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Thread: Shiva Dwesha

  1. #11
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    Re: Shiva Dwesha

    If they are both equal why is Vishnu's paradise higher- and in various texts Shiva is quoted as saying he and Lord Brahma with other saints always yearn to go there.
    I think the analogy of the milk and yogurt was nicely used by Srila Phabupada to illustrate Shiva's position.

  2. #12

    Re: Shiva Dwesha

    Namaste Atman.

    Which texts are you referring to?

    Edit:
    Shiva is also a devotee of Krsna- he meditates on him and protects Vrindavana.
    Yes, and Vishnu/Krishna is a devotee of Shiva. Skanda Upanishad verses eight and nine say-
    8-9. (I bow) to Shiva of the form of Vishnu and Vishnu who is Shiva; Vishnu is Shiva’s heart and Shiva, Vishnu’s. Just as Vishnu is full of Shiva, so is Shiva full of Vishnu. As I see no difference, I am well all my life.

  3. #13
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    Re: Shiva Dwesha

    Quote Originally Posted by bhargavsai View Post
    Yes Shiva is a devotee of Krishna, and Even Krishna is a devotee of Shiva. Try to see Shaivic texts they will glorify Shiva as Supreme. And Vaishnavic texts glorify Krishna as supreme.

    So both are equal. That is the main point.
    Namaste,

    Shiva is advaita atma, one without a second. There is no Vedic statement that Rudra worships anyone except that He abides by the rule of time that is His creation. All worship Rudra (the Self) only, including Lord Krishna, who says so in Mahabharata. And in Atmic level Krishna and Shiva are not two different beings. There is only the Self.

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  4. #14
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    Re: Shiva Dwesha

    Quote Originally Posted by Atman View Post
    If they are both equal why is Vishnu's paradise higher- and in various texts Shiva is quoted as saying he and Lord Brahma with other saints always yearn to go there.
    I think the analogy of the milk and yogurt was nicely used by Srila Phabupada to illustrate Shiva's position.
    Atman, I cannot believe someone who has chosen his name to be so meaningful("Atman": The great supreme, the soul or purusha") can be so narrow minded. You have not understood the essence of formlessness and still linger in the world of ego.

  5. #15
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    Light Re: Shiva Dwesha

    As a follower of Hara Krsna Philosophy, I do not consider 'formlessness,' or soul to be the highest goal. Those are for Buddhist/mayavadi sects. I do agree that atman is meaningful, but in various Vaishnava/Krsna texts, the goal is Narayana/Vishnu/Krsna.
    Technically speaking, atman is pure sat-chit-ananda spiritual body in Vishnu-lok and higher. Atman is spiritual, but as all heavens up to Brahmalok are considered material, with Impersonal Brahman/Shivalok 'marginal,' atman/purusha is still caught up in matter/pradhna/antimatter, hence the (potential) reason for falldown even after trillions of years.

  6. #16
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    Re: Shiva Dwesha

    Quote Originally Posted by Atman View Post
    Technically speaking, atman is pure sat-chit-ananda spiritual body in Vishnu-lok and higher. Atman is spiritual, but as all heavens up to Brahmalok are considered material, with Impersonal Brahman/Shivalok 'marginal,' atman/purusha is still caught up in matter/pradhna/antimatter, hence the (potential) reason for falldown even after trillions of years.
    Namaste,


    Those are assumptions, unsupported by sruti scripture and opposed to the teaching of Krishna.

    Atman is nalipayate. There is no question of it getting caught in matter/pradhna/antimatter.

    13.33 Yathaa sarvagatam saukshmyaadaakaasham nopalipyate;
    Sarvatraavasthito dehe tathaatmaa nopalipyate.

    As the all-pervading ether is not tainted because of its subtlety, so the Self seated everywhere in the body, is not tainted.


    It is purusha (Purva Usha) which appears to get caught due to its desire for Usha and not Atman, which ever remains taintless.


    When you say atman is 'pure sat-chit-ananda spiritual body in Vishnu-lok and higher' you forget that a sense of loka itself is a modification of chit and not pure chit. Moreover, sat-chit-ananda cannot be a body (which necessarily must have a boundary) , since it is chit -- the intelligence itself. On the other hand, if you say sat-chit-ananda is body of some one else then that some one must be non-intelligent, since in that case it is another and different from chit.

    Fall down is precisely due to desire to cling to or to acquire a personality and enjoy sensual inputs. Atman being advaita has no second and thus cannot have any distinguishable guna personality. It is indeed called nirguna. Although all objects appear and act in its presence, Atman has no association with any subtle or gross object. It is nalipayate.


    Gita
    13.15 Sarvendriyagunaabhaasam sarvendriyavivarjitam;

    Asaktam sarvabhricchaiva nirgunam gunabhoktru cha.

    Giving light to functions of all the senses, yet without the senses; unattached, yet supporting all; devoid of qualities, yet their experiencer.




    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 12 June 2008 at 04:34 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  7. #17
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    Light Re: Shiva Dwesha

    A body that expands into spiritual bliss- it is said again by Prabupada that the soul does have dimensions- which includes eyes, nose face etc.

    Not to have a boundary, naturally true happiness can only be found in a spiritual planet, as soul happiness/impersonal brahman cannot compare- according to Prabupada's texts- and other literature.

    Which shows that sensual and sexual lust are very powerful- again it shows that even in the highest material heaven one can still fall if not on guard.

  8. #18
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    Re: Shiva Dwesha

    Quote Originally Posted by Atman View Post
    A body that expands into spiritual bliss- it is said again by Prabupada that the soul does have dimensions- which includes eyes, nose face etc.
    Obviously Prabhu is not talking of Atman, which Krishna describes as below.

    Gita
    13.15 Sarvendriyagunaabhaasam sarvendriyavivarjitam;
    Asaktam sarvabhricchaiva nirgunam gunabhoktru cha.


    Giving light to functions of all the senses, yet without the senses; unattached, yet supporting all; devoid of qualities, yet their experiencer.

    --------------

    It is really unfortunate that a Krishna bhakta does not even pay a small attention to Krishna's teachings.

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  9. #19
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    Re: Shiva Dwesha

    Aye, I think I pay more than enough attention than most people (take the hint). I think you must be referring to mayavadi philosophy/impersonalism. If atman was devoid of senses, why is there so much reference to spiritual sound, sight, smell, taste and touch within Krsna's planet.
    There must be spiritual variety in spiritual Kingdom of God, therefore atman must also have spiritual senses, to cognise spiritual objects!

  10. #20
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    Re: Shiva Dwesha

    If atman was devoid of senses, why is there so much reference to spiritual sound, sight, smell, taste and touch within Krsna's planet.
    Why is there so much light, smell, etc. in a dream, though there is no sun? The state is known as Taijjassa.

    There must be spiritual variety in spiritual Kingdom of God, therefore atman must also have spiritual senses, to cognise spiritual objects!
    Senses cognise objects through Chit and not the other way around. Who is questioning the power of atman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Atman View Post
    Aye, I think I pay more than enough attention than most people (take the hint). I think you must be referring to mayavadi philosophy/impersonalism.
    I am not referring to any vada. I am referring to the following:

    Gita
    13.15 Sarvendriyagunaabhaasam sarvendriyavivarjitam;
    Asaktam sarvabhricchaiva nirgunam gunabhoktru cha.


    Giving light to functions of all the senses, yet without the senses; unattached, yet supporting all; devoid of qualities, yet their experiencer.

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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