Is sex allowed only preocretive purposes in Sri Vaishnavism?

[Arjuna]

Arjuna,
You demanded scriptural references, which were immediately supplied from Manu Smriti ~ and Manu is certainly valid for ALL orthodox Sampradayas.
This thread is responding to the question, "Is sex allowed only for procreative purposes in Shri Vaishnavism?".
You seem to be refusing to read the whole passage from Manu in its context, and you have merely picked at a couple of words taken out of context (just as was predicted by Jalasayanan) and then denied that any proper reference was ever given!
Shri Vaishnava is the most orthodox of all Vaishnava Sampradayas, and the words of Manu should be sufficient for them.
The opinions of Shaiva-Siddhanta are quite irrelevant here!

Namaste,

1. I cannot see how from mentioned passages of Manu-smriti it comes that sex is only for procreation. If U see, please explain.
It simply talks more about procreation and implies that enjoyment is also OK. I have read the context and even provided original verse to show that my interpretation is accurate. If U may prove otherwise, please.
2. I have provided a reference from Brihadaranyaka, which complements Manu extract. Which again proves that sexual act is not only for procreation. Isn't Brihadaranyaka a sufficient orthodox authority?
3. Saiva Siddhanta Church holds rather orthodox positions in Dharma matters, and accepts Smriti authority. I mentioned it only to illustrate what is the orthodox view.

Hope this clarifies the issue

I deem U are wrong in this case for one more reason:
The same Manu-smriti says: na mAMsabhakShaNe doSho na madye na ca maithune. Would U insist that it speaks here of procreation (which is a duty and not pleasure), telling that there is no sin in it? And then Smriti adds that abstinance brings benefit! In the context it appears that sex is acknowledged primarily as a means of procreation, but as enjoyment it is allowed (in frames of Smarta-dharma). In other words, Manu-smriti accepts both values of sexual act, which is in accordance with Shruti (as demonstrated with Brihadaranyaka passage).

Expect Ur reply on this.

[orlando]

Namaste all.
Again Sri Vishnu Purana,Book 3,capitolo 11.
By http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/vp/vp085.htm
SAGARA again said to Aurva, "Relate to me, Muni, the fixed observances of the householder, by attending to which he will never be rejected from this world or the next."

Aurva replied to him thus: "Listen, prince, to an account of those perpetual observances, by adhering to which both worlds are subdued. Those who are called Sádhus (saints) are they who are free from all defects; and the term Sat means the same, or Sádhu: those practices or observances (Ácháras) which they follow are therefore called Sadácháras, the institutions or observances of the pious 1.' The seven Rishis, the Manus, the patriarchs, are they who have enjoined and who have practised these observances. Let the wise man awake in the Muhúrtta of Brahmá. (or in the third Muhúrtta, about two hours before sunrise), and with a composed mind meditate on two of the objects of life (virtue and wealth), and on topics not incompatible with them. Let him also think upon desire, as not conflicting with the other two; and thus contemplate with equal indifference the three ends of life, for the purpose of counter- acting the unseen consequences of good or evil acts. Let him avoid wealth and desire, if they give uneasiness to virtue; and abstain from virtuous or religious acts, if they involve misery, or are censured by the world 2.

.......................
"After eating his evening meal, and having washed his feet, the householder is to go to rest. His bed is to be entire, and made of wood: it is not to be scanty, nor cracked, nor uneven, nor dirty, nor infested by insects,


p. 309

nor without a bedding: and he is to sleep with his head either to the east or to the south; any other position is unhealthy. In due season a man should approach his wife, when a fortunate asterism prevails, in an auspicious moment, and on even nights, if she is not unbathed, sick, unwell, averse, angry, pregnant, hungry, or over-fed. He should be also free from similar imperfections, should be neatly attired and adorned, and animated by tenderness and affection. There are certain days on which unguents, flesh, and women are unlawful, as the eighth and fourteenth. lunar days, new moon and full moon 20, and the entrance of the sun into a new sign. On these occasions the wise will restrain their appetites, and occupy themselves in the worship of the gods, as enjoined by holy writ, in meditation, and in prayer; and he who behaves differently will fall into a hell where ordure will be his food. Let not a man stimulate his desires by medicines, nor gratify them with unnatural objects, or in public or holy places. Let him not think incontinently of another's wife, much less address her to that end; for such a man will be born in future life as a creeping insect. He who commits adultery is punished both here and hereafter; for his days in this world are cut short, and when dead he falls into hell. Thus considering, let a man approach his own wife in the proper season, or even at other times."

Of course Shri Vishnu Purana is more authoritative than Manu Smrti!
Vishnu Purana was wrote by Srila Vyasadeva Bhagavan.Manu Smrti was wrote by Manu.
Vishnu Purana is the sacrest and most important purana for Sri Vaishnavas.
Regards,
Orlando.

[Singhi Kaya]

Namaste BoG,

Thanks for all the quotes and to others as well. I think it has been demonstrated beyond doubt that sex as an expression of love and enjoyment is very much in tune hinduism in general unless it becomes adultry or some such asurik activity. However each sampradaya has it's own interpretation of sastras, I'm not yet sure what should be the Sri-Viashnava interpretation, on the face of it the 4th principle looks an overdone. I think at this point one needs to take guidance from direct masters and ask for openion. If you find overwhelming number of sri-vaishnavas following 4th principle then there isn't much way I'm afraid .
You can then question yourself for suitability of the path etc.

I only want to say that this matter finally rest in the hands of sri-vaishnava acharyas. We can form our openions which can be convincing to us~indeed may be true, but should be of sceondary importance when still a practioner of the tradition.

My own understanding is to try to stay above medevial sectarianism of the sanatana dharma and get out the best. However those who want to follow the most orthodox interpretations should be free to do so. If someone is happy with sex only once in a month or so, what's the issue ? We should not be trying to prove that they are wrong unless it is only for a certain person in a proper context.

My humble openion on this matter.

[sarabhanga]

Manu Smriti, III:

6. In connecting himself with a wife, let him carefully avoid the ten following families, be they ever so great, or rich in kine, horses, sheep, grain, or (other) property,

7. (Viz.) one which neglects the sacred rites, one in which no male children (are born), one in which the Veda is not studied …

If only love or personal enjoyment was being considered here, then the various material riches that could be gained by a marriage would important; and the importance of bearing male children is second only to keeping the sacred rites!

20. Now listen to (the) brief (description of) the following eight marriage-rites used by the four castes (varna) which partly secure benefits and partly produce evil both in this life and after death.

21. (They are) the rite of Brahman (Brahma), that of the gods (Daiva), that of the Rishis (Arsha), that of Pragapati (Pragapatya), that of the Asuras (Asura), that of the Gandharvas (Gandharva), that of the Rhashasas (Rakshasa), and that of the Pisakas (Paisaka).

22. Which is lawful for each caste (varna) and which are the virtues or faults of each (rite), all this I will declare to you, as well as their good and evil results with respect to the offspring.

Thus introducing a description of the various marriages and their resulting offspring ~ not the only reason for marriage, but the primary reason for spiritual purposes.

23. One may know that the first six according to the order (followed above) are lawful for a Brahmana, the four last for a Kshatriya, and the same four, excepting the Rakshasa rite, for a Vaisya and a Sudra.

24. The sages state that the first four are approved (in the case) of a Brahmana, one, the Rakshasa (rite in the case) of a Kshatriya, and the Asura (marriage in that) of a Vaisya and of a Sudra.

25. But in these (Institutes of the sacred law) three of the five (last) are declared to be lawful and two unlawful; the Paisaka and the Asura (rites) must never be used.

26. For Kshatriyas those before-mentioned two rites, the Gandharva and the Rakshasa, whether separate or mixed, are permitted by the sacred tradition.

27. The gift of a daughter, after decking her (with costly garments) and honouring (her by presents of jewels), to a man learned in the Veda and of good conduct, whom (the father) himself invites, is called the Brahma rite.

28. The gift of a daughter who has been decked with ornaments, to a priest who duly officiates at a sacrifice, during the course of its performance, they call the Daiva rite.

29. When (the father) gives away his daughter according to the rule, after receiving from the bridegroom, for (the fulfillment of) the sacred law, a cow and a bull or two pairs, that is named the Arsha rite.

30. The gift of a daughter (by her father) after he has addressed (the couple) with the text, 'May both of you perform together your duties,' and has shown honour (to the bridegroom), is called in the Smriti the Pragapatya rite.

31. When (the bridegroom) receives a maiden, after having given as much wealth as he can afford, to the kinsmen and to the bride herself, according to his own will, that is called the Asura rite.

32. The voluntary union of a maiden and her lover one must know (to be) the Gandharva rite, which springs from desire and has sexual intercourse for its purpose.

33. The forcible abduction of a maiden from her home, while she cries out and weeps, after (her kinsmen) have been slain or wounded and (their houses) broken open, is called the Rakshasa rite.

34. When (a man) by stealth seduces a girl who is sleeping, intoxicated, or disordered in intellect, that is the eighth, the most base and sinful rite of the Pisakas.

A marriage based only in mutual desire, with intercourse performed for its own sake, with no consideration of potential offspring, is the Gandharva rite; and this is certainly declared to be lawful for all Varnas.

36. Listen now to me, ye Brahmanas, while I fully declare what quality has been ascribed by Manu to each of these marriage-rites.

37. The son of a wife wedded according to the Brahma rite, if he performs meritorious acts, liberates from sin ten ancestors, ten descendants and himself as the twenty-first.

38. The son born of a wife, wedded according to the Daiva rite, likewise (saves) seven ancestors and seven descendants, the son of a wife married by the Arsha rite three (in the ascending and descending lines), and the son of a wife married by the rite of Ka (Pragapati) six (in either line).

39. From the four marriages, (enumerated) successively, which begin with the Brahma rite spring sons, radiant with knowledge of the Veda and honoured by the Sishtas (good men).

40. Endowded with the qualities of beauty and goodness, possessing wealth and fame, obtaining as many enjoyments as they desire and being most righteous, they will live a hundred years.

41. But from the remaining (four) blamable marriages spring sons who are cruel and speakers of untruth, who hate the Veda and the sacred law.

And those four “blameable marriages” are the Asura, Gandharva, Rakshasa, and Paisaka, marriage rites.

42. In the blameless marriages blameless children are born to men, in blamable (marriages) blamable (offspring); one should therefore avoid the blamable (forms of marriage).

It is clear that the traditional spiritual importance of the union of a man and a women is in their conception and consequent production of a child (especially a male heir).

45. Let (the husband) approach his wife in due season, being constantly satisfied with her (alone); he may also, being intent on pleasing her, approach her with a desire for conjugal union (on any day) excepting the Parvans.

46. Sixteen (days and) nights (in each month), including four days which differ from the rest and are censured by the virtuous, (are called) the natural season of women.

47. But among these the first four, the eleventh and the thirteenth are (declared to be) forbidden; the remaining nights are recommended.

48. On the even nights sons are conceived and daughters on the uneven ones; hence a man who desires to have sons should approach his wife in due season on the even (nights).

49. A male child is produced by a greater quantity of male seed, a female child by the prevalence of the female; if (both are) equal, a hermaphrodite or a boy and a girl; if (both are) weak or deficient in quantity, a failure of conception (results).

50. He who avoids women on the six forbidden nights and on eight others, is (equal in chastity to) a student, in whichever order he may live.

60. In that family, where the husband is pleased with his wife and the wife with her husband, happiness will assuredly be lasting.

61. For if the wife is not radiant with beauty, she will not attract her husband; but if she has no attractions for him, no children will be born.

The main purpose of marriage (i.e. sexual relations) in traditional Hindu Dharma is the best possible conception of children and the best raising of a perfect heir to the sacred inheritance of both families.


Hindu marriage is a sacred vow that only makes sense in the context of procreation.

You can say what you like about Shaiva Siddhanta, but the correct position for all Shri Vaishnavas is that sexual intercourse is intended primarily for procreation.

Sex is certainly not intrinsically wrong or sinful; but, for those who understand the true position of sex and marriage in the context of Dharma, to engage in sexual relations without thought of procreation is surely Adharma.

[sarabhanga]

And since Manu Smriti 5.56 has also been cited out of context …

Manu Smriti, V:

3. Righteous Bhrigu, the son of Manu, (thus) answered the great sages: Hear, (in punishment) of what faults Death seeks to shorten the lives of Brahmanas!

4. Through neglect of the Veda-study, through deviation from the rule of conduct, through remissness (in the fulfillment of duties), and through faults (committed by eating forbidden) food, Death becomes eager to shorten the lives of Brahmanas.

7. Rice boiled with sesamum, wheat mixed with butter, milk and sugar, milk-rice and flour-cakes which are not prepared for a sacrifice, meat which has not been sprinkled with water while sacred texts were recited, food offered to the gods and sacrificial viands,

8. The milk of a cow (or other female animal) within ten days after her calving, that of camels, of one-hoofed animals, of sheep, of a cow in heat, or of one that has no calf with her,

9. (The milk) of all wild animals excepting buffalo-cows, that of women, and all (substances turned) sour must be avoided.

So that non-ritual meat-consumption must surely be avoided.

22. Beasts and birds recommended (for consumption) may be slain by Brahmanas for sacrifices, and in order to feed those whom they are bound to maintain; for Agastya did this of old.

23. For in ancient (times) the sacrificial cakes were (made of the flesh) of eatable beasts and birds at the sacrifices offered by Brahmanas and Kshatriyas.

26. Thus has the food, allowed and forbidden to twice-born men, been fully described; I will now propound the rules for eating and avoiding meat.

27. One may eat meat when it has been sprinkled with water, while Mantras were recited, when Brahmanas desire (one’s doing it), when one is engaged (in the performance of a rite) according to the law, and when one's life is in danger.

31. The consumption of meat (is befitting) for sacrifices, that is declared to be a rule made by the gods; but to persist (in using it) on other (occasions) is said to be a proceeding worthy of Rakshasas.

32. He who eats meat, when he honours the gods and manes, commits no sin, whether he has bought it, or himself has killed (the animal), or has received it as a present from others.

33. A twice-born man who knows the law, must not eat meat except in conformity with the law; for if he has eaten it unlawfully, he will, unable to save himself, be eaten after death by his (victims).

34. After death the guilt of one who slays deer for gain is not as (great) as that of him who eats meat for no (sacred) purpose.

36. A Brahmana must never eat (the flesh) of animals unhallowed by Mantras; but, obedient to the primeval law, he may eat it, consecrated with Vedic texts.

37. If he has a strong desire (for meat) he may make an animal of clarified butter or one of flour, (and eat that); but let him never seek to destroy an animal without a (lawful) reason.

38. As many hairs as the slain beast has, so often indeed will he who killed it without a (lawful) reason suffer a violent death in future births.

39. Svayambhu (the Self-existent) himself created animals for the sake of sacrifices; sacrifices (have been instituted) for the good of this whole (world); hence the slaughtering (of beasts) for sacrifices is not slaughtering (in the ordinary sense of the word).

40. Herbs, trees, cattle, birds, and (other) animals that have been destroyed for sacrifices, receive (being reborn) higher existences.

41. On offering the honey-mixture (to a guest), at a sacrifice and at the rites in honour of the manes, but on these occasions only, may an animal be slain; that (rule) Manu proclaimed.

42. A twice-born man who, knowing the true meaning of the Veda, slays an animal for these purposes, causes both himself and the animal to enter a most blessed state.

43. A twice-born man of virtuous disposition, whether he dwells in (his own) house, with a teacher, or in the forest, must never, even in times of distress, cause an injury (to any creature) which is not sanctioned by the Veda.

44. Know that the injury to moving creatures and to those destitute of motion, which the Veda has prescribed for certain occasions, is no injury at all; for the sacred law shone forth from the Veda.

45. He who injures harmless beings from a wish to (give) himself pleasure, never finds happiness, neither living nor dead.

46. He who does not seek to cause the sufferings of bonds and death to living creatures, (but) desires the good of all (beings), obtains endless bliss.

47. He who does not injure any (creature), attains without an effort what he thinks of, what he undertakes, and what he fixes his mind on.

48. Meat can never be obtained without injury to living creatures, and injury to sentient beings is detrimental to (the attainment of) heavenly bliss; let him therefore shun (the use of) meat.

49. Having well considered the (disgusting) origin of flesh and the (cruelty of) fettering and slaying corporeal beings, let him entirely abstain from eating flesh.

50. He who, disregarding the rule (given above), does not eat meat like a Pisaka, becomes dear to men, and will not be tormented by diseases.

51. He who permits (the slaughter of an animal), he who cuts it up, he who kills it, he who buys or sells (meat), he who cooks it, he who serves it up, and he who eats it, (must all be considered as) the slayers (of the animal).

52. There is no greater sinner than that (man) who, though not worshipping the gods or the manes, seeks to increase (the bulk of) his own flesh by the flesh of other (beings).

53. He who during a hundred years annually offers a horse-sacrifice, and he who entirely abstains from meat, obtain the same reward for their meritorious (conduct).

54. By subsisting on pure fruit and roots, and by eating food fit for ascetics (in the forest), one does not gain (so great) a reward as by entirely avoiding (the use of) flesh.

55. “Me he (mam sah)” will devour in the next (world), whose flesh I eat in this (life); the wise declare this (to be) the real meaning of the word “flesh” (mamsah).

56. There is no sin in eating meat, in (drinking) spirituous liquor, and in carnal intercourse, for that is the natural way of created beings, but abstention brings great rewards.

The intention here is clear ~ there is no sin in eating meat or in sexual relations (for it is only natural for all animals), but those who are intent on Brahmajnana and ultimate Moksha are advised to abstain.

[Arjuna]

Namaste Sarabhanga,

Hindu marriage is a sacred vow that only makes sense in the context of procreation.
You can say what you like about Shaiva Siddhanta, but the correct position for all Shri Vaishnavas is that sexual intercourse is intended primarily for procreation.

I never rejected this point, it is rather clear that for Smriti main purpose of sex is procreation — but, again, not the ONLY.
Provided passages simply prove this.
So, it's OK to say that Smriti accepts procreation as a main reason of sex/marriage, but it is wrong to say that sexual act is only for procreation!

Sex is certainly not intrinsically wrong or sinful; but, for those who understand the true position of sex and marriage in the context of Dharma, to engage in sexual relations without thought of procreation is surely Adharma.

I haven't seen any passage telling this. But i have shown a passage from Brihadaranyaka (which is more authorative than Manavadharma-shastra) which accepts such a case as lawful.

[Arjuna]

56. There is no sin in eating meat, in (drinking) spirituous liquor, and in carnal intercourse, for that is the natural way of created beings, but abstention brings great rewards.
The intention here is clear ~ there is no sin in eating meat or in sexual relations (for it is only natural for all animals), but those who are intent on Brahmajnana and ultimate Moksha are advised to abstain.

Namaste,

Verily for animals sexual act is restricted to procreation alone
Only for humans sex is an aspect of love, and not mere procreation instinct.

I am well aware of Manu-smriti advising to abstain from these three. And still, this verse implies that there is no sin in sex as enjoyment (and this has nothing to do with "all animals") and thus enjoyement — or more precisely, love — is a second (additional acc. to Smriti, but lawful and valid) aim of marriage and sexual act.

Am i wrong?

[sarabhanga]

Arjuna,

How many times must it be repeated that the whole of this thread has been concerning the opinions of orthodox Shri Vaishnavas?

For such a question as this, your comments remain completely irrelevant!

No further comment.

[Arjuna]

Arjuna,
How many times must it be repeated that the whole of this thread has been concerning the opinions of orthodox Shri Vaishnavas?
For such a question as this, your comments remain completely irrelevant!
No further comment.

Namaste Sarabhanga,

It is not me who selected Manu-smriti to prove my position, but Jalasayanan, a Shrivaishnava.
And it is U who accused me of misinterpretation of Smriti.

I cannot see in which way U proved my position to be wrong...

I will try to find out specific references to Shrivaishnava scriptures. Till then i keep quiet on this theme. Hope i will be able to present exact proofs of my point

[kimtadbrahma]

Namaste Sarabanga. I am a little surprised to see you citing the Manu Smriti as authoritative. Is that an acceptable position to adopt? There are passages from Manu that must be deemed unacceptable and hence its authoritative status must be questioned (I am thinking of the exclusion of outcastes, child brides and female subservience).

On the issue of sexuality, my understanding has always been that Hinduism as a whole accepts sexual pleasure as one of the goals in life. It is the first of the purusharthas and Hindu dharma accepts it as such. It is only those who have renounced the world and embarked upon the moksha dharma who are advised to practise celibacy or celibate tendencies. That would certainly include the followers of Ramanuja, for Sri Vaishnavism is a part of the nivritti marg. My understanding was that tantric sexuality was something different as it was not primarily for pleasure but as a means of gaining yogic power. In these exceptional circumstances sexuality becomes a part of the moksha dharma.

Hindu dharma has many facets and moksha dharma is but one of these. I suspect that it was Western condemnation of the more liberal Hindu sexual ethics that led to an increase in puritanical attitudes. The erotic carvings found on some Hindu temples are evidence of an alternative morality prevailing in previous ages.