Is a Guru necessary?

[ScottMalaysia]

To develop spiritually, is it necessary to have a sat guru, one who will guide his disciples on the spiritual path to moksha? My girlfriend, who was brought up a Hindu but doesn't know a lot about the teachings, says no. She thinks that God is the only guru you need, but gurus are ok also. as He knows everything. She also thinks that scriptures are unnecessary for people that cannot read or understand, as there are other ways to understand. God will tell you what you need to know, and your parents will most likely tell you what is right and wrong. She says that you can just pray to God, and don't need gurus or scriptures or pujas.

I used two analogies to explain this. One was of her college, and I said that while it might be possible to pass the exams by just reading the textbook, it is far better to have a tutor who can help explain it, especially the difficult parts. Since many gurus have already achieved moksha, I also used the analogy of a person wanting to go to Thailand (it can be reached by land from Malaysia, where we are). I said that if you wanted to go there, the best way would be to ask someone who had already been there how to reach it.

I have heard that Lord Murugan was the first guru, but how come the first guru was God, and the first disciple got the knowledge directly from God? And who was Lord Murugan's first disciple?

[Yaruki]

There are many different paths that can be taken in Sanatana Dharma, one of which would be having a Guru.

I believe the Tamil people were the first disciples of Lord Murugan.

[Agnideva]

Namaste Scott,

To develop spiritually, is it necessary to have a sat guru, one who will guide his disciples on the spiritual path to moksha?

You may want to check out these threads:

How does one find a guru
Why is having a guru so important
Finding the Guru

how come the first guru was God, and the first disciple got the knowledge directly from God?

Since Sanatana Dharma cannot be traced back to the teachings of any single person or founder, all the teachings are considered to have descended from God. So, God Himself is the Primal Guru, the Guru of all gurus. Who was the first human disciple? This depends. Every sect will have a different disciplinic succession. Shaivite traditions, for example, often say that the first human disciple in the kaliyuga was Sage Durvasa.

I have heard that Lord Murugan was the first guru [...] who was Lord Murugan's first disciple?

As for Lord Murugan, He is humanity’s eternal Guru constantly guiding those who are on the spiritual path. In different texts Murugan appears either as Guru or shishya (disciple). In the Chandogya Upanishad, Skanda (Murugan) is identified with Sanatkumara and appears as the Guru of Sage Narada. In the Akshamalika Upanishad, Skanda is the teacher of Brahma. In the Sarvajnanottara Agama, Skanda is the disciple and Shiva is Guru. In the Kashmiri tradition, Skanda is said to have revealed the otherwise secret Malinivijayottara Tantra to mankind. In Tamil tradition, Murugan is called Thagappan Swami (His Father’s Swami) because He taught the meaning of Omkara (Aum) to His Father, Shiva.

Some say Skanda (as Sanatkumara) is one of the four Kumaras, mind-born Sons of Brahma (Sanaka, Sadananda, Sanatana & Sanatkumara), mentioned in the Puranas. In Shaivism, they appear at the feet of Shiva-Dakshinamurti. In Vaishnavism, they are said to be founders of the Nimbarka Sampradaya, and involved in the transmission of the Bhagavatam. The four Kumaras are also considered spiritual guides for Sannyasins.

So, you see Lord Murugan acts as a spiritual Guru to mankind in different manners and capacities at different times.

Aum Sharavana Bhava.

[Jigar]

Looking for a guru can be quite distressfull. Wanting one that can be dependable for his art of sorcery any day of the week is desirable. Some are very corrupt. Many do Lie, pull you along a string and cut you off after taking your earnings. Monday can be one story but pulled thru 4 days, by friday you will have put together a misnomer trying to identify what the wise guru is actually saying.

[orlando]

To develop spiritually, is it necessary to have a sat guru, one who will guide his disciples on the spiritual path to moksha? My girlfriend, who was brought up a Hindu but doesn't know a lot about the teachings, says no. She thinks that God is the only guru you need,

"If you have not yet found a spiritual master but are sincere, Krsna will direct you to a bona fide spiritual master. And if you get a bona fide spiritual master, he will take you to Krsna. Krsna is always sitting in your heart as the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within. It is that caitya-guru who manifests Himself externally as the spiritual master. Therefore the spiritual master is the direct representative of Krsna."

Laws of Nature, Chapter 1

[...]

"Krsna appears in two ways. He appears as antaryami, the Supersoul within himself, within oneself, and He appears as the spiritual master, externally. Caitya-guru and diksa-guru. Caitya-guru... As caitya-guru, as the supreme spiritual master, He is in everyone's heart. And His representative... In order to help externally the sincere person, He sends the spiritual master. Therefore the spiritual master from outside and the caitya-guru from inside, they are helping. The Supreme Personality is helping a devotee, a real, serious devotee two ways: from within, from without. The Caitanya-caritamrta therefore says that krsnera prakasa, manifestation of Krsna, a spiritual master. And Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasya aprasadad na gatih kuto 'pi: "If I can satisy my spiritual master, then I understand that Krsna is satisfied. And if I cannot satisfy my spiritual master, then I have no other way to approach Krsna." These songs we sing every day. So my Guru Maharaja used to say that "Instead of seeing Krsna, you serve so faithfully that Krsna will see you." That should be the process. Krsna is omnipresent. He can see you, He can understand you, what are doing. So we have to execute devotional service in such a faithful way that Krsna will see us. Then you will be successful. "Don't try to see Krsna. Try to become seen by Krsna." That was my Guru Maharaja's instruction."

Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam, 02-10-71, Gorakhpur

Source: http://www.harekrsna.com/philosophy/gss/guru/caitya.htm

Gaudiya-vaishnavism teaches that you cant' realize God without a guru.

She says that you can just pray to God, and don't need gurus or scriptures or pujas.

Please trust me if I say that "do-it-your-self" is not a valid spiritual path.
The Vedic Scriptures show the path to be followed.

[ScottMalaysia]

As caitya-guru, as the supreme spiritual master, He is in everyone's heart. And His representative... In order to help externally the sincere person, He sends the spiritual master. Therefore the spiritual master from outside and the caitya-guru from inside, they are helping. The Supreme Personality is helping a devotee, a real, serious devotee two ways: from within, from without.

Please trust me if I say that "do-it-your-self" is not a valid spiritual path.
The Vedic Scriptures show the path to be followed.

But if you are "doing-it-yourself" then how do you know that God as the chaitya-guru isn't guiding your steps?

Also, by "Vedic Scriptures", do you mean "the Vedas and the Upanishads" or "the Bhagavad-Gita and Bhagavata Purana"? I've found that when ISKCON devotees use the term "Vedic Scriptures" or "Vedic literature" they are referring to the Bhagavad-Gita and Bhagavata Purana, specifically the one version translated by Srila Prabhupada.

[kallol]

There are very few geniuses who can rediscover the knowledge all by themselves. Even so, they generally uncover the TRUTH partially as the subject may be too vast.

For the general people : Even for the normal study we need schools, colleges and teachers. The study is based on physical, provable matters.

The spirituality is totally abstract and mostly depends on the state & capability of mind. It is obvious that this subject needs a Guru definitely.

Now the gurus needs not be of equal capabilities like teachers fro class KG to college level.

We move from guru to guru as we cross the different milestones. The gaps between the milestones are our assimilation time and time to cover that state of mind.

Love and best wishes

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Scott et al:

There are millions of practising Hindus without Gurus. There are also many who claim to have a Guru, yet the said Guru doesn't even know them. From my POV, it should be a relationship, not a picture on a wall. Nothing wrong with a picture on a wall, but this isn't a Guru relationship as per traditional teaching.

The Guru is only necessary at a certain stage of evolution on the path to realisation. This means to me that once meditation or bhakti gets to a certain point where little else can be achieved, then the grace of a Guru can bolster the progress.

So the general opening question didn't address 'when?' at all. For the last stages only, I would say you need a Guru, yes. You might encounter the teachings of a Guru, or even the Guru beforehand, but when it comes to talking personally about rising kundalini and why you see this or that and inner siddhis etc., that's when you really need one.

Aum Namasivaya

[orlando]

But if you are "doing-it-yourself" then how do you know that God as the chaitya-guru isn't guiding your steps?

Krishna Consciousness is based on three things:
Sadhi=saints
Sastra=Scriptures
Guru=spiritual master

In order to know what is right and what is wrong,you must base on statements that are teached by all three things.
For example all the three things(vaishnava saints,Vedic Scriptures and vaishnava guru) teach that meat-eating is wrong.

Then God him-self wants that we follow a true living guru.

Also, by "Vedic Scriptures", do you mean "the Vedas and the Upanishads" or "the Bhagavad-Gita and Bhagavata Purana"? I've found that when ISKCON devotees use the term "Vedic Scriptures" or "Vedic literature" they are referring to the Bhagavad-Gita and Bhagavata Purana, specifically the one version translated by Srila Prabhupada.

I use the words "Vedic Scriptures" in the ISKCON meaning.
Whem I say "Veda" I don't mean only the four samhita(Rig-Veda,Sama-Veda,Yajur-Veda and Atharva-Veda).I mean even Smriti(Maha-bharata,Ramayana and the Puranas).