Is sex allowed only preocretive purposes in Sri Vaishnavism?

[orlando]

Namaste all.
In the post Question about the 4th principle in ISCKON Shri ram wrote:This so called charge against the 4th principle in ISKCON is equally applicable to Srivaishnavas as well, where it is an unwritten rule.
Shri Arjuna replied:In most cases an "unwritten" rule is an imagined one.
This is not a kinda secret teaching, but a rule of conduct, which either is present in Vaishnava-dharma or absent from it.

Dharma is clearly put in Shastras. Since this "4th principle" is absent from Vedas and Dharma-shastras, it has to be at least written down in Vaishnava scriptures.
Till now the only reference is a verse from Bhagavata, which was told in regard of materialists and NOT devotees.

Thus, most probably it simply doesn't exist as a rule.

Also, i strongly doubt that all Shrivaishnavas will agree with what U said

My questions is:if a married Shri Vaishnava makes love (which is very different from making sex) with his/her partner even for not procreative purposes,is this considered a sin its-self?

Regards,
Orlando.

[Arjuna]

Namaste,

I am also very much interested to see any scriptural proofs of either position — of course from Vaishnava canon, especially Agamic and Upanishadic.

[orlando]

I don't know if the following may be useful in the discussion.
It is Brhadaranyaka Upanishad.
I-iv-1: In the beginning, this (universe) was but the self (Viraj) of a human form. He reflected and found nothing else but himself. He first uttered, '‘ am he'’ Therefore he was called Aham (I). Hence, to this day, when a person is addressed, he first says, ‘It is I,’ and then says the other name that he may have. Because he was first and before this whole (band of aspirants) burnt all evils, therefore he is called Purusha. He who knows thus indeed burns one who wants to be (Viraj) before him.
I-iv-2: He was afraid. Therefore people (still) are afraid to be alone. He thought, ‘If there is nothing else but me, what am I afraid of ?’ From that alone his fear was gone, for what was there to fear ? It is from a second entity that fear comes.
I-iv-3: He was not at all happy. Therefore people (still) are not happy when alone. He desired a mate. He became as big as man and wife embracing each other. He parted this very body into two. From that came husband and wife. Therefore, said Yajnavalkya, this (body) is one-half of oneself, like one of the two halves of a split pea. Therefore this space is indeed filled by the wife. He was united with her. From that men were born.


Regards,
Orlando.

[orlando]

The following verses are from Atharva Veda.
VII.36.The eyes of us two shine like honey, our foreheads gleam like ointment. Place me within thy heart; may one mind be in common to us both!
VII.37.I envelope thee in my garment that was produced by Manu (the first man), that thou shalt be mine alone, shalt not even discourse of other women!

Regards,
Orlando.

[orlando]

Namaste all.
Finally I found the answer.Sex between married Sri Vaishnava is not allowed only for procreative purposes.Vishnu Purana is the sacrest and most important purana for Sri Vaishnavas.I found the answer in Sri Vishnu Purana,Book 3,capitolo 11.
By http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/vp/vp085.htm
SAGARA again said to Aurva, "Relate to me, Muni, the fixed observances of the householder, by attending to which he will never be rejected from this world or the next."

Aurva replied to him thus: "Listen, prince, to an account of those perpetual observances, by adhering to which both worlds are subdued. Those who are called Sádhus (saints) are they who are free from all defects; and the term Sat means the same, or Sádhu: those practices or observances (Ácháras) which they follow are therefore called Sadácháras, the institutions or observances of the pious 1.' The seven Rishis, the Manus, the patriarchs, are they who have enjoined and who have practised these observances. Let the wise man awake in the Muhúrtta of Brahmá. (or in the third Muhúrtta, about two hours before sunrise), and with a composed mind meditate on two of the objects of life (virtue and wealth), and on topics not incompatible with them. Let him also think upon desire, as not conflicting with the other two; and thus contemplate with equal indifference the three ends of life, for the purpose of counter- acting the unseen consequences of good or evil acts. Let him avoid wealth and desire, if they give uneasiness to virtue; and abstain from virtuous or religious acts, if they involve misery, or are censured by the world 2.

.......................
"After eating his evening meal, and having washed his feet, the householder is to go to rest. His bed is to be entire, and made of wood: it is not to be scanty, nor cracked, nor uneven, nor dirty, nor infested by insects,


p. 309

nor without a bedding: and he is to sleep with his head either to the east or to the south; any other position is unhealthy. In due season a man should approach his wife, when a fortunate asterism prevails, in an auspicious moment, and on even nights, if she is not unbathed, sick, unwell, averse, angry, pregnant, hungry, or over-fed. He should be also free from similar imperfections, should be neatly attired and adorned, and animated by tenderness and affection. There are certain days on which unguents, flesh, and women are unlawful, as the eighth and fourteenth. lunar days, new moon and full moon 20, and the entrance of the sun into a new sign. On these occasions the wise will restrain their appetites, and occupy themselves in the worship of the gods, as enjoined by holy writ, in meditation, and in prayer; and he who behaves differently will fall into a hell where ordure will be his food. Let not a man stimulate his desires by medicines, nor gratify them with unnatural objects, or in public or holy places. Let him not think incontinently of another's wife, much less address her to that end; for such a man will be born in future life as a creeping insect. He who commits adultery is punished both here and hereafter; for his days in this world are cut short, and when dead he falls into hell. Thus considering, let a man approach his own wife in the proper season, or even at other times."

Regards,
Orlando.

[Jalasayanan]

Manu Smriti Chap 3

45. Let (the husband) approach his wife in due season, being constantly satisfied with her (alone); he may also, being intent on pleasing her, approach her with a desire for conjugal union (on any day) excepting the Parvans.
46. Sixteen (days and) nights (in each month), including four days which differ from the rest and are censured by the virtuous, (are called) the natural season of women.
47. But among these the first four, the eleventh and the thirteenth are (declared to be) forbidden; the remaining nights are recommended.
48. On the even nights sons are conceived and daughters on the uneven ones; hence a man who desires to have sons should approach his wife in due season on the even (nights).
49. A male child is produced by a greater quantity of male seed, a female child by the prevalence of the female; if (both are) equal, a hermaphrodite or a boy and a girl; if (both are) weak or deficient in quantity, a failure of conception (results).
50. He who avoids women on the six forbidden nights and on eight others, is (equal in chastity to) a student, in whichever order he may live.

This is what is said on Conjugal Union. Many try to take sloka 45 out of context (ignoring the other parts) and declare Conjugal union is only for Love

Whereas, Smritikaraka clearly proceeds in further slokas about the results of conjugal union. No where he had mentioned it can be made for entertainment, but he has categorically mentioned the results as "for Procreative purposes". Hence we can safely conclude, for srivaishnavas conjugal union is only for procreative purposes only

[Jalasayanan]

Further in Chap 4

13. A Brahmana, who is a Snataka and subsists by one of the (above-mentioned) modes of life, must discharge the (following) duties which secure heavenly bliss, long life, and fame.
14. Let him, untired, perform daily the rites prescribed for him in the Veda; for he who performs those according to his ability, attains to the highest state.
15. Whether he be rich or even in distress, let him not seek wealth through pursuits to which men cleave, nor by forbidden occupations, nor (let him accept presents) from any (giver whosoever he may be).
16. Let him not, out of desire (for enjoyments), attach himself to any sensual pleasures, and let him carefully obviate an excessive attachment to them, by (reflecting on their worthlessness in) his heart.

Of course, this is meant only to Brahmanas

More restrictions are given

43. Let him not eat in the company of his wife, nor look at her, while she eats, sneezes, yawns, or sits at her ease.
44. A Brahmana who desires energy must not look at (a woman) who applies collyrium to her eyes, has anointed or uncovered herself or brings forth (a child).

Thus love making as said in English is different from love making for Brahmans as such

As I am not a master of rules made for other varnis, I think I should abstain from making comments on them

If you have any doubts pls do buzz me

[TruthSeeker]

Read this article
http://www.trsiyengar.com/id26.html

It specifically states:

And according to Srivaishnava Siddhantam Sex is only for a Progeny to serve the Lord Sriman Narayanan, and nothing more to it!

You cant even aspire for a child other than for a reason to serve Lord Narayana through the child.

[orlando]

Namaste all.
Shri Jalasayanan,of course there are different rules for different varnas.A brahmana must have much self-control.A kshatriya is made for a life of pleasure,marry more than one wife,etc.

[Arjuna]

Manu Smriti Chap 3
This is what is said on Conjugal Union. Many try to take sloka 45 out of context (ignoring the other parts) and declare Conjugal union is only for Love
Whereas, Smritikaraka clearly proceeds in further slokas about the results of conjugal union. No where he had mentioned it can be made for entertainment, but he has categorically mentioned the results as "for Procreative purposes". Hence we can safely conclude, for srivaishnavas conjugal union is only for procreative purposes only

45. Let (the husband) approach his wife in due season, being constantly satisfied with her (alone); he may also, being intent on pleasing her, approach her with a desire for conjugal union (on any day) excepting the Parvans.

From this it is very clear that sex is also for enjoyment and ultimately for mutual love.

This is confirmed by Shruti: Brihadaranyaka Upanishad even gives directions how to PREVENT procreation while enjoying sex!

Where is the evidence that sex is only for procreation? None is there.
But there are evidences for the opposite, both in Shruti and Smriti.