The Material Cause...

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

Have you pondered the notion of this Universe and its creation? That is, He (śiva) has created all that there is yet without any material means. And/or the notion the He is the material cause for all this to happen - would He not then be used up? Just as the disappearance of of lump of clay that is used-up to create a urn or pot?

This is taken up in the Spandakarikas� and brings out the beautiful knowledge that the subject or pramātā ( from pramā - to form , create , make ready , arrange) + the object or prameya (an object of certain knowledge , the thing to be proved or the topic to be discussed ) and the means of knowing (pramana or means of acquiring) exists in and of śiva. That is to say, there is nothing for śiva to be used up for.

As we have mentioned the clay becomes the pot , yet its essence has not changed, it is still the clay, just as gold remains gold in a ring or a golden chalice.

Many say that the world rests in śiva. While this is a reasonable view for a passing conversation, it is not as if the world is contained in Him like an apple residing in a brown bag, where the apple has its own independent existence. So when one says the world ( the material universe both subtle and gross) comes out from him the world and śiva are not separate. Śiva without effort remains both the transcendent and the material creation - both viśvottīrna and viśvamaya.

He is not concealed as the world owes its existence to Him. He is not limited by space or time ( concealment , constraint or boundary). Yet it takes one with enlightened vision to see this or unmilana samādhi; unmīlana or the act of opening the eyes. That act of remaining in that even-ness , samādhi, (union , a whole , aggregate) while the eyes are open, the world is viewed as Universal Consciousness, śiva.

This IMHO Is worthy of ones focus and attention in this world... your thoughts and discussion on this matter is warmly welcomed.

ॐनमःिशवाय


pranams


1.Spandakarika - Chapt 1, starting with karika (kArikA) 2.
2. Posted during śiva yoga ( a dina or nitra yoga)

[suresh]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

Have you pondered the notion of this Universe and its creation? That is, He (śiva) has created all that there is yet without any material means. And/or the notion the He is the material cause for all this to happen - would He not then be used up? Just as the disappearance of of lump of clay that is used-up to create a urn or pot?

This is taken up in the Spandakarikas� and brings out the beautiful knowledge that the subject or pramātā ( from pramā - the to form , create , make ready , arrange) + the object or prameya (an object of certain knowledge , the thing to be proved or the topic to be discussed ) and the means of knowing (pramana or means of acquiring) exists in and of śiva. That is to say, there is nothing for śiva to be used up for.

As we have mentioned the clay becomes the pot , yet its essence has not changed, it is still the clay, just as gold remains gold in a ring or a golden chalice.

Many say that the world rests in śiva. While this is a reasonable view for a passing conversation, it is not as if the world is contained in Him like an apple residing in a brown bag, where the apple has its own independent existence. So when one says the world ( the material universe both subtle and gross) comes out from him the world and śiva are not separate. Śiva without effort remains both the transcendent and the material creation - both viśvottīrna and viśvamaya.

He is not concealed as the world owes its existence to Him. He is not limited by space or time ( concealment , constraint or boundary). Yet it takes one with enlightened vision to see this or unmilana samādhi; unmīlana or the act of opening the eyes. That act of remaining in that even-ness , samādhi, (union , a whole , aggregate) while the eyes are open, the world is viewed as Universal Consciousness, śiva.



This IMHO Is worthy of ones focus and attention in this world... your toughts and discussion on this matter is warmly welcomed.

Namaste Yajvan,

The q will arise as to whether clay and clay pot are one. If so, God and world will be one, meaning all the flaws of this world will be attributed to God. If not, we must treat god and world as distinct, so the q remains as to how he created the world, the material cause.

OTOH, if we say there is both oneness and distinction, there may not be any praamana that the material cause could be one with, and distinct from, the effect. Normally, the material cause is considered one with the effect, if not, we're questioning the very substratum, the basis and the foundation of the object.

So all three options are going to be a problem. Better to consider prakriti as wholly different from Brahman. That way, no problem could arise. And because Vedanta considers both to be anadi, the q as to which came first, or whether one created the other will not arise.

Suresh

[atanu]

Namaste Yajvan,

--Better to consider prakriti as wholly different from Brahman. That way, no problem could arise. And because Vedanta considers both to be anadi, the q as to which came first, or whether one created the other will not arise.

Suresh

Namaste Suresh,

What is prakriti?

Om

[Znanna]

Namaste,

and (a belated) welcome to HDF, suresh, I'm looking forward to reading more of your thoughts

And, dear atanu beat me to the punch, with his question, "What is prakriti?"



ZN

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Suresh and all,

" The q will arise as to whether clay and clay pot are one. If so, God and world will be one, meaning all the flaws of this world will be attributed to God."

The evil one?!!

Flaws are politics! And there are no good policies.
Even all the corpus of advaita must dissolve in the end. As any good intellectual knows to stay firm in your method and general propositions is always the best way.

I would like to share this poem from David Tibet with you all!
I hope it will be enjoyable by all.

"
They returned to their earth

When serpents come
They cover the Christ thorn
Two heads
And cock heads
Serpents feet of emotion
Lidded eyes and smudged reality
Everything has two faces
One is earthly without true form
The other blackened and blackening

And mother is in the fields
Father is in the fields

You know well its tortured form
It's locked within a particular place
It's locked within a particular form
It's jailed by a falling light
With angles shapes and size
It's held by true what
It's held in through place
It's an aim that has no name

And mother is in the fields
Father is in the fields

It's a form creating formless
Formless creating form
Oh four towers reaping backwards
Do not spell the sound
Do not move to the lies
Speak the words and they create the universe
And they destroy all universe

And mother sleeps in the fields
Father he reaps in the fields

Heavy-lidded eyes do not mask his pain
They shade us from the burning light
Listen one face one form one truth
I see it through the shading glass
I see it fractured in the world
This is not true
It's appearance only

And mother is in the fields
Father is in the fields

An eagle flies his bloody face
Behind bloody claws behind bloody claws
His pain is blackened rain
His rain is Roman
Sire the pain it is not finished
I happens now
Matchstick man in a matchstick world
Nake the prime slice the sickle
Nake the sickle slice the core
Time stops when he was thirty-three

And mother is in the fields
Father is in the fields

Time stops when i am thirty
Time stops then and time stops there
Then is now
Oh why do we not say it
Time stops time breaks time folds
Time ceases
And pestle grindes the mortar
The mortar turns to dust
The metal turns to rust
Words they fail they fall apart
The corn it dies and is reborn

And mother stays in the fields
Father is in the fields

Blond hair moves in the blond corn
Boyd wears black he talks of death
But all his faces spell out light's on the roof
He's kissing a rose
A blood drop comes from the heart of her life
Something hangs above there in the skies
Something hovers above his brown hair
Life without us in the background of light
And the birds don't sing
When the curtain snaps
Anita's in Ireland
She's falling over rocks
Stars of the sky stars of the pain
And all stars meet in a falling star
And some make money from weapons' blood
And some make money from fear's blood
And some make money from hunger's blood
And some make money from politics' blood
And some make money from religion's blood
The world falls apart
The world starts to cease

And mother is in the fields
And father has died in the fields"



Om namah shivaya!

[sarabhanga]

Even all the corpus of advaita must dissolve in the end.

Namaste Nuno,

The advaita corpus of nara is imperishable!

The advaita corpus of nara is brahma, the unbounded and unborn sadAshivali�ga, which is sat.

And without the sat of advaitam there is only shUnyam (as �nonentity or absolute non-existence�).

advaitam may be described as being shUnyam (as �empty, barren, desolate, deserted, vacant, having no certain object or aim, possessing nothing, wholly destitute, wholly alone or solitary, having no friends or companions, free from sensation, insensible, bare, naked, guileless, innocent, or indifferent�), but not as �non-existent, absent, unreal, or nonsensical�.

And nara (brahma) may be referred to as shUnyA (as �a barren woman�), or shUnyam (as �a cypher, space or heaven�), but not as shUnyam in the strict sense of �nonentity or absolute non-existence�.

The unmarked eternal corpus of brahma is the elysian field, the shUnyarAjya (�kingless kingdom�), itself without parentage or age, and without which there is no existence (eternal or otherwise).

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Sri Sarabhanga Giri,

" The advaita corpus of nara is imperishable!"

Dear friend I agree with you totally in what concerns the above said. I was talking about the theoretic corpus not the metaphysical one.

Om namah shivaya!

[Bob G]

Hello Sarabhanga,

Excuse me, what exactly is meant by "Advaita corpus"...do you mean written texts and spoken teachings?

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Bob,

I was using corpus in the sense of body, as the infinite corpse of nara, the immaculate self of brahma ~ the ali�gali�gam of sadAshiva, the shUnyarAjya, the brahmayoni, nirvANam, etc.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,

The q will arise as to whether clay and clay pot are one. If so, God and world will be one, meaning all the flaws of this world will be attributed to God. If not, we must treat god and world as distinct, so the q remains as to how he created the world, the material cause.

OTOH, if we say there is both oneness and distinction, there may not be any praamana that the material cause could be one with, and distinct from, the effect. Normally, the material cause is considered one with the effect, if not, we're questioning the very substratum, the basis and the foundation of the object.

So all three options are going to be a problem. Better to consider prakriti as wholly different from Brahman. That way, no problem could arise. And because Vedanta considers both to be anadi, the q as to which came first, or whether one created the other will not arise.

Suresh

Namaste suresh,
And thank you for your post. I am in hopes you wish to poke around at this thought:

Better to consider prakriti as wholly different from Brahman

What are your thoughts on this matter? How do you see prakriti and its differences to Brahman?

pranams