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Thread: The Material Cause...

  1. #21
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    Re: The Material Cause...

    Quote Originally Posted by suresh View Post
    Namaste Atanu,
    -
    Madhusudhana Saraswati in his "Advaita Siddhi" is pretty emphatic about this. He gives different 'levels' of unreality to show why objects appear to exist, even though they're essentially non-existent. So it's my view that classical advaita differs from modern advaita, in that the former believes in the unreality of the world without making compromises.
    Namaste Suresh,

    Yes. Ajativada is the highest and absolute and known only when the native knows Seer/Seen/Seeing as "Not Two". But for all other cases, pratyaksha will have components of Adhyasa -- superimpositions. Independepent of the native's seeing/knowing, the Sat-non-dual Turiya exists without cause and effect.

    Gaudapada:

    9
    Some say that the manifestation is for the purpose of God’s enjoyment, while others attribute it to His division. But it is the very nature of the effulgent Being. What desire is possible for Him who is the fulfillment of all desires?

    10
    Turiya, the changeless Ruler, is capable of destroying all miseries. All other entities being unreal, the non—dual Turiya alone is known as effulgent and all—pervading.

    11
    Visva and Taijasa are conditioned by cause and effect. Prajna is conditioned by cause alone. Neither cause nor effect exists in Turiya.

    -------------------
    17
    If the phenomenal universe were real, then certainly it would disappear. The universe of duality which is cognized is mere illusion (maya); Non—duality alone is the Supreme Reality.


    If Maya was Sat then it would vanish, since Sat is unchanging. Now, if the Maya was pure Asat, then there would not arise any false cognition and need for Guru or Guru Vani, since an Asat entity is non-existent always and cannot have any effect. So, Maya is inexplicable but not pure Asat. And the Universe, cognised as made up of discrete objects is Mithya but not Asat. Manifestation is the very nature of Self -Turiya, wherein however there is no cause and no effect.

    The causes and effects are in Visva and Taijjsa. The cause alone is there in Prajna.

    To comprehend this (say approximately), I have always reminded myself of water. Water's very nature is to exist or be known in three forms -- liquid, vapour, and solid, but in reality the thing-in-itself that water is, is unknown. We can only say that which is water exists and is known in three different forms. Similarly, that which is Self knows itself in three states differently.

    24
    AUM should be known quarter by quarter. There is no doubt that the quarters are the same as the letters. Having understood AUM quarter by quarter, one should not think of anything else.

    Regards.

    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 14 February 2008 at 03:24 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  2. #22
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    The Prakriti

    Gaudapada on intrinsic Prakriti
    IV-9. By the term nature is to be known that which comes into being through right attainments, which is intrinsic, inborn, and non-produced, and which does not give up its character.

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. #23
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    Re: The Material Cause...

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by suresh View Post
    Namaste Yajvan,

    The Sankhya system of classification is common to most schools, including dvaita, advaita etc. So I wasn't referring to the Sankhya philosophy, only to this particular classification that's accepted by most schools of thought within Hinduism. Besides, Sankhya accepts the world's reality, which I haven't done. Neither does classical advaita.

    All I wanted to convey was that classical advaita holds prakriti to be false. It doesn't say prakriti and Brahman are one, as do most neo-vedantins. I am not accusing anyone, so please don't misunderstand me. Just putting forth my view that nowhere does the classical advaitin say that Brahman has become the world.

    Let's consider this example. If clay becomes clay pot, one can say that clay is the material cause. But if clay is reflected in the mirror, do we refer to the clay as the material cause of its reflected image? Advaita or mayavada subscribes to the latter, whereas Brahmavada (Vallabha's school of Vaishnavism) believes in the former.

    From the above, we can only conclude that the world isn't made out of Brahman, rather it's projected from Brahman. So Brahman isn't the material cause. Nor is the world real, because its so-called existence is similar to that of the snake superimposed on the rope. The snake is asat at all times, even though it's perceived. Likewise, even if the world is perceived, it's asat at all times.

    So there's no question of suggesting a state which is neither sat nor asat, when there's no evidence for this. Either a thing is sat or asat, and according to advaita, world is asat and Brahman alone is sat. And it's my belief that neo-Vedantins have changed the meaning of the word 'mithya' to mean 'neither sat nor asat', when in reality, it's just another word for asat. Hope to read your PoV on this.
    Namaste Suresh,
    a well reasoned post... as atanu has pointed out several observations on Brahman, I will not go into depth.
    As an FYI only Kasmir Saivism recognizes 36 elements, vs. the Sankhya system of 24 + 1... The 1 here is Purusha. So, as a side note and not to get other people all spun-up over this, its not a matter of the number of elements we are discussing, but the relevance of this material existence ( bhu loka) being false or not.
    Another member , I think it was Singhi pointed to the notion of false equals transitory, changing, with multi-various permutations. I like this notion.

    What would be key for me, is the clay + the pot + the mirror is all Brahman. And that nature of Brahman is consciousness. We can say that the pot that is created from the clay is transitory ( false) because today it's a pot, over time it withers, and goes to clay, and then another uses the clay to become the ingredient in a brick to build a home. Yet it does not loose its essential nature. Just as water becomes steam, or ice, it remains water. Like that Brahman when manifest has multi-various permutations, yet it remains Brahman.

    Atanu has pointed out several slokas that suggest this. Yet the notion of false is still the key, yes? If the reflection in the mirror is the false part, what then is it reflecting? This is the pickle we can deal with here, if we wish to continue the conversation.

    As heat is to fire, whiteness is to a conch shell, firmness is to a mountain, liquidity to water, sweetness to sugarcane, butter to milk, coolness to ice... the universe is to consciousness. On Creation III.14, Vasișțha's Yoga



    Thank you again for a good conversation on this matter. I hope to hear more.

    pranams
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #24

    Re: The Material Cause...

    Gentlemen,

    In your opinion, or teaching, what allows the native or sadhu to see the world correctly? What brings 20-20 vision on this matter? Yajvan

    What do you mean by “the world”, and what do you mean by “false” and “true”, and what do you mean by “correct understanding” and “incorrect understanding” ??? Sarabhanga

    My pov is that the saying below alludes to answers to your questions listed above. But that is my opinion only and of my interpretation only, thus I also see the saying below as standing on its own for others to interpret as they will or seek further information and or clairfication from the Hindu Lineage related to same.

    "God is in everyone. See Him there. God is overwhelmingly present everywhere. Regard everything as a manifestation of God, and you will realize the Truth". by Siva Yogaswami

    Good day

  5. #25
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    Re: The Material Cause...

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob G View Post
    Gentlemen,

    "God is in everyone. See Him there. God is overwhelmingly present everywhere. Regard everything as a manifestation of God, and you will realize the Truth". by Siva Yogaswami

    Good day

    Namaste BobG,
    Thank you for the post...
    To the saint with enlightened vision, s/he sees all 'this' as the extention of Him, as He is everywhere.

    The thief only sees the pockets of the saint; the saint only sees the divine of the sinner.

    pranam
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #26
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    Question Re: The Material Cause...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob G View Post
    Gentlemen,

    In your opinion, or teaching, what allows the native or sadhu to see the world correctly? What brings 20-20 vision on this matter? Yajvan

    What do you mean by “the world”, and what do you mean by “false” and “true”, and what do you mean by “correct understanding” and “incorrect understanding” ??? Sarabhanga

    My pov is that the saying below alludes to answers to your questions listed above. But that is my opinion only and of my interpretation only, thus I also see the saying below as standing on its own for others to interpret as they will or seek further information and or clairfication from the Hindu Lineage related to same.

    "God is in everyone. See Him there. God is overwhelmingly present everywhere. Regard everything as a manifestation of God, and you will realize the Truth". by Siva Yogaswami

    Good day
    “The world, if understood incorrectly is false, the world, if understood correctly is true.”

    explained only by,

    “God is in everyone. See Him there. God is overwhelmingly present everywhere. Regard everything as a manifestation of God, and you will realize the Truth.”

    So I assume that “the world” is “everywhere and everything”, and that “truth” is “the realization of god”, and that “falsehood” is “ignorance of god”, and that “correct understanding” is “seeing god in manifestation”, and that “incorrect understanding” is “not seeing god in manifestation”.

    And thus,

    “Everywhere and everything, if not regarded as the manifestation of god, is ignorance of god; and everywhere and everything, if regarded as the manifestation of god, is the realization of god.”

    Which seems to suggest that jAtivAda is the ultimate truth, and that ajAtivAda can only be ignorance of god and falsehood. (?)

  7. #27
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    Post Re: The Material Cause...

    From the gauDapAda kArikA (first chapter):

    There must be some origin of all entities that exist – this is the well considered conclusion. prANa creates all, puruSa creates the rays of the mind (i.e. individual souls) separate from one another. [6]

    Other creation-theorists, on the other hand, consider creation to be the manifestation of puruSa; creation is imagined by others as having the same nature as dream and illusion. [7]

    Creation is due to just the will of the lord – so think others who are quite convinced of there being a creation; the time-theorists consider the creation of beings as from time. [8]

    Creation is for the sake of enjoyment of the lord – so say others; for the sake of sport – so say still others. This again is the very nature of god – so say others, arguing ‘what possible desire can there be in the case of the lord, whose cravings are already fulfilled?’ [9]

    The all-pervading is traditionally known as turya – capable of controlling the cessation of all miseries, powerful, immutable, non-dual among all entities, refulgent. [10]

    Those two well-known vishva and taijasa are taken to be conditioned by cause and effect; prAjña, on the other hand, is conditioned by cause alone; and those two (i.e. cause and effect) have no place in the case of turya. [11]

    Neither the self, nor others again, for that matter; neither truth nor again untruth – nothing whatsoever does prAjña comprehend. That turya however is always all-seeing. [12]

    The non-perception of duality is common to both prAjña and turya. prAjña is caught up with the causal sleep, while it does not exist in turya. [13]

    The first two (i.e. vishva and taijasa) are caught up with dream and sleep, prAjña, on the other hand, with dreamless sleep. The ones convinced (about advaita) see in turya neither sleep, nor again dream for that matter. [14]

    Dream is for one comprehending reality otherwise; sleep for one who does not know reality. When the wrong apprehension in those two becomes extinct, one attains to the turya. [15]

    When the individual soul, asleep owing to the beginning-less mAyA, is awakened, he then realizes the unborn, sleepless, dreamless non-duality. [16]

    If the projected creation really existed, it would continue to be, no doubt. But this duality is just mAyA; there is only non-duality in reality. [17]

    If some illusion is imagined by someone, it could be rejected. This statement is on account of its usefulness for instruction; when the highest is known, duality does not exist. [18]

    The syllable A leads on to vishva, and the syllable U as well to taijasa, and the syllable M again to prAjña. There is no course towards what has no portions. [23]

    One should know the oMkAra, quarter by quarter; the quarters are the portions, no doubt. Having known the oMkAra, quarter by quarter, one should meditate upon nothing else whatsoever. [24]

    One should fix the mind upon praNava; praNava is brahman void of fear; for him ever fixed upon praNava, there is no fear anywhere. [25]

    praNava is indeed the lower brahman, praNava likewise is the higher (Atman). Beginningless, undifferentiated, without outside, unique and immutable is praNava. [26]

    praNava indeed is itself the beginning, middle, and likewise the end of everything. Having indeed known praNava thus, one attains to it immediately. [27]

    One should indeed know praNava as the lord well set in the heart of all. Having thought of the all-pervading oMkAra, the wise one does not grieve. [28]
    Last edited by sarabhanga; 18 February 2008 at 06:36 AM.

  8. #28
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    Post Re: The Prakriti

    From the gauDapAda kArikA (fourth chapter):

    Some disputants indeed fancy the origination of the existent; other intelligent disputants, of the non-existent; thus they are seen disputing with one another. [3]

    No existent whatever is originated; a non-existent is assuredly not originated; those disputants indeed disputing thus proclaim non-origination. [4]

    We endorse the non-origination proclaimed by them; we dispute not with them. Know how the ajAtivAda is free from dispute. [5]

    The disputants wish to prove the origination of the entity which is verily unoriginated. How indeed can an unborn immortal entity pass on to mortality? [6]

    The immortal does not become mortal, nor likewise the mortal immortal. There would not be, under any circumstances, a change otherwise of one’s nature. [7]

    He for whom an entity immortal in its own nature goes to mortality – how will the immortal of his, artificially made, remain changeless? [8]

    That should be well known as nature which is fully established, natural, inborn and not made artificially, and which does not abandon its own nature. [9]


    prakRti is “the original or natural form or condition of anything , the cause or original source, origin, extraction, nature, character, constitution, disposition, fundamental form, pattern, standard, model, or rule”. And prakRti (as mAyA) is distinct from puruSa (as brahma).

    prakRti (“nature”) never gives up its own characteristics.

    And prakRti is defined in four ways:

    sAMsiddhikI (“fully established”) ~ “effected naturally, existing by its own nature or essence, effected by supernatural means” or “acquired, but become second nature”.

    svAbhAvikI (“natural”) ~ “belonging to or arising from one’s own nature, spontaneous, original, peculiar, or inherent”.

    sahajA (“inborn”) ~ “congenital, hereditary, original, by birth, or always the same as from the beginning”.

    akRtA (“not made artificially’) ~ “undone, not made, or uncreated”.

  9. #29

    Re: The Material Cause...

    Namaste Yajvan,

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Another member , I think it was Singhi pointed to the notion of false equals transitory, changing, with multi-various permutations. I like this notion.
    This is the neo-Vedanta line, equating temporary with false, and permanent with real. But the q will arise as to whether this change is real. If real, there will be two entities that are real, which goes against the basic tenet of advaita that Brahman alone is real. If change is considered unreal, it will contradict our contention that things are transitory. Either way, it's going to be a problem for advaita. So temporary=unreal doesn't seem to be the solution here.

    The Real cannot be determined in terms of time. If we do, one may as well conclude space is real, it's Brahman, because there's no evidence that it's ever created or destroyed or transformed in any manner. In effect, we'll be equating an element of prakriti with Brahman, if we try to ascertain the real in terms of time. And that could be disastrous. So it's better to conclude that the unreal has nothing to do with temporary or permanent existence, the unreal never exists at all.

    If the reflection in the mirror is the false part, what then is it reflecting? This is the pickle we can deal with here, if we wish to continue the conversation.
    Brahman is being reflected. I do not see a problem here, unless we assume that only the real can reflect the real. The source of dreams is 'real' in the waking state, yet we consider dreams to be unreal. Likewise, Brahman is real, even though the reflection isn't.

  10. #30
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    Re: The Material Cause...

    Quote Originally Posted by suresh View Post
    Namaste Yajvan,
    - So it's better to conclude that the unreal has nothing to do with temporary or permanent existence, the unreal never exists at all.
    Namaste Suresh,

    I am trying to follow your line of thought, which surely is making an impact. But I want to understand how this line of thought is different from Dvaita or Samkhya, which have two entitities -- purusha and prakriti. Whereas Vedanta has only Brahman (Atman).

    It is true that unreal never had any existence and never will and such a thing cannot give rise to any effect, such as barren women's son does not come into effect.

    But the universe is pratyaksha. Distinct minds are pratayksha -- this forum itself is a proof. Then how this variegated thing is explained in the light of intentless uniform-nirguna Brahman.

    Surely, uniform-nirguna Brahman requires no instruction of Gita.

    Likewise, Brahman is real, even though the reflection isn't.
    But we surely see the reflection only and not Brahman. An unreal thing never was and never will be.

    If only Nirguna Brahman was seen as it is, then there would be no teacher and no student. The fact is that Samaan Brahman is not seen as it is. Why?


    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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