Gita Chapt 2, 69th śloka

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

If I may let me offer a few ideas. This night that is mentioned (niśā) can have a few meanings and implications.

• One is just nightime - at night most human beings are resting and asleep. For the muni, he/she remains awake in the SELF.
• Another is ignorance is considered niśā or night; the time without light. Since the saṁyamī is light-filled of the SELF, this is the opposite of night, and 'day' shines for him/her continuously.

Namaste,
I thought to advance the conversation a bit more. I think this wisdom is worthy of discussion and to add this dimension to it.

I take note that for 'day' we associate light or prakāśa (kāś is ~ to shine + pra is ~ forth, so to shine forth). With 'night' or niśā, we associate dark or the absence of light.

Now, just as with light and dark we can consider the following.
The muni is associated with light. muni मुनि the sage , seer , ascetic.
And with niśā we have mūḍha मूढ - stupefied , bewildered , perplexed , confused , uncertain or at a loss about ; bewildered , ;confusion of mind. The deluded one.

What is the mūḍha bewildered about? His or her true nature. In fact for some, this is not even a consideration; That is ( for some) moha¹ or this delusion is so thick, they do not know that they do now know. The notion of SELF or the light of atman is not even a consideration or an idea to ponder.

That said, I find it interesting that muni & mūḍha can be so different yet start out with the same term of 'mu'. On closer inspection we see how they diverge quite rapidly.

muni = mu+ni - the sage , seer , ascetic
mu मु - final emancipation
ni नि - down , back , in , into , within ;
Or the person that is within or resides in final emancipation - in the 'light' or prakāśa ( some write prakash).


mūḍha = mū+ḍha - the deluded one
mū मू ( long u) we have binding , tying , fixing
ḍha ध - holding , possessing ; bestowing , granting , causing
Or the person that is bound or fixed, held or possessed by the dark or niśā, ignorance.

pranams

1. moha मोह darkness or delusion of mind; bewilderment , perplexity , distraction;

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam all

I don�t think I can add anything more of value that which is not all ready covered by most here, still if I may bring my own thoughts, the way I see it, the way my mind accepts it. Which in many ways is not much different.

Nicely explained by Yajvan ji above post.

Day and night, sukal paksh and Krishna paksh, utrayan and dakshiyan all of it is related. One follows the other, knowledge of both is a samdarsi

For a sansari the day is outward seeking, chasing after bright light, material things, which in turn is jada, and therefore tamas such a state is night for a muni.

For a muni the day is inward seeking contemplating on sprit, which is satva, but the path is all clouded Such a state is night for sansari.

In the state that sansari is awake, is material consideration therefore munis night
In the state that muni is awake is sprit, but a sansari is ignorant off, therefore sleeping.

Sansari = outward looking =material thing = tamas =night
Muni = inward looking = sprit = satva = day

Jai Shree Krishna

[atanu]

Namaste Atanu

Differentis the Muni he is awake and aware also in the dream state and even in deep sleep instead of loosing consciousness he is immersed in samadhi.

Namaskar MahaHrada,

Yes, I agree and this is what I expected and wished for. Now, isn't this Muni as high as Rudra Himself, who is the only God who never slumbers? One who never slumbers is also called one without a second and for such a one what is presence of object or absence of object?

Om

[MahaHrada]

Namaskar MahaHrada,

Yes, I agree and this is what I expected and wished for. Now, isn't this Muni as high as Rudra Himself, who is the only God who never slumbers? One who never slumbers is also called one without a second and for such a one what is presence of object or absence of object?

Om

yo rudro agnau yo apso ya oShadhIShu yo rudro vishva bhuvanA avivesha tasmai rudrAya namo astu.
Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, rudra who has entered all entities of the universe, to that rudra homage.


Namaste Atanu,

Your questions require a lot of attention.

The muni who is constantly awake and aware during all the three states shurely can be said to resemble rudra.

You ask what does presence and absence of an object mean to such a one?

This question can have many answers, and i will try to give at least some, but first of all i like to reframe the question, instead of presence and absence of object let us say presence and absence of sense impressions, since than we do not need to bother about the question if a sense object exists or if this is merely a misperception. (Maya)

Of course for the muni, as well as for the average person, absence of sense impressions and perceiving the world are different states of mind.

The verses in the Gita leave no doubt that the muni is directed to restrain his senses and look inward so that no sense impression will reach his mind.

Then we are told, in the simile of the rivers that flow back into the sea , that his prana or vayu and mind return to its origin at the time his sense are introverted.

Since we havent yet fully explored that state of samadhi with regressed senses i find it difficult to switch to an explanation of what happens to the muni when his mind begins to perceive sense impressions again.

I think this will depend on how deep his introversion was, if it was a short restraining of the senses, or whether it was prolonged and deepenend into nirvikalpa samadhi.

When i correctly understand the gita here the stage of introversion described in chapter two might be a first step on the way to samadhi.

Depending on whether the muni deepens his state or not his reaction when confronted again with sense impressions will be different.

Because this question is very complicated i have to resort to past knowledge and while i am neither following advaita vedanta in this janma nor have i studied it, nonetheless i can´t help quoting from viveka chudamani, even though i lack the qualification.

Shri adi shankara bhagavatpada describes in Viveka chudamani the person that is fully realised in this way:

550. The man of realisation, bereft of the body-idea, moves amid sense-enjoyments like a man subject to transmigration, through desires engendered by the Prarabdha work. He himself, however, lives unmoved in the body, like a witness, free from mental oscillations, like the pivot of the potter’s wheel.

551. He neither directs the sense-organs to their objects nor detaches them from these, but stays like an unconcerned spectator. And he has not the least regard for the fruits of actions, his mind being thoroughly inebriated with drinking the undiluted elixir of the Bliss of the Atman.

552. He who, giving up all considerations of the fitness or otherwise of objects of meditation, lives as the Absolute Atman, is verily Shiva Himself, and he is the best among the knowers of Brahman.

The idea "I am the body" is a limited vision. When the senses ar restrained and the muni is looking inward he overcomes that restriction. He will realise he is not senses, he is not the body.
Whether he realises that he is everything as well, depends on the grace of the devata and the level of his introversion.
For the muni, if he achieves this level, which is rare, this "I" and "mine " might be replaced with the vastly expanded universal vision "I am every thing".

One ceases to identify oneself with the body when one identifies with the soul or atma which is all pervading.

This results is the idea "I am everything in the universe". only when one sees something as separeted from oneself
there will arise the feelings that bind one into a limited state, like suspicion, greed, fear, jealousy, dislike.

This leads to loss of peace and sorrow and grieving.

We are like a sparrow that is landing on a dressing table. It looks into the mirror and sees its own image. It mistakes
the reflection to be another sparrow, its rival, and attacks it. In the same way, the same Supreme Being is resident in everything in the universe. Only, the forms are different. Like water in different jars -where the containers ,our bodies, are different, but the content the water, the one conciousness , is the same.


Gita 3.70:

apuryamaam acalapratiha
samudram apa pravisanti yadvat
tadvat kama ya pravisanti sarve
sa santim apnoti na kamakami 2.70

As the waters (of different rivers) enter the ocean, which though full on all sides remains undisturbed, likewise he, in whom all desires merge themselves, attains peace; not he, who hankers after such desires.

I belive that the location where these rivers, refer also to the place of origin of the nadis in the subtle body, it is the place called kandayoni in Hatha Yoga, it is situated just below the nabhi chakra, the navel, which region is the location of the Jala (water) Tattva. In the midst of this water is located the digestive fire the bhutAgni, the consumer of food, that heats this moistness and nourishes the body.

We consider the Goraksa sataka now:

Where the kanda is strung on the susummna like a jewel on a thread that region of the navel is called Manipuraka.23
Below the navel and above the male organ is the kandayoni shaped like the egg of a bird There are the origins of the seventytwothousand nadis.24
Among these thousands of nadis seventy two have been specially noted.Again amongst these ten carriers of the Prana are designated as the most important.

Goraksa sataka 23 24 25

The ten carriers are the nine nadis originating from the nine holes of the body and the tenth, is the straight nadi, sushummna, where our life energy should assemble.

All the bhutas are arranged in the body,one on top of the other, in the navel area the jala is situated, the apas tattva.

The navel is also the place where vak devi firstappears as subtle sound in the stage of pasyanti , still inaudible with the normalsense of hearing, it appears to the yogi like an indistinct sound in meditation, a sound similar to the sound of the waves of a great ocean.
This ocean the source of mantra, is also known by the name "Hrada" or "MahaHrada" which word has two meanings it means both lake or ocean and a roaring or murmuring indistinct sound, which is vak devi, or nada in the inaudible stages of the very subtle source of sound called "para" and its first reflection "pasyanti".

In the form as para it appears in the muladhara chakra, as pasyanti the first murmuring stiring, in the navel.

This vak devi rising through the stages of sound or nada is similar to kundalini rising.

This inaudible sound, source of all mantra and source of the veda, will eventually evolve and arise out of the mouth as air (vayu) and articulated speech, but here in the deep state of meditation one can hear it as an indistinct murmuring sound.

Here in nabhi sthana we find the origin of all mantra before it is spoken, the origin of the tara, the pranava, that is OM.

So if the muni deepens his level of restrainment of the senses, retraces his pranas into the source, his consciousness may enter the nabhi sthana and eventually experiences the arising of kundalini as vak devi and the immersion of the mind in the tara, the pranava thats is AUM, the rudra, the stirring of agniH located in the Sushummna in the navel region. rudró vA eShá yád agníH

MahaHrada



The great Scholar Gopinath Kaviraj wrote:

The pure soul, which is a mode of the Absolute and, ultimately consubstantial with it, becomes enveloped in its mundane stage with a double coating of Manas and Bhutas, representing two aspects of subtle matter. The word Manas is used here in a very wide sense, including buddhi, anhankara, etc. The senses which develop later and are only the functional variations of Manas are also implied in it. The word Bhuta stands here for the objective stuff in a state of relative equilibrium. It holds within it the so-called tanmatras, viz. sabda, sparsa, rupa, rasa and gandha, which are not yet distinguishable as such. Each of the five matras has its own centre, wherein it is capable of expanding and contracting. The soul in its descending or outgoing course takes upon itself as a matter of necessity these layers of subtle matter. Though its innate purity is marred thereby it still retains enough of self-consciousness and the consequent powers. Total self-forgetfulness takes place only when it emerges into the outer world, of gross matter which is the outcome of a combination, by means of a process known as Panchikarana, of the finer radiating particles shooting out of the tanmatric centres. The descent into subtle Matter was, as it were, in a straight line, but birth into the external world is the product of an oblique motion (tiryag.hgati) in Vayu. As soon as Consciousness finds itself encased in sensible or gross matter, the Manas develops into senses which begin to operate each in its own line with reference to a corresponding aspect of this Matter. It is for this reason that senses cannot apprehend anything beyond dense Matter. The Manas, as abstracted from the senses, is indeed capable of giving rise to supersensible knowledge. The greater the abstraction the purer the quality of this knowledge. The abstraction of Manas is really synonymous with its concentration and consequent purification.

The so-called Divyachaksu, the Celestial Eye or the Third Eye of Siva is nothing but this purified, and concentrated Mind: mano hyevAtra daiva.m chaxuH. The Manas as coated with dense Matter may be described as dense or sense-bound. And in this state the Vayu too is no longer rectilinear in its motion. Every form of Vayu with which we are familiar in our sensible experience is of this type.


This oblique motion of Vayu in our physical body necessitates the existence of tracks of an oblique character. This is what is technically known as Nadichakra consisting of numerous Nadis ramifying in different directions. Leaving out the Susumna which is the central track of the straight motion of refined Vayu, the other Nadis may be loosely classed under two heads, Right and Left, from their position in relation to the Susumna. The Manas and Vayu of an ordinary man in his senses move along these winding tracks. This movement is his Samsara - his Vyutthana.

The Nathas insist that if the Absolute is to be reached, the central Track, which leads directly into it as a river loses itself in the ocean, must be found out and resorted to. All other ways will mislead, as leading to the different planes of material existence, because they contain sediment of gross matter. As soon as the divergent currents of physical Manas, the vrttis of the senses, and of the physical Vayu i.e. the functions of the vital Principle, are brought to a point with a certain degree of intensity, there flashes forth a bright light representing the expression of the concentrated Saktis of the soul. This expression of Sakti is the revelation of Kundalini and its partial release from the obscuration of Matter.

Excerpt from the article "Some Aspects of the History and Doctrines of the Nathas" by Gopinath Kaviraj

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste,

Wonderful discussion of a profound topic indeed! I am finding myself going back and reading the post more than once as to grasp its real purport and meaning(s).

My contention is that 'day' and 'night' have no difference for a 'muni'; especially one such as Ramana Maharishi. As already mentioned, a jnani is in samadhi even when awake as well as in 'deep sleep' (physically). However, whether one is a jnani or not, the physical principles of the phenomenal world still apply. Meaning, if a muni where to stand in front of a moving train, he will still be squashed just as an ignoramus in front of a train would be. The 'withdrawal of senses' discussed in the Gita, I believe, alludes to curbing the desires and achieving equanimity of mind. This is because when the mind is in perpetual motion (restless), thinking of the Supreme is much more difficult.

Anyway, much of what has been discussed in this thread is very profound and reflects ideas I've never even heard of, let alone read/learnt. I am glad that HDF is a place where I can learn of many 'new' (to me) things about Sanatana Dharma.

Subham.

[atanu]

-
551. He neither directs the sense-organs to their objects nor detaches them from these, but stays like an unconcerned spectator. And he has not the least regard for the fruits of actions, his mind being thoroughly inebriated with drinking the undiluted elixir of the Bliss of the Atman.

552. He who, giving up all considerations of the fitness or otherwise of objects of meditation, lives as the Absolute Atman, is verily Shiva Himself, and he is the best among the knowers of Brahman.

Namaste MahaHrada,

Thank you for a detailed discussion and explanation.

551. He neither directs the sense-organs to their objects nor detaches them from these, but stays like an unconcerned spectator. And he has not the least regard for the fruits of actions, his mind being thoroughly inebriated with drinking the undiluted elixir of the Bliss of the Atman.

552. He who, giving up all considerations of the fitness or otherwise of objects of meditation, lives as the Absolute Atman, is verily Shiva Himself, and he is the best among the knowers of Brahman.

Om

[Kaos]

My contention is that 'day' and 'night' have no difference for a 'muni'; especially one such as Ramana Maharishi. As already mentioned, a jnani is in samadhi even when awake as well as in 'deep sleep' (physically). However, whether one is a jnani or not, the physical principles of the phenomenal world still apply. Meaning, if a muni where to stand in front of a moving train, he will still be squashed just as an ignoramus in front of a train would be. The 'withdrawal of senses' discussed in the Gita, I believe, alludes to curbing the desires and achieving equanimity of mind. This is because when the mind is in perpetual motion (restless), thinking of the Supreme is much more difficult.

Namaste,

I agree. I also believe that the message in the above Chapter is transcendental in nature.

A muni knows his true nature, therefore, would not even think of standing in front of a moving train.
A muni in Krishna consciousness, the original energy of the living entity is in a higher state of consciousness, above that of the sensual, mental and intellectual.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan
Bhairavi mudra which is the state or seal of the Melapasiddhas is described in the MahAnayaprakAsha of Arnasimha in the following way:

Bhairavi is said to be the seal that having filled the spectacle of duality generated by the intensity of her innate power is free of being and non being her glorious power full and perfect and form unobscured, Bhairavi by nature this is the gesture full to overflowing with the oneness (samarasya) which is the waveless expansion of consciousness of these melapasiddhas.

Namaste Mahahradanatha
Thank you for your contributions to this conversation. Yes, I see what you say regarding bhairavīmudrā. The method ( mudra&#185 of inner absorbtion (samādhi&#185 with external use or expansion (vikāsa&#185 of the senses.

This inner absorbtion some may call the saṃkoca of śakti - or turning back from all sides of the external spread of śakti. Yet maintaining this concentration while eyes are open is bhairavīmudrā as you mention.

Bhatta Kallaṭa, a śiṣya of Vasugupta, said it this way, That i.e. the development of vikāsa or madhya¹ śhakti is accomplished by the transformation ( rūpādiṣu pariṇāmāt) even in the presence of forms.

What do I think becomes of this? The sādhu becomes sakala - whole possessing all its component parts , complete , entire , whole or samasta¹. Some would prefer this word be nisakala without parts or undivided and I am also fine either way. The key for me is samasta.

Perhaps you care to give your views or extend the conversation…do you think bhairavīmudrā = kramamudrā

pranams,


1. words used

• vikāsa विकास - expanding , budding, growth
• madhya मध्य middlemost , intermediate , central ;standing between two
• samadhi समाधि - union , a whole , aggregate , completion; sama meaning balanced, complete, pure, or even "dissolved". Dhi refers to intellect, memory and inner reasoning. Samadhi is a state of inner calmness which is born out of sincere practice.
• samasta समस्त -combined , united , whole ; inherent in or pervading the whole
• sakala सकल possessing all its component parts , complete, entire , whole
• nisakala निष्कल - without parts , undivided
• Bhairavīmudrā:
  mudrā मुद्रा - sealing in, a lock or seal; stamp or impression made by a seal ; stamp or print or mark or impression ; we note that mud मुद् is to mix, mingle, yet also means joy and delight.
  
  Bhairavī भैरवी is śrī devī; It is said śiva is known through śakti - Vijñāna Bhairava, kārikā 21.
• saṃkoca saMkoca or saNkoca संकोच - contraction , shrinking together , compression ; limitation , restriction
• śiṣya शिष्य - student some prefer the word chela
• krama क्रम a step; going , proceeding ; uninterrupted or regular progress

[MahaHrada]

Perhaps you care to give your views or extend the conversation…do you think bhairavīmudrā = kramamudrā

Namaste Yajvan,
The concept of the mudras and the associated states of mind is very complex, and after trying hard, for a few days to arrive at a good answer i fear the discussion requires a qualification and knowledge i do not have.

I only wanted to point out that when approaching the sense impressions in such a way as to combine mukti (release from bondage) with bhukti (pleasures of the sense organs) like in bhairavi mudra we are traversing beyond what is mentionend in the gita and what is usually sanctioned by vedanta and other darshanas. The turning point between tantric darshanas and conventional darshanas is not so much the question "What do we do to reach samadhi" as it is the question "What do we do, or what is our state after we have reached samadhi and return to a state of mind where we receive sense impressions again.

A series of states of mind are triggered in tantric path when entering samadhi and when we return to sense impressions and these manifests (or can even be triggered,) in form of the different mudras, (=body speech and mind postures) especially the 5 main mudras in trika, where the first karankini, the death like mudra can be likened to the "conventional" samadhi, those that follow and combine the external with internal sate start with bhairavimudra they are beyond "conventional" samadhi, and thus maybe are not covered by the Gita.This is why i mentioned this mudra and not the others.


MahaHrada

Mudras.
Their ascending order is:

Karankini the state of the Jnana siddhas internal samadhi experience
Krodhani the state of the Mantrasiddhas external world experience
Bhairavi the state of the Melapa siddhas experiencing both states (of external and internal samadhi)
Lelihani the state of the Shaktasiddhas dissolving the combinend state of external and internal samadhi
Khechari the state of the Shambhavasiddhas unifying the last two states of experience and dissolution.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,
The concept of the mudras and the associated states of mind is very complex, and after trying hard, for a few days to arrive at a good answer i fear the discussion requires a qualification and knowledge i do not have.

I only wanted to point out that when approaching the sense impressions in such a way as to combine mukti (release from bondage) with bhukti (pleasures of the sense organs) like in bhairavi mudra we are traversing beyond what is mentioned in the gita and what is usually sanctioned by vedanta and other darshanas. The turning point between tantric darshanas and conventional darshanas is not so much the question "What do we do to reach samadhi" as it is the question "What do we do, or what is our state after we have reached samadhi and return to a state of mind where we receive sense impressions again.

Namaste MahaHrada
Thank you for taking the time to consider my question. I see your POV as my question reaches outside the classical views of Bhāgavad gītā. I ask these types of questions as my studies also take me to different views of the same great wisdom offered in the gītā.

How so ? Various authors look at this great work through their eyes and paramparā. My studies take me to connecting the dots. This wisdom found in the gītā is of the highest truth. Truth (satyam) in the āgama-s, tantra-s and saṃhitā-s also sing of this truth. Satyam is the connection point, there cannot be multiple truths, but there can be multiple views. This is the richness of Sanatana Dharma.

So where do my views stem from? The merging, studying and pondering the following gītā versions:

• Śrīla Prabhupāda's work
• Abhinavagupta's gītārtha-saṁgraha . After each chapter Śrī Abhinava offers one verse (saṁgraha) at the end of each chapter that encapsulates the main teaching of the chapter.
  
• Maharishi Mahesh Yogi - Maharishi only translated the first 6 chapters (some see this great work in 3's; 1 to 6, 7-12 and 13 to 18 chapters); yet this work is worthy of study.
• Another is by S. Radhakrishnan
• Śrī J�ānadeva, only on this planet for 20 years, his work is most insightful. If you look for it goes by the name Bhāvārṭa Dīpīka, some call J�āneshwarī ( I am sure you are familiar with this work)
• Also Svami Śivanānda's commentary on the gītā brings a new view.
  

It is from studying these that the cross-pollination of ideas, insights and ahhh-ha's in my understanding arise. Perhaps you can add additional insights or ideas. As I see it, multiple views of this wisdom is most helpful for one to have insights into Reality.

From these insights may we all be like Arjuna as he says in chapt 18, śloka 73, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā - dispelled is my illusion my memory is regained.


pranams