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Thread: The Material Cause...

  1. #1
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    The Material Cause...

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste,

    Have you pondered the notion of this Universe and its creation? That is, He (śiva) has created all that there is yet without any material means. And/or the notion the He is the material cause for all this to happen - would He not then be used up? Just as the disappearance of of lump of clay that is used-up to create a urn or pot?

    This is taken up in the Spandakarikas¹ and brings out the beautiful knowledge that the subject or pramātā ( from pramā - to form , create , make ready , arrange) + the object or prameya (an object of certain knowledge , the thing to be proved or the topic to be discussed ) and the means of knowing (pramana or means of acquiring) exists in and of śiva. That is to say, there is nothing for śiva to be used up for.

    As we have mentioned the clay becomes the pot , yet its essence has not changed, it is still the clay, just as gold remains gold in a ring or a golden chalice.

    Many say that the world rests in śiva. While this is a reasonable view for a passing conversation, it is not as if the world is contained in Him like an apple residing in a brown bag, where the apple has its own independent existence. So when one says the world ( the material universe both subtle and gross) comes out from him the world and śiva are not separate. Śiva without effort remains both the transcendent and the material creation - both viśvottīrna and viśvamaya.

    He is not concealed as the world owes its existence to Him. He is not limited by space or time ( concealment , constraint or boundary). Yet it takes one with enlightened vision to see this or unmilana samādhi; unmīlana or the act of opening the eyes. That act of remaining in that even-ness , samādhi, (union , a whole , aggregate) while the eyes are open, the world is viewed as Universal Consciousness, śiva.

    This IMHO Is worthy of ones focus and attention in this world... your thoughts and discussion on this matter is warmly welcomed.

    ॐनमःिशवाय


    pranams


    1.Spandakarika - Chapt 1, starting with karika (kArikA) 2.
    2. Posted during śiva yoga ( a dina or nitra yoga)
    Last edited by yajvan; 23 August 2009 at 10:46 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #2

    Re: The Material Cause...

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste,

    Have you pondered the notion of this Universe and its creation? That is, He (śiva) has created all that there is yet without any material means. And/or the notion the He is the material cause for all this to happen - would He not then be used up? Just as the disappearance of of lump of clay that is used-up to create a urn or pot?

    This is taken up in the Spandakarikas¹ and brings out the beautiful knowledge that the subject or pramātā ( from pramā - the to form , create , make ready , arrange) + the object or prameya (an object of certain knowledge , the thing to be proved or the topic to be discussed ) and the means of knowing (pramana or means of acquiring) exists in and of śiva. That is to say, there is nothing for śiva to be used up for.

    As we have mentioned the clay becomes the pot , yet its essence has not changed, it is still the clay, just as gold remains gold in a ring or a golden chalice.

    Many say that the world rests in śiva. While this is a reasonable view for a passing conversation, it is not as if the world is contained in Him like an apple residing in a brown bag, where the apple has its own independent existence. So when one says the world ( the material universe both subtle and gross) comes out from him the world and śiva are not separate. Śiva without effort remains both the transcendent and the material creation - both viśvottīrna and viśvamaya.

    He is not concealed as the world owes its existence to Him. He is not limited by space or time ( concealment , constraint or boundary). Yet it takes one with enlightened vision to see this or unmilana samādhi; unmīlana or the act of opening the eyes. That act of remaining in that even-ness , samādhi, (union , a whole , aggregate) while the eyes are open, the world is viewed as Universal Consciousness, śiva.



    This IMHO Is worthy of ones focus and attention in this world... your toughts and discussion on this matter is warmly welcomed.
    Namaste Yajvan,

    The q will arise as to whether clay and clay pot are one. If so, God and world will be one, meaning all the flaws of this world will be attributed to God. If not, we must treat god and world as distinct, so the q remains as to how he created the world, the material cause.

    OTOH, if we say there is both oneness and distinction, there may not be any praamana that the material cause could be one with, and distinct from, the effect. Normally, the material cause is considered one with the effect, if not, we're questioning the very substratum, the basis and the foundation of the object.

    So all three options are going to be a problem. Better to consider prakriti as wholly different from Brahman. That way, no problem could arise. And because Vedanta considers both to be anadi, the q as to which came first, or whether one created the other will not arise.

    Suresh

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    Re: The Material Cause...

    Quote Originally Posted by suresh View Post
    Namaste Yajvan,

    --Better to consider prakriti as wholly different from Brahman. That way, no problem could arise. And because Vedanta considers both to be anadi, the q as to which came first, or whether one created the other will not arise.

    Suresh
    Namaste Suresh,

    What is prakriti?

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: The Material Cause...

    Namaste,

    and (a belated) welcome to HDF, suresh, I'm looking forward to reading more of your thoughts

    And, dear atanu beat me to the punch, with his question, "What is prakriti?"



    ZN
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

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    Re: The Material Cause...

    Namaste Suresh and all,

    " The q will arise as to whether clay and clay pot are one. If so, God and world will be one, meaning all the flaws of this world will be attributed to God."

    The evil one?!!

    Flaws are politics! And there are no good policies.
    Even all the corpus of advaita must dissolve in the end. As any good intellectual knows to stay firm in your method and general propositions is always the best way.

    I would like to share this poem from David Tibet with you all!
    I hope it will be enjoyable by all.

    "
    They returned to their earth

    When serpents come
    They cover the Christ thorn
    Two heads
    And cock heads
    Serpents feet of emotion
    Lidded eyes and smudged reality
    Everything has two faces
    One is earthly without true form
    The other blackened and blackening

    And mother is in the fields
    Father is in the fields

    You know well its tortured form
    It's locked within a particular place
    It's locked within a particular form
    It's jailed by a falling light
    With angles shapes and size
    It's held by true what
    It's held in through place
    It's an aim that has no name

    And mother is in the fields
    Father is in the fields

    It's a form creating formless
    Formless creating form
    Oh four towers reaping backwards
    Do not spell the sound
    Do not move to the lies
    Speak the words and they create the universe
    And they destroy all universe

    And mother sleeps in the fields
    Father he reaps in the fields

    Heavy-lidded eyes do not mask his pain
    They shade us from the burning light
    Listen one face one form one truth
    I see it through the shading glass
    I see it fractured in the world
    This is not true
    It's appearance only

    And mother is in the fields
    Father is in the fields

    An eagle flies his bloody face
    Behind bloody claws behind bloody claws
    His pain is blackened rain
    His rain is Roman
    Sire the pain it is not finished
    I happens now
    Matchstick man in a matchstick world
    Nake the prime slice the sickle
    Nake the sickle slice the core
    Time stops when he was thirty-three

    And mother is in the fields
    Father is in the fields

    Time stops when i am thirty
    Time stops then and time stops there
    Then is now
    Oh why do we not say it
    Time stops time breaks time folds
    Time ceases
    And pestle grindes the mortar
    The mortar turns to dust
    The metal turns to rust
    Words they fail they fall apart
    The corn it dies and is reborn

    And mother stays in the fields
    Father is in the fields

    Blond hair moves in the blond corn
    Boyd wears black he talks of death
    But all his faces spell out light's on the roof
    He's kissing a rose
    A blood drop comes from the heart of her life
    Something hangs above there in the skies
    Something hovers above his brown hair
    Life without us in the background of light
    And the birds don't sing
    When the curtain snaps
    Anita's in Ireland
    She's falling over rocks
    Stars of the sky stars of the pain
    And all stars meet in a falling star
    And some make money from weapons' blood
    And some make money from fear's blood
    And some make money from hunger's blood
    And some make money from politics' blood
    And some make money from religion's blood
    The world falls apart
    The world starts to cease

    And mother is in the fields
    And father has died in the fields"



    Om namah shivaya!
    Last edited by Nuno Matos; 09 February 2008 at 07:34 PM.

  6. #6
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    Wink Re: The Material Cause...

    Even all the corpus of advaita must dissolve in the end.
    Namaste Nuno,

    The advaita corpus of nara is imperishable!

    The advaita corpus of nara is brahma, the unbounded and unborn sadAshivaliÑga, which is sat.

    And without the sat of advaitam there is only shUnyam (as “nonentity or absolute non-existence”).

    advaitam may be described as being shUnyam (as “empty, barren, desolate, deserted, vacant, having no certain object or aim, possessing nothing, wholly destitute, wholly alone or solitary, having no friends or companions, free from sensation, insensible, bare, naked, guileless, innocent, or indifferent”), but not as “non-existent, absent, unreal, or nonsensical”.

    And nara (brahma) may be referred to as shUnyA (as “a barren woman”), or shUnyam (as “a cypher, space or heaven”), but not as shUnyam in the strict sense of “nonentity or absolute non-existence”.

    The unmarked eternal corpus of brahma is the elysian field, the shUnyarAjya (“kingless kingdom”), itself without parentage or age, and without which there is no existence (eternal or otherwise).

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    Smile Re: The Material Cause...

    Namaste Sri Sarabhanga Giri,

    " The advaita corpus of nara is imperishable!"

    Dear friend I agree with you totally in what concerns the above said. I was talking about the theoretic corpus not the metaphysical one.

    Om namah shivaya!

  8. #8

    Re: The Material Cause...

    Hello Sarabhanga,

    Excuse me, what exactly is meant by "Advaita corpus"...do you mean written texts and spoken teachings?

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    Post Re: The Material Cause...

    Namaste Bob,

    I was using corpus in the sense of body, as the infinite corpse of nara, the immaculate self of brahma ~ the aliÑgaliÑgam of sadAshiva, the shUnyarAjya, the brahmayoni, nirvANam, etc.

  10. #10
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    Re: The Material Cause...

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by suresh View Post
    Namaste Yajvan,

    The q will arise as to whether clay and clay pot are one. If so, God and world will be one, meaning all the flaws of this world will be attributed to God. If not, we must treat god and world as distinct, so the q remains as to how he created the world, the material cause.

    OTOH, if we say there is both oneness and distinction, there may not be any praamana that the material cause could be one with, and distinct from, the effect. Normally, the material cause is considered one with the effect, if not, we're questioning the very substratum, the basis and the foundation of the object.

    So all three options are going to be a problem. Better to consider prakriti as wholly different from Brahman. That way, no problem could arise. And because Vedanta considers both to be anadi, the q as to which came first, or whether one created the other will not arise.

    Suresh
    Namaste suresh,
    And thank you for your post. I am in hopes you wish to poke around at this thought:
    Better to consider prakriti as wholly different from Brahman
    What are your thoughts on this matter? How do you see prakriti and its differences to Brahman?

    pranams
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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