Paradvaita Doctrine of Kashmiri Shaivism

[atanu]

Hallucinations. No one ever became Krishna and never will become. Even Ramana Maharishi, died horribly of throat cancer. What makes you think anybody ever was equal to Krishna. -----

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Horrible you are. Exposed in true colours. As always the discussion with a Vaishnavaite turns personal only.

Remember that Krishna is Ranchod. His Gopis were abducted and He could not do anything. Yadus were destroyed. Sati self immolated. Rama drowned himself. Christ got crucified.

A jnani and His body are not the same thing. A jnani is all pervading Vishnu only. It is ignorance that associates oneself with the body. And you are horribly ignorant.

It is the individual soul, and not the Supreme Soul that percieves the "I" in me. Your issues are replacing the word Atma with Self wherver you find it. Even Shankara says Atma refers only to paramAtma in BSB but rarely is consitant with interreting rest of the scripture.
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Find the individual soul and we will discuss further.

You have not followed up anything - Sankarshana is a form of the Lord and non different from him. Where is the third entity? Your grasp on scriptures is poor - I cited the Gopala Tapini Upansihad which is accepted among all schools, and please refer to it.

And you answered - you have none according to your interpretation? The awareness comes from the vision of Lord Sankarshna who is the controller of the Ahamkara tattva. But the perception and spiritual vision of Shusupti are not as perfect as Turiya.

Sudarshan, you have not understood a thing.

You have said: The awareness comes from the vision of Lord Sankarshna.


Whose is the vision and who is cognising Lord Sankashana? You fail to enquire the basic questions again and again due to deeply entrenched beliefs, which are useless for enquiry of God.

If you answer "The individual soul cognises", I ask in advance "With what tool?" Find out the individual soul and His tool of cognition. And you will be on your way.


Done.


Om Namah Shivayya

[atanu]

Hi Atanu and Sudharshan

Request you to clarify what are you discussing

I suppose both of you are not masters of Kashmiri Shaivism, nor do I. If one of you are confident on Kashmiri Shaivism, I thought of taking your help instead of others :1cool:

Dear Ramkish,

I am not a believer of artificial divisions created by mortal men. However, I respect your wish.

Thanks and Regards,

Om namah Shivayya

[atanu]

To escape from this charge, advaita shuts its eyes and says , all dualty is illusion. For whom? Ask yourself - it is the Brahman himself who is in bondage and Maya in advaita and hope it satisfies you.

Advaita and Advaitin does not admit duality and bondage. So, why should such a one enquire about Maya? Advaitin has already done that and found that there is only one seer who is the seen also.


It is those who harp on duality of seer and the seen have to find out where from two entitities come in ONE WITHOUT A SECOND.

Om Namah Shivayya

[atanu]

--
After ignorance is removed, the Lord is known in all details and glory - that is moksha. Bhagvan is Satyam Jnanam and Anantam and this realization constitutes moksha. Karma is responsible for us not seeing God now, and this needs no logical explanation - scripture supports karma. If you wish to go much deeper, it has to be urged that this is Lord's wish alone and more like concealment like Arjuna says. But advaita's NB cannot do that at all, and even if he did it means he indulged in self delusion.

Turiya the Self is known in identity alone (Mandukya).

The question remains: Who sees the glory and with what tools?


As long as there is another the fear persists (Brihadaraynaka). Is this state of fear (which Arjuna attained) a moksha?


NO. NO. NO.

[Arjuna]

Namaste to all,

To settle the matter with Shankara's victory over Kashmiri panditas:

If we accept Shankara's date to be 800 A.D., then he could have defeated ONLY dualistic Siddhanta-shaivas and verily not the adherents of Paradvaita.
Vasugupta lived from 800 till 850 A.D., and his only work was Shiva-sutra, revealed to him by Shiva. Bhatta Kallata (825—875 A.D.) wrote Spanda-karikas. Somananda, the first one to write a philosophical exposition of Paradvaita, lived from 875 to 925 A.D., and Utpalacharya was his direct disciple.

Thus, by the time of Shankara's visit to Kashmir Paradvaita was not yet formed as a philosophical school. He could have defeated dualistic shaivas, followers of 28 Siddhantagamas, which are nowadays spread in Tamilnadu.

There was in fact a pre-Shankara's monistic tradition of Tantrism in Kashmir, Kalikrama. But adherents of it were Siddha-yogins and no panditas (at least at those times). Also they never accepted any Vedantic authorities, but relied solely on Kramagamas and Bhairavagamas.

[Sudarshan]

Horrible you are. Exposed in true colours. As always the discussion with a Vaishnavaite turns personal only.

Remember that Krishna is Ranchod. His Gopis were abducted and He could not do anything. Yadus were destroyed. Sati self immolated. Rama drowned himself. Christ got crucified.

A jnani and His body are not the same thing. A jnani is all pervading Vishnu only. It is ignorance that associates oneself with the body. And you are horribly ignorant.

Nothing personal, think for yourself.

Dear Atanau, Rama and Krishna have pramANAs, Certainly there are jnanins and know about the glories of God- but they were not God. If so, prove it. Regarding Krishna and Rama, I dont have to elaborate much, their Avatarhod is rooted in the scripture.

You must realize that in VA, Jnanam about the Lord destroys all Karmas including prArabdha by the grace of God, and no Jnanin can ever meet with any calamity whatsoever. He is a king in all respects and quits the world the moment he wants. In advaita, you claim to become Brahman, yet the Jnanin appears to be troubled by his karma. The body consciousness is not present in Jnani even according to VA, and he has no Karma even to consider any problems in life. But everything is pervaded by God, including space, tiime and beyond - so the body is a temple of divintiy. Why would a jnanin who knows this be subject to the laws of fate? Many schools of Yoga acept with this concept - including the Siddhas.

You forgot to mention about Rama and Krishna, and quoted some irrelevant stuff about them, as if you did not know it is their Maya. Even Brahma was bewildered by Krishna, and then Krishna lifted the Govardhan with his little finger as a boy, and yet you cant understand that he could not save gopis? You are quite funny. Krishna and Rama were never born like other humans and nor they ever died - it just so appears. This is expressedly mentioned by Krishna. It is often funny an advaitin would bring out the "weaknesses" of Krishna. I wonder what he thinks Krishna is?


You periodically point out ignorance hides the truth. You have not clarified who is being ignorant here other than the Brahman.( remember no second exists according to you)

Whose is the vision and who is cognising Lord Sankashana? You fail to enquire the basic questions again and again due to deeply entrenched beliefs, which are useless for enquiry of God.

If you answer "The individual soul cognises", I ask in advance "With what tool?" Find out the individual soul and His tool of cognition. And you will be on your way.

Individual soul cognizres the Brahman with his own Atma. What is so dificult to understand? If is seeing divinity everywhere, in this space, time, within onself and beyond - understand?
I am surprised that you are finding it so hard to understand this simple concept which you are doing right now - cognizing! No external tools are needed - the paramAtma is known through the jIvAtma. jIvAtnma is not an insentient like NB, and has the power of cognition. The very nature of jIva is consciousness.(Jnatri). It is also surprising that you are able to understand the concept of seer and seen distinction dissolving but yet cant understand what you are doing right now. First know that jIva is not the mind( which is a jada) according to VA, but an eternal luminous entity.

[Sudarshan]

Advaita and Advaitin does not admit duality and bondage. So, why should such a one enquire about Maya? Advaitin has already done that and found that there is only one seer who is the seen also.


It is those who harp on duality of seer and the seen have to find out where from two entitities come in ONE WITHOUT A SECOND.

Om Namah Shivayya

You are contradcting so many things here. Without understanding Maya, how will you overcome it? Seek to understand avidya first, and overcome it. Then seek to understand Maya and overcome it. Bypassing both will lead to no mans land. If things were so simple like advaita says, we had no need of scripture and nor we would be wandering in the samAra. Obviously, I am not talking about the advaitin version of avidya and Maya here.

Advaita has neither seer nor seen - seeing or knowing is mithya accroding to advaita. If an advaitin "claims" any experience of sorts, he is already contradicting it. Expereince is mithya according to advaita, so whoever claims so has to rejected ouright.

Be rational first. You are trying to cut the tree sitting on the very branches. You are standing on the very premises of dualty, and without understanding how you came about here in the world of dualty, how can you overcome it? Absurd talk at best.

[Sudarshan]

Turiya the Self is known in identity alone (Mandukya).

The question remains: Who sees the glory and with what tools?


As long as there is another the fear persists (Brihadaraynaka). Is this state of fear (which Arjuna attained) a moksha?


NO. NO. NO.

Fear of what? Of God? When a Jiva sees Bhagavan in moskha he is overcome by fear? Whose logic is this?

The talks on identity are all absurd, first prove the existance of an entity called NB, and then show how the actionless, attributeless entity gave rise to a dualty. No inexplicability please.

You have not any questions I raised earlier except posting something irrelvant.

[Singhi Kaya]

You must realize that in VA, Jnanam about the Lord destroys all Karmas including prArabdha by the grace of God, and no Jnanin can ever meet with any calamity whatsoever. He is a king in all respects and quits the world the moment he wants. In advaita, you claim to become Brahman, yet the Jnanin appears to be troubled by his karma.

So we don't have prarabdha karma in VA??
Ofcourse if God is omni potent like in christianity this is explainable.

[Sudarshan]

So we don't have prarabdha karma in VA??
Ofcourse if God is omni potent like in christianity this is explainable.

No, knowledge of the divine roots out sancita and prArabdha Karmas ( including Agamin) and confers instantaneous liberation without the need to wait for "natural death". Of course, such a soul is free to choose whether to live or not.

Even TiruppAvai of Andal brings this out clearly:

maayanai mannu vatamathurai main^thanaith *
thUya perunIr yamunaith thuRaivanai *
aayarkulaththinil thOnRum aNiviLakkaith *
thaayaik kutal viLakkam ceytha thaamOtharanaith *
thUyOmaay van^thu naam thUmalar thUvith thozhuthu *
vaayinaal paati manaththinaal cin^thikkap *
pOya pizhaiyum pukutharuvaan ninRanavum *
thIyinil thUcaakum ceppu ElOr empaavaay.