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Thread: ātman - Stretched Out

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    ātman - Stretched Out

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste,

    I was just reading a bit on this ātman ( आत्मन्).

    We know this ātman as the individual soul , the self. It also has roots in aN - अण् to breathe, अत् to move, to वा to blow, etc. so says Monier Williams Dictionary.

    Yet svami muni Narayana Prasad suggests an extended view and that is of ātata. His definition is 'that which pervades the entire being' . I can see this.

    This ātata (आतत) is defined as extended , stretched, drawn or spread. I can then see how this ātman is stretched or drawn to pervade the entire being. Yet when we think of this some may say its stretched or drawn to fill my being, my physical dimensions.


    If we look to the Chandogya ( some write chAndogya and even Chhandogya) Upanishad 4.15.1 says the following (beautifully):
    The person seen in the eyes , that indeed is the ātman ( or SELF); It is the Immortal; It is the fearless, it is Brahman.


    So that ātman that pervades me, is not limited to just my physical boundaries, by the recognition of ātata. It is That which is extended or stretched to pervade the entire being… being = BEING of Brahman.


    Our body some call puri (purī) is considered a town, a city¹, yet also the sanctuary or temple. It is the temple because it houses the ātman, that we sometimes refer as the soul, the SELF, yet this is none other than resident Brahman. Our being and His BEING , there is no difference.



    pranams



    1. Our body, as a city, has been called the city of 9 gates ( or openings): 2 Ears, 2 eyes, 2 nostrils, 2 excretion and the mouth. The Katha Upanishad calls out 11 gates - that is add the navel and the brahmaranshra ( found at the top of the skull) and we arrive at 11 openings.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: ātman - Stretched Out

    In the Katha U. it is stated near the end of chapter 2, "Sitting down, he roams afar. Lying down, he goes everywhere." It appears as if this means the atman extends beyond the physical body.
    The Vedas declared that the son rescueth the father from a hell called Put. ~ Celestials [Sec. 231 of Adi Parva - Mahabharata]

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    Re: ātman - Stretched Out

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    Namaste,

    If we look to the Chandogya ( some write chAndogya and even Chhandogya) Upanishad 4.15.1 says the following (beautifully):
    The person seen in the eyes , that indeed is the ātman ( or SELF); It is the Immortal; It is the fearless, it is Brahman.
    So that ātman that pervades me, is not limited to just my physical boundaries, by the recognition of ātata. It is That which is extended or stretched to pervade the entire being… being = BEING of Brahman.
    Namaste yajvanji,

    This is of great import and IMO, can never be over-emphasized and over-repeated (when the motive is good).

    Upanishads further say that the Man in the right eye and the man in the Sun are same. So, the Man is that, streched out from here to there, in the waking state.

    In the dreaming state, the same man becomes light and creates chariots, cities, elephants, sweets to eat -- though those things are not there.

    Further the same infinite man (purusha), embraced by the Supreme Purusha is made to lose all distinction in deep sleep.

    All these three infinite men (Purushas) are sustained by the Turiya Purusha, called Atman that is Brahman.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  4. #4

    Question Re: ātman - Stretched Out

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste yajvanji,

    This is of great import and IMO, can never be over-emphasized and over-repeated (when the motive is good).

    Upanishads further say that the Man in the right eye and the man in the Sun are same. So, the Man is that, streched out from here to there, in the waking state.

    In the dreaming state, the same man becomes light and creates chariots, cities, elephants, sweets to eat -- though those things are not there.

    Further the same infinite man (purusha), embraced by the Supreme Purusha is made to lose all distinction in deep sleep.

    All these three infinite men (Purushas) are sustained by the Turiya Purusha, called Atman that is Brahman.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Lets know that the real meaning of upanishad is "Parang ba brahma gamayati"which give us the brahma."Avidyadisamsara karanancha Atyantam abasadayati" that mean Avidya,Kam,Karma -they r the cause of "Samsara".If we not know ourself we belive in duality.If we belive in duality then we have many desire.The cause of "kam " is come from the duality that think jiva is a object and brahma another object.That mean they not know the gyan "Ahom brahmashmi" .
    Illiteracy give us many view of greediness.This tamoshik desire then work hard to get that object.That mean worshipping karma give us only karma.
    Then how a man become selfrealised?He must practice brahma vidya.wat is it?
    "Om,Brahma dabanam prathama sambhubaI
    Vishaysha karta vubanashya goptaII
    Sa brahma vidyam Sarvavidyam-pratishtham
    Arthabya jayshthaputriya prahaII1II"-Mundaka Upanishad

    Brahma is defined by two mastro as follows.
    "Sa purbeshamopi gurukalenanbachadyat"-patanjali(1/26) brahma is the universal teacher.
    "Brahma paribredho mahan"-Sankaracarya.Brahma is ultimate.
    The meaning of word "Sambhuba" is "Avibakta samakya swatantranetyavipraya" Who come from all direction with all existance.
    He is satantra that mean self without bind."Vishaysha karta vubanashya goptaII"-he creat and preserv the universe.He is the brahmavidy ,all knowledge come and unified with this ultimate knowledge.That proves its the mother of all knowledge.Brahma give this massage to his elder son.Who is his elder son?none but the self of full knowledge.In that point u may say do u belive ultimate has son? no I dont belive so I said its answer.
    In this point upanishad also said "Atmabat Sarvabhutasu" that mean treat all as u trat urself.
    From this point I want to recite to u another hymns of Isha upanishad.
    "yastu sarvani bhutni tmanyevnupasyati,
    sarvabhutesu ctmnam tato na vijugupsate.
    "
    But he who sees everywhere the Self in all existences and all
    existences in the Self, shrinks not thereafter from aught.
    "yasmin sarvni bhutni tmaivbhud vijnatah,
    tatra ko mohah kah soka ekatvamanupasyatah
    ."
    He in whom it is the Self-Being that has become all existences that
    are Becomings,1 for he has the perfect knowledge, how shall he be
    deluded, whence shall he have grief who sees everywhere oneness?
    The degrees of the Lord's self-manifestation in the universe of
    motion and in the becomings of the one Being are set forth and the
    inner law of all existences declared to be by His conception and
    determination.
    Vidya and Avidya, Becoming and Non-becoming are reconciled
    by their mutual utility to the progressive self-realisation which proceeds
    from the state of mortality to the state of Immortality.
    If a man knows Atman here, he then attains the true goal of life. If he does not know It here,
    a great destruction awaits him. Having realised the Self in every being, the wise relinquish
    the world and become immortal.-kena Upanishad
    All this, verily, is Brahman. The Self is Brahman. This Self has four quarters.
    The first quarter is vaiśvānara. Its field is the waking state. Its consciousness is outward-turned. It is seven-limbed and nineteen-mouthed. It enjoys gross objects.
    The second quarter is taijasa. Its field is the dream state. Its consciousness is inwardturned. It is seven-limbed and nineteen-mouthed. It enjoys subtle objects.
    The third quarter is prāja, where one asleep neither desires anything nor beholds any dream: that is deep sleep. In this field of dreamless sleep, one becomes undivided, an undifferentiated mass of consciousness, consisting of bliss and feeding on bliss. His
    mouth is consciousness.
    This is the Lord of All; the Omniscient; the Indwelling Controller; the Source of All.
    This is the beginning and end of all beings.
    That is known as the fourth quarter: neither inward-turned nor outward-turned consciousness, nor the two together; not an indifferentiated mass of consciousness; neither knowing, nor unknowing; invisible, ineffable, intangible, devoid of characteristics, inconceivable, indefinable, its sole essence being the consciousness of its own Self; the coming to rest of all relative existence; utterly quiet; peaceful; blissful: without a second: this is the Ātman, the Self; this is to be realised.
    This identical Ātman, or Self, in the realm of sound is the syllable OM, the above described four quarters of the Self being identical with the components of the syllable, and the components of the syllable being identical with the four quarters of the Self. The components of the Syllable are A, U, M.

    Vaiśvānara, whose field is the waking state, is the first sound, A, because this encompasses all, and because it is the first. He who knows thus, encompasses all desirable objects; he becomes the first.
    Taijasa, whose field is the dream state, is the second sound, U, because this is an excellence, and contains the qualities of the other two. He who knows thus, exalts the
    flow of knowledge and becomes equalised; in his family there will be born no one ignorant of Brahman.
    Prāja, whose field is deep sleep, is the third sound, M, because this is the measure, and that into which all enters. He who knows thus, measures all and becomes all.
    The fourth is soundless: unutterable, a quieting down of all relative manifestations, blissful, peaceful, non-dual. Thus, OM is the Ātman, verily. He who knows thus, merges his self in the Self; - yea, he who knows thus.
    Om śantih; śantih; śantih
    Om Peace! Peace! Peace!
    Om purnam adah, purnam idam, purnat purnam udacyate; purnasya purnam adaya puram evavasisyate
    Om Santih! Santih! Santih
    That is Full; this is full. From the Full does the Full proceed. After the coming of the Full from the full, the Full alone remains
    Om. Peace! Peace! Peace!

  5. #5

    Re: ātman - Stretched Out

    Namaste yajvan and others.

    Is brahman in the universe or the universe in brahman?

    yajvan (or someone else) could you explain the following verses from varāha Upanishad? The meaning of "cit-mātra" & "cit-maya"?

    cid-ihāstīti cin-mātram-idaṃ cin-mayam-eva ca |
    cit-tvaṃ cid-aham ete ca lokāś-cid iti bhāvaya || 2.47 ||
    2.47 Whatever is cit (consciousness) in the universe is only cit-mātra. This universe is cit-maya only. You are cit. I am cit; contemplate upon the worlds also as cit.

    It relates to your post, but I'd like an explanation of how the words are used if possible. As I figured out so far:

    "cit-maya" would mean: "made of, consisting of cit"
    "cit-mātra" would mean: "element of cit" or "measure, quantity, sum, size, duration of cit"

    ah... lets see what happens...
    There is a Guru in each of us. It is the Atma principle. It is the Eternal Witness functioning as Conscience in everyone. With this Conscience as guide, let all actions be done. (sss20-15)

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    Post Re: ātman - Stretched Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekanta View Post
    Namaste yajvan and others.

    Is brahman in the universe or the universe in brahman?

    yajvan (or someone else) could you explain the following verses from varāha Upanishad? The meaning of "cit-mātra" & "cit-maya"?

    cid-ihāstīti cin-mātram-idaṃ cin-mayam-eva ca |
    cit-tvaṃ cid-aham ete ca lokāś-cid iti bhāvaya || 2.47 ||
    2.47 Whatever is cit (consciousness) in the universe is only cit-mātra. This universe is cit-maya only. You are cit. I am cit; contemplate upon the worlds also as cit.

    It relates to your post, but I'd like an explanation of how the words are used if possible. As I figured out so far:

    "cit-maya" would mean: "made of, consisting of cit"
    "cit-mātra" would mean: "element of cit" or "measure, quantity, sum, size, duration of cit"

    ah... lets see what happens...
    Namaste Ekanta

    Dictionaries can be misleading.

    Actually mAtrA means measure and mAtra means 'Sheer' or 'Only'. The meaning here, as per me, is 'Only' or 'Sheer'. For example, using both mAtra and maya, we have a word: hetumAtramaya
    (Noun) which means serving (or full of - maya) only (mAtra) as a pretext (hetu).

    maya means in this context 'full of' and mAtra means 'only'. Hope it helps.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: ātman - Stretched Out

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast ekanta,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekanta View Post
    Namaste yajvan and others. Is brahman in the universe or the universe in brahman?
    In kaśmir śaivism it is said that all this is contained within śiva. No part of Him is used up in the least.

    When talking of brahman it is most associated with śiva in kaśmir śaivism and at times called the 3rd brahman or tṛtīyam brahma. But what does this mean?
    Many times we think of brahman as oṃ tat sat. In this triad the 3rd is sat or st defined as Being, Existence itself. Above all else this rings true of the nature of Being, of this All.

    This sat is significant. From this sat we get sa, and from sa we get sauḥ , one of the most important bīja sounds . It is considered the heart of śiva, and we can see form were it comes.

    I mention this just as a perspective not to change the course of the overall conversation.

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #8

    Re: ātman - Stretched Out

    Oki Atanu I can agree on cit-mātra when checking it closer.

    But cit-maya... I wonder...
    If it here means "Full of" it means "something is full of cit", what? OR if its full of cit (100&#37, then there is nothing else.
    If it means "made of cit" then the universe is made of cit...

    I cant help viewing every phenomena as cit... maya, shakti, universe etc.

    WHICH brings me to my point. Brahman is described as sat-cit-ānanda (eternal characteristics) & nāma rūpa (changing).

    On one hand the universe is said to be name & form. On the other the upanishad tells us the universe is cit.
    Now... Can it be said that universe/ phenomena/ name & form is a play of cit? A changing play, but still made of cit which is an eternal characteristic of brahman?

    ??? (hope Im not kidnapping your thread yajvan)
    There is a Guru in each of us. It is the Atma principle. It is the Eternal Witness functioning as Conscience in everyone. With this Conscience as guide, let all actions be done. (sss20-15)

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    Re: ātman - Stretched Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekanta View Post
    Oki Atanu I can agree on cit-mātra when checking it closer.

    But cit-maya... I wonder...
    If it here means "Full of" it means "something is full of cit", what? OR if its full of cit (100&#37, then there is nothing else.
    If it means "made of cit" then the universe is made of cit...
    Namaste Ekanta

    Both 'full of' and 'made of' are nearly ok by me. The form of Universe is full of cit. This can be appreciated if we compare with Aitereya U., where the word praGYaanaM is used.

    ........ sarva.n tatpraGYaanetraM praGYaane pratishhThitaM praGYaanetro lokaH praGYaa pratishhThaa praGYaanaM brahma

    All these have Consciousness as the giver of their reality; all these are impelled by Consciousness; the universe has Consciousness as its eye and Consciousness is its end. Consciousness is Brahman.

    (praGYaanaM brahma is a mahavakya).

    I am sure that this discussion should be able to complement Shri Yajvan's meanings for this full thread, rather than derail it.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: ātman - Stretched Out

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast ekanta

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekanta View Post
    On one hand the universe is said to be name & form. On the other the upanishad tells us the universe is cit.
    Now... Can it be said that universe/ phenomena/ name & form is a play of cit? A changing play, but still made of cit which is an eternal characteristic of brahman?
    This is a reasonable assessment. Note that this condition you mention does not have to be one or the other. That is why this māyā is so important in the śloka.
    This māyā is rooted in mā - measured. It is as if the Infinite is measured out into the finite. To us it looks as though this is true, yet it is not. The infinite never loses its dignity even in the constraints of the finite.

    This is way the word comes to be known as illusion, deception , fraud , trick. Just as I look at an iceberg, it seems to be a small hill that sticks up above the water, yet with knowledge we know it is a huge mountain that goes very deep. That is the illusion. Like that - this Infinite Being cannot be constrained. It is us that is not seeing clearly.

    It is by the application of the ointment of knowledge applied to our eyes ( says the upaniṣads) that gives us clarity.

    Good questions - keep them coming.
    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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