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Thread: Vedic Shaivism

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    Arrow Vedic Shaivism

    “Be gracious unto us, o Rudra, bring us bliss!” (Rigveda, I.114.2).

    Out of 6 main Shaiva-sampradayas five are Agamic and one is Vedic. This one is Pashupata-shaivism (see G.V.Tagare, “Saivism: Some Glimpses”, Delhi, 1996, p. 3). Pashupatism is the earliest Hindu cult that survived till present time.

    Worship of Shiva (as Bhava, Rudra or Pashupati) was prominent already in Vedic times.
    Rigveda (I.43.5) calls Rudra “luminous like the Sun, gratifying like gold, best among the Gods”. The famous Mrityunjaya-mantra of Shiva occurs both in Rigveda (VII.59.12) and Yajurveda. The great mantra of Shiva, Panchakshari, appears in already in Yajurveda, in a Rudradhyaya section of Taittiriya-samhita (IV.5.7) and Satarudriya of Vajasaneyi-samhita (Ch. 16,18). Five mantras of Shiva, corresponding to five letters of Panchakshari, are found in Taittiriya-aranyaka (17.1-5); Sayanacharya, a famous Rigveda commentator, regards that the first words of these mantras are the names of the five Shiva’s faces. Parts of these five mantras were taken by Lakulisha (100 B.C.E.), a Pashupata-shaiva teacher and reformer, into his Pashupata-sutra (1.40-44). Rudra is identified with Indra and Agni, main deities of Rigveda: Maitrayani-samhita of Samaveda (II.1.10) and Shatapatha-brahmana of Yajurveda (VI.1.3.10) say “agnirvai rudraH”, while Rigveda (II.33.3) and Atharvanaveda (IV.28.3; II.2.7; X.1.23) describe Him as a thousand-eyed God, a holder of vajra and a killer or Vritra, i.e. Indra. Vedas identify Rudra with Rigvedic (X.90) primal Purusha: Taittiriya-aranyaka (X.14) calls Purusha as Bhutanamadhipati, i.e. Rudra; Yajurveda (Taittiriya-samhita, IV.5.1) describes Him in a same manner as a Virat-Purusha, and same is repeated in Shvetashvatara-upanishad (which belongs to Taittiriya-brahmana). Sayanacharya while commenting upon the verse IV.28.1 of Atharvanaveda, tells us that the Lord is called Bhava for having everything coming out of His body, and that He is called Sharva, because of His destructive character at the time of dissolution. Shatapatha-brahmana (VI.1.3.17) says that Ishana, the highest form of Rudra, is same as Aditya. Shvetashvatara-upanishad clearly describes Rudra as the Supreme God, Maheshvara (IV.10), Purusha of Rigveda and Vishvakarman who is seated in the hearts of all human beings (IV.17). Thus, Rigvedic Vishvakarma-daivata hymn (X.81) also describes Rudra and no other god. Rudra is identical to Soma, who was worshipped in a pillar, very similarly to Shivalinga worship.
    Mandukya-upanishad (verse 7) names the fourth, the highest pada of Brahman, as Shiva.
    Mahabharata mentions Krishna’s initiation into Pashupatism (Anushasana-parvan, 14.379-380). In the same chapter Yajnavalkya and Vedavyasa are said to have been Pashupata-shaivas. Gautama and Kanada, founders of Nyaya and Vaisheshika schools respectively, were Pashupatas (see Prof. R.K. Siddhantashastri, “Saivism Through the Ages”, Delhi, 1975, p. 99).

    To conclude with, Shaivism is essentially Vedic religion (as Pashupatism), which later got developed with the independent Agamic revelation. This Agamic revelation is considered to be the essence of Vedas.

    In Bhairava-Agamas Shaivism takes a Shakta form, but this Agamic Shaktism has its root in Vedas again. Shakta-Agamas view Vedic Agni (who is said to be all Gods together: Aitareya-brahmana, II.6.3) as Devi, Durga, Bhairavi or Kundalini. Durga is invoked with Vedic Rik (I.99.1) connected with Agni. In Devi-upanishad, also known as Devyatharva-shirsha (verse 9), Durga is called Agnivarna and Tapasa-jvalanti.
    Agni and Soma of Vedas (invoked in pair, for example, in Rigveda, I.93), or Agni and Indra (similarly coming in pair: Rigveda, I.21), are Shakti and Shiva of Tantras.
    Sri Bhaskararaya in Lalitasahasranama-bhashya (Name 407) quotes Shruti: “One Rudra hidden in all beings, he is with Maya, with parts and without parts. He is Devi herself, and is not separated from her. By knowing this, one attains immortality.”
    Supreme Shakti of Tantras was known in Vedic times as Aditi, mother of gods, and her manifestations were Sarasvati, Ushas (“Face of Aditi” — Rigveda, I.113.19) and alike. Rigveda (I.89.10) says: “Aditi is Heaven, Aditi is Mid-region, Aditi is Mother (Earth), Father and Son. She is all the Gods; she is the Five peoples. Aditi is all that is born and what is to be.” In Rigvedic Devi-sukta (X.125.3-4) the Goddess says: “The Queen, I am the dispenser of wealth; conscious, I am the first among the Gods… They that ignore me run to ruin.”
    Kena-upanishad (which belongs to Tandya or Jaimini-brahmana of Samaveda) shows Uma revealing the knowledge of Brahman to the gods (according to Mahavasishtha, “Uma is so called because it contains the essence of the Pranava”).
    In Muktika canon there are eight Upanishads devoted specifically to Shakti: Bahvricha, Bhavana, Devi, Saubhagyalakshmi, Savitri, Sita, Tripura, Tripuratapini.

    The worship of Shakti as the Yoni has also got Vedic roots: Aitareya-brahmana (II.6.3) says that “Agni is the womb of the Gods”; Shvetashvatara (V.5) calls Rudra as “Yoni”; and Brihadaranyaka (Kanva VI.4.2) refers to worship of women’s Yoni by Prajapati. Both Brihadaranyaka (Kanva VI.4.3; VI.2.13) and Chandogya (II.13.1-2) view sexual act as holy practice. Tantric doctrine of divine nature of women also finds support in Vedic Shruti (Brihadaranyaka, Kanva III.9.11).

    “May the Goddesses favour us with increase and great happiness!” (Rigveda, I.22.11).
    Last edited by Arjuna; 18 May 2006 at 05:47 AM.

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    It would be nice if someone can elaborate upon this theme. Maybe Sarabhanga?

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    yoni indicates “the womb”, although in the RigVeda the term is always masculine rather than feminine.

    The Yoni is the “place of birth, source, origin, spring, or fountain”; and the “place of rest, repository, receptacle, seat, abode, home, lair, nest, or stable”; and thus, “family, race, stock, or caste”.

    Agni is the receptacle of the Gods; Agni is the host of the Gods; Agni is the abode of the Gods; Agni is Rudra, and Rudra is the source. And this is doubtful evidence for Shaktism!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    yoni indicates “the womb”, although in the RigVeda the term is always masculine rather than feminine.
    The Yoni is the “place of birth, source, origin, spring, or fountain”; and the “place of rest, repository, receptacle, seat, abode, home, lair, nest, or stable”; and thus, “family, race, stock, or caste”.
    Agni is the receptacle of the Gods; Agni is the host of the Gods; Agni is the abode of the Gods; Agni is Rudra, and Rudra is the source. And this is doubtful evidence for Shaktism!
    Namaste Sarabhanga,

    Vedic religion is essentially Shaiva and thus masculine, there is no doubt in this.
    However Shaktism was present there as well (as it is present in later Shaiva traditions), though in a subtle form; and i deem it isn't improbable that Yoni as a female organ could be viewed as a form of Agni already in Vedic time — since in the time of early Upanishads it was viewed as such!

    Regarding Shaktism in Vedas U have written somewhere in this forum very nicely: about Sarasvati and Aditi

    Sri Bhaskararaya in Lalitasahasranama-bhashya (Name 407) quotes Shruti: “One Rudra hidden in all beings, he is with Maya, with parts and without parts. He is Devi herself, and is not separated from her. By knowing this, one attains immortality.”
    (This quote must be from some of Upanishads out of Muktika list; however i do not know the exact source.)

    Kapalikas (proto-Nathas), the ancient Tantric subsect of Pashupatas, “believed that the goal could be reached by meditating on the Atman supposed to reside in the seat of the female organ” (Dr. Savitri Vashist, “Tantra and Religion,” Jaipur, 2002, p. 81). Thus, the understanding of Shvetashvatara passages referring to Yoni might have been "Tantric" from the very early days.
    Last edited by Arjuna; 26 May 2006 at 11:06 AM.

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    Brihadaranyakopanishad, VI:2:

    8. The king said: Do not be offended with us, neither you nor your forefathers, because this knowledge has before now never dwelt with any Brâhmana.

    So, the following instruction is NOT what was originally taught by the vedic Brahmanas. Rather, it is the divine perspective of the non-Brahmana sages who first renounced the actual performance of the old sacrificial rituals ~ seeing the divine process of Yajna in every natural process, and thus bypassing the need for animal sacrifice. And those who know this are said to be truly liberated, unlike the poor souls who sacrifice animals and consume their flesh in an endless round of killing that leads them to an inevitable rebirth.


    9. The Fire, O Gautama, is that world (heaven); the fuel is the sun itself, the smoke his rays, the light the day, the coals the quarters, the sparks the intermediate quarters. On that altar the Devas offer the Sraddhâ libation. From that oblation rises Soma, the king.

    10. The Fire, O Gautama, is Indra; the fuel is the year itself, the smoke the clouds, the light the lightning, the coals the thunderbolt, the sparks the thunderings. On that altar the Devas offer Soma, the king. From that oblation rises rain.

    11. The Fire, O Gautama, is this world; the fuel is the earth itself, the smoke the fire, the light the night, the coals the moon, the sparks the stars. On that altar the Devas offer rain. From that oblation rises food.

    12. The Fire, O Gautama, is man; the fuel the opened mouth, the smoke the breath, the light the tongue, the coals the eye, the sparks the ear. On that altar the Devas offer food. From that oblation rises seed.

    13. The Fire, O Gautama, is woman. On that altar the Devas offer seed. From that oblation rises man. He lives so long as he lives, and then when he dies,

    14. They take him to the Fire, and then the sacrificial fire is indeed fire, the fuel fuel, the smoke smoke, the light light, the coals coals, the sparks sparks. In that very altar the Devas offer man, and from that oblation man rises, brilliant in colour.

    15. Those who thus know this (even Grihasthas), and those who in the forest worship faith and the True, go to light, from light to day, from day to the increasing half, from the increasing half to the six months when the sun goes to the north, from those six months to Devaloka, from the world of the Devas to the sun, from the sun to the place of lightning. When they have thus reached the place of lightning a spirit comes near them, and leads them to the worlds of the Brahman. In these worlds of Brahman they dwell exalted for ages. There is no returning for them.

    16. But they who conquer the worlds by means of sacrifice, charity, and austerity, go to smoke, from smoke to night, from night to the decreasing half of the moon, from the decreasing half of the moon to the six months when the sun goes to the south, from these months to the world of the fathers, from the world of the fathers to the moon. Having reached the moon, they become food, and then the Devas feed on them there, as sacrificers feed on Soma, as it increases and decreases. But when this (the result of their good works on earth) ceases, they return again to that ether, from ether to the air, from the air to rain, from rain to the earth. And when they have reached the earth, they become food, they are offered again in the fire which is man, and thence are born in the fire of woman. Thus they rise up towards the worlds, and go the same round as before.

    It is clear that the cited lines are given in the context of all natural processes being seen as divine practices. And as such, it is not recommending sexual intercourse, any more than it is recommending eating or cremation, as an especially divine practice.

    And note that in this scheme, the divine purpose of eating is to produce seed, and the divine purpose of that seed is to produce another man in the womb of a woman ~ i.e. the idea of having sex without the intention of producing a child is exactly equivalent (in spiritual terms) to masturbation.



    Brihadaranyakopanishad, VI:4:

    1. Verily, of created things here earth is the essence; of earth, water; of water, plants; of plants, flowers; of flowers, fruits; of fruits, man; of man, semen.

    2. Prajâpati bethought himself: “Come, let me provide him a firm basis!” So he created woman. When he had created her, he revered her below. He stretched out for himself that stone which projects. With that he impregnated her.

    3. Her lap is a sacrificial altar; her hairs, the sacrificial grass; her skin, the soma-press. The two lips are the fire in the middle. Verily, indeed, as great as is the world of him who sacrifices with the Vâjapeya sacrifice, so great is the world of him who practises sexual intercourse, knowing this; he turns the good deeds of women to himself. But he who practises sexual intercourse without knowing this, women turn his good deeds unto themselves.

    And here you have provided another reference suggesting that the only spiritual purpose of sexual intercourse is impregnation ~ i.e. the actual conception of a child.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    So, the following instruction is NOT what was originally taught by the vedic Brahmanas. Rather, it is the divine perspective of the non-Brahmana sages who first renounced the actual performance of the old sacrificial rituals ~ seeing the divine process of Yajna in every natural process, and thus bypassing the need for animal sacrifice. And those who know this are said to be truly liberated, unlike the poor souls who sacrifice animals and consume their flesh in an endless round of killing that leads them to an inevitable rebirth.
    Namaste Sarabhanga,

    Yes, this is a view of non-Brahmana sages. However i wouldn't admit that among Brahmanas no true knowlegde was there! In such case Vedas and Brahmanas are to be rejected due to animal sacrifices — as was done by Gautama Buddha. And such position is verily non-Hindu

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    It is clear that the cited lines are given in the context of all natural processes being seen as divine practices. And as such, it is not recommending sexual intercourse, any more than it is recommending eating or cremation, as an especially divine practice.
    Yes, but at least it accepts maithuna as sacred (though not especially), and this Vedic view became a ground for Tantric cult.
    Same story BTW is also found in Chandogya V.3-8.

    Another reference to Chandogya is II.13.1-2, which is more interesting. It also mentions progeny, but if U compare this passage with neighbouring ones (ch. 10-21) U will see that progeny is mentioned in a same way in all types of Saman — it isn't specifically related to Vamadevya-saman in maithuna.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    And note that in this scheme, the divine purpose of eating is to produce seed, and the divine purpose of that seed is to produce another man in the womb of a woman ~ i.e. the idea of having sex without the intention of producing a child is exactly equivalent (in spiritual terms) to masturbation.
    Nowhere this is told. This may be a possible view, in a [sad] case when a woman is viewed as a reproductive machine and not a partner of life.
    What about love? It is also "equilavent to masturbation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    And here you have provided another reference suggesting that the only spiritual purpose of sexual intercourse is impregnation ~ i.e. the actual conception of a child.
    Not at all.

    You should have posted the chapter in its totality
    Verses 9-10 speak clearly about maithuna for the sole purpose of enjoyment and give prescription how to avoid conception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    but at least it accepts maithuna as sacred (though not especially)
    It has been repeatedly noted that maithuna is not intrinsically sinful or wrong or unspiritual. There are circumstances and conditions under which it is considered as sinful, and other circumstances and conditions under which it is blameless, and others where it is certainly praised as meritorious and highly spiritual.

    1. The earth is the essence of all these things, water is the essence of the earth, plants of water, flowers of plants, fruits of flowers, man of fruits, seed of man.

    2. And Prajapati thought, let me make an abode for him, and he created a Shatarupa (“one hundred forms”).

    Prajapati is Brahma, and his Shatarupa (or diversified form) is Brahmani, and from their primeval marriage (anciently symbolized in the aniconic icon of the Linga-Yoni) arose the whole created universe.

    This Universe is sustained and controlled by the action of Six Mahayajnas:
    1. The sacrifice of Devaloka is the oblation of Agni into the Akala Aditya (the sun, or the year as a whole) to produce Soma (or the moon).
    2. The sacrifice of Indra is the oblation of Soma into the Kala Aditya (the Adityas, or the divided year) to produce rain.
    3. The sacrifice of Prithivi is the oblation of rain into the earth to produce Anna (or food).
    4. The sacrifice of Purusha is the oblation of food into the mouth to produce Reta (or seed).
    5. The sacrifice of Gauri is the oblation of the Virya into the Yoni to produce Nara (or man).
    6. The sacrifice of Mahakala (i.e. cremation) is the oblation of Nara into Agni to produce Narayana (or spiritual man).

    Each one of these six results is a Mahaprasada, and to cast away ANY Prasada is certainly sinful.

    What does spiritual love have to do with wasting Mahaprasada?

    And, if no Prasada (divine gift, favour, blessing, or grace ~ i.e. Shiva) results from a sacrifice, then there is absolutely no spiritual value in those actions!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    Verses 9-10 speak clearly about maithuna for the sole purpose of enjoyment and give prescription how to avoid conception.
    The following lines are an ancient prescription for Vajroli (withdrawing, reclaiming, or raising the semen) ~ once again confirming that if Maithuna is performed without the sacred intention of producing offspring, then the Virya Prasada must be returned to its original place (and preferably to an even higher station).

    The Nagas do allow that sexual practices may be performed by a Yogin without blame, but ONLY if that Yogin can properly execute “Vajroli”. And it is generally assumed that proper Vajroli is actually impossible, so the effective rule is always NO SEX ALLOWED.

    5. [If] even this much semen is spilled, whether of one asleep or of one awake, then he should touch it, or [without touching] repeat:

    What semen has of mine to earth been spilt now,
    Whatever to herb has flowed, whatever to water,
    This very semen I reclaim!
    Again to me let vigor come! [i.e. vigor is lost by losing semen]
    Again, my strength; again, my glow! [i.e. strength and illumination is lost]
    Again the altars and the fire
    Be found in their accustomed place! [i.e. the internal Yajna that is continuously and consciously performed by all true Yogins is interrupted]

    10. Now, the woman whom one may desire with the thought, “May she not conceive offspring!” … first inhale, then exhale, and say: “With power, with semen, I reclaim the semen from you!” Thus she comes to be without seed.

    12. Now, the woman whom one may desire with the thought, “May she conceive!” … first exhale, then inhale, and say: “With power, with semen, I deposit semen in you!” Thus she becomes pregnant.

    On this matter, you are completely misguided!

    Rasayana is an internal alchemical process that purifies and concentrates the seed, either to endow one’s physical offspring with special properties or to conceive a divine “child” within oneself and raise it to perfection ~ i.e. “raising Kundalini” absolutely requires the retention of semen ~ and any “tantric yogi” who does not understand this is merely a Bhogi (to be shunned as a dangerous fool by all Brahmanas)!

    Only an Avadhuta is completely beyond all rules of Dharma ~ and (as I have previously mentioned) the ONLY true Avadhuta is Shri Dattatreya!

    And, until you have completely disengaged the immortal Atman from your mortal body, it is extremely unwise to imagine that you are His equal!

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    Namaste Sarabhanga,

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    1. The earth is the essence of all these things, water is the essence of the earth, plants of water, flowers of plants, fruits of flowers, man of fruits, seed of man.
    2. And Prajapati thought, let me make an abode for him, and he created a Shatarupa (“one hundred forms”).
    Prajapati is Brahma, and his Shatarupa (or diversified form) is Brahmani, and from their primeval marriage (anciently symbolized in the aniconic icon of the Linga-Yoni) arose the whole created universe.
    This Universe is sustained and controlled by the action of Six Mahayajnas:
    1. The sacrifice of Devaloka is the oblation of Agni into the Akala Aditya (the sun, or the year as a whole) to produce Soma (or the moon).
    2. The sacrifice of Indra is the oblation of Soma into the Kala Aditya (the Adityas, or the divided year) to produce rain.
    3. The sacrifice of Prithivi is the oblation of rain into the earth to produce Anna (or food).
    4. The sacrifice of Purusha is the oblation of food into the mouth to produce Reta (or seed).
    5. The sacrifice of Gauri is the oblation of the Virya into the Yoni to produce Nara (or man).
    6. The sacrifice of Mahakala (i.e. cremation) is the oblation of Nara into Agni to produce Narayana (or spiritual man).
    Each one of these six results is a Mahaprasada, and to cast away ANY Prasada is certainly sinful.
    What does spiritual love have to do with wasting Mahaprasada?
    And, if no Prasada (divine gift, favour, blessing, or grace ~ i.e. Shiva) results from a sacrifice, then there is absolutely no spiritual value in those actions!
    Thank U for this explanation

    Mahaprasada in a case of maithuna is not only a child born, but the very growth of mutual love of couple. As i a case of other Yajnas: one eats food not only to produce semen, but to sustain body (which is needed for achieving 4 Purusharthas, ultimately Mukti). Though this may not be said in this passage of Brihadaranyaka, it is in fact said in several places of Shruti.

    "Sweet be the glances we exchange, our faces showing true concord. Enshrine me in your heart and let one spirit dwell with us."
    Vedas
    "Have your eating and drinking in common. I bind you together. Assemble for worship of the Lord, like spokes around a hub. Of one mind and one purpose I make you, following one leader. Be like the Gods, ever deathless! Never stop loving."
    Atharva Veda 3.30.6-7. VE, 857

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    The following lines are an ancient prescription for Vajroli (withdrawing, reclaiming, or raising the semen) ~ once again confirming that if Maithuna is performed without the sacred intention of producing offspring, then the Virya Prasada must be returned to its original place (and preferably to an even higher station).
    The Nagas do allow that sexual practices may be performed by a Yogin without blame, but ONLY if that Yogin can properly execute “Vajroli”. And it is generally assumed that proper Vajroli is actually impossible, so the effective rule is always NO SEX ALLOWED.
    Here the question arises what is Vajroli. I doubt physical return of semen originally is meant for two reasons:
    1. All Mudras first appeared as purely spiritual practices, and in later hatha-yoga became interpreted as physical. Khechari, Vajroli, Viparita-karani, Shambhavi etc originally were not related to body circus.
    2. Even if one makes semen return into his body (which is possible to do), semen returns to urinary bladder and not glands. Consequently, it is excreted with urine. And what is a value of such "vajroli" apart from supposed ability to prolong sexual act to many hours?

    If we compare Chinese Taoist traditions, we see that this retaining of semen was important for this reason: people practicing that type of sexual "yoga" were obsessed with remaining forever young and even immortal. It was far from any spirituality, the motif was essentially egoistic. Similar ideas were current in India as Raseshvara system.
    But, there is another trend in Alchemy, where semen and rajas are united but not for gross procreation (in which energy is verily lost!) — they are united for making an elixir-stone which is a receptacle of higher power. This trend is present in Tantric tradition, where semen when ejaculated is offered to Bhagavati (present as a woman) and the Mahaprasada is Kulamrita, elixir of sexual emissions.

    In certain Tantric practices semen is kept inside body also. Ultimately this depends upon Gurvajna and Sveccha: for Agamas allow both modes.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    On this matter, you are completely misguided!
    Rasayana is an internal alchemical process that purifies and concentrates the seed, either to endow one’s physical offspring with special properties or to conceive a divine “child” within oneself and raise it to perfection ~ i.e. “raising Kundalini” absolutely requires the retention of semen ~ and any “tantric yogi” who does not understand this is merely a Bhogi (to be shunned as a dangerous fool by all Brahmanas)!
    The problem is that U mix Raseshvara ideas with Kaula-tantrism, which is much different. The idea of retention of semen was promoted by Buddhist Tantrikas who got it from China. But even Buddhist Tantras give two options as possible — both ejaculation and retention (i have Kalachakratantraraja and Chandamaharoshana texts; and in at least one of these two i have seen such thing).
    Hindu Tantras in 90% of cases prescribe ejaculation. It is seen as a Purnahuti of Yajna, and resulting tattva is viewed as Amrita.
    Kularnava-tantra says: "By [sexual] bliss Devi is satisfied, by orgasm Bhairava is satisfied and by [sexual] discharge all gods are satisfied."
    There are numerous passages from Tantras proving that view.

    Thus, i deem in this case U do not have a complete knowledge of the subject.

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    Once again, Arjuna, you are completely ignoring the context of this thread, which is considering Vedic Shaivism. Other threads have been specially established for discussion of such matters. And I am tired of chasing fragments of scripture taken out of context and trying to explain the context, which even after explanation still remains totally misunderstood. I have no interest in pursuing this discussion with you any further.

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    Please do not misunderstand ~ I have no objection to the discussion of sexual matters in the context of Dharma, and both "Tantras" and "Tantric Monism" Forums have been specially established (at your request). But you have promoted the same discussions in so many threads that my e.mail spam checker now throws all posts from Hindu Dharma Forums straight into the Trash! Trawling the Vedas for any mention of Yoni or Maithuna is an adolescent preoccupation that does not befit anyone who claims to be a Natha! And I am sure that other members share this view. Please always remember the context of particular discussions, and the sensibilities of other Hindus (who can always read about the joys of ejaculation and the details of messy sex-magic rituals performed for gaining worldly desires in the Tantra Forum, if they are so inclined).

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