Liberation

**Lakshmi USA** · 22 March 2006, 06:00 PM

What would you exactly define Liberation. I have heard this across different discussions and somewhere I read that realisation of god is liberation.

please also share your experiences if it woudnt be too much to ask about liberation.

**Sudarshan** · 22 March 2006, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by Lakshmi USA

What would you exactly define Liberation. I have heard this across different discussions and somewhere I read that realisation of god is liberation.

please also share your experiences if it woudnt be too much to ask about liberation.

Liberation is the liberation from the wheel of life and death, which is a source of constant misery. Liberation is a state of bliss and consciousness.

No two religions talk of liberation in an identical way-

Advaita's liberation takes the form of two ways, one is krama mukti (gradual liberation) by moving through the higher worlds, and sadyO mukti (instantaneous liberation), which is absolute dissolution into the Brahman.

Vishsistadvaita's liberation takes the form of sayujya, which is a state of one-ness with God, but yet retaining an individuality.

Dvaita's liberation takes the form of either sAlOkya ( living in the world of Brahman), sAmIpya ( nearness to God), sArUpya( having an appearance similar to God) and sayujya.

Many western religions have only the concept of heaven, which is nothing glamorous or of lasting value to any Hindu school.

**sarabhanga** · 23 March 2006, 02:03 AM

Namaste Sudarshan,

Vishishtadvaita considers that Jivatman is always a part of Paramatman.
Dvaita considers that Jivatman is always apart from Paramatman.

Sayujya (as the state of unity with God, but retaining individuality) is quite different in Vishishtadvaita and Dvaita.

In Vishishtadvaita, the Sayujya Jivatman is a part of Paramatman.
In Dvaita, the Sayujya Jivatman is very close (at the foot of God, or on the hand of God) but always technically apart from the Paramatman.

**satay** · 23 March 2006, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by sarabhanga

Namaste Sudarshan,

Vishishtadvaita considers that Jivatman is always a part of Paramatman.
Dvaita considers that Jivatman is always apart from Paramatman.

Sayujya (as the state of unity with God, but retaining individuality) is quite different in Vishishtadvaita and Dvaita.

In Vishishtadvaita, the Sayujya Jivatman is a part of Paramatman.
In Dvaita, the Sayujya Jivatman is very close (at the foot of God, or on the hand of God) but always technically apart from the Paramatman.

I am not against Dvaita and not being arrogant but it seems that in Dvaita we have a "dog's life" eternally!

satay

**Sudarshan** · 23 March 2006, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by sarabhanga

Namaste Sudarshan,

Vishishtadvaita considers that Jivatman is always a part of Paramatman.
Dvaita considers that Jivatman is always apart from Paramatman.

Sayujya (as the state of unity with God, but retaining individuality) is quite different in Vishishtadvaita and Dvaita.

In Vishishtadvaita, the Sayujya Jivatman is a part of Paramatman.
In Dvaita, the Sayujya Jivatman is very close (at the foot of God, or on the hand of God) but always technically apart from the Paramatman.

sayuja is very rare in Dvaita. As I understand only Sri is capable of it. Any dvaitins here may clarify otherwise.

**Sudarshan** · 23 March 2006, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by satay

I am not against Dvaita and not being arrogant but it seems that in Dvaita we have a "dog's life" eternally!

satay

Hmm, so you consider servitude to Bhagavan as "dog's life"?

**Sudarshan** · 23 March 2006, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by sarabhanga

Namaste Sudarshan,

Vishishtadvaita considers that Jivatman is always a part of Paramatman.
Dvaita considers that Jivatman is always apart from Paramatman.

Sayujya (as the state of unity with God, but retaining individuality) is quite different in Vishishtadvaita and Dvaita.

In Vishishtadvaita, the Sayujya Jivatman is a part of Paramatman.
In Dvaita, the Sayujya Jivatman is very close (at the foot of God, or on the hand of God) but always technically apart from the Paramatman.

Yes, I know that Sayujya in dvaita is different, and carries a different meaning for V.A. You are infinitely inferior to Bhagavan even in sayujya, in dvaita. Note that I did not expand the meaning of the word sayuja, becuase their sayuja is only a kind of oneness.

**Namo Narayana** · 23 March 2006, 09:17 PM

sometimes i would like to consider god is in yourself and you can achieve your goal thru it. when you constantly pray the lord even without knowledge of vedantas , you will see that your prayers make you believe god is your mind.

contrarily sometimes i Like to believe god is great and the only one. that times i wasnt able to build my energy thru mind.

I think satay said dog's life means when you believe your mind is god it is a different feeling. it is not an insult to the god. God cannot be insulted. it is just a provision that you can raise yourself from you............
But i dont see a good taste in comparison of dogs life with being in dvaita . atleast a literal analogy like that is hard to understand. Probably only satay can explain that.

**satay** · 23 March 2006, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

Hmm, so you consider servitude to Bhagavan as "dog's life"?

Ever looked at dog's life closely? A dog serves his master nicely. He wags his tail when the master sits. He licks master's feet when the master sits. He gets yelled at yet he comes back to the master sometimes with tears in his eyes but he comes back to the master.

Do you think that we exist as part and parcel of bhagwan to end up in a dog's life or is there something more to the mystery?

Gita 18.55
bhaktya mam abhijanati
yavan yas casmi tattvatah
tato mam tattvato jnatva
visate tad-anantaram

What is the meaning of 'visate' here?

Anyway, I don't see anything wrong in a dog's life if the master is bhagwan himself!
satay

**Sudarshan** · 24 March 2006, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by satay

Ever looked at dog's life closely? A dog serves his master nicely. He wags his tail when the master sits. He licks master's feet when the master sits. He gets yelled at yet he comes back to the master sometimes with tears in his eyes but he comes back to the master.

Do you think that we exist as part and parcel of bhagwan to end up in a dog's life or is there something more to the mystery?

Dvaita does not say moksha is dog's life. It just says that jiva is paratantra( dependent on the Lord) for existance. Vishsitadvaita also has the same opinion. Paratantra does not mean a slave or servant. It simply means the jiva derives his energy from the Lord. Beyond that jiva has a lot of powers and can do anything he wishes. Powers of the jiva are virtually unlimited by earthly comparisons even in dvaita.

Originally Posted by satay

Gita 18.55
bhaktya mam abhijanati
yavan yas casmi tattvatah
tato mam tattvato jnatva
visate tad-anantaram

What is the meaning of 'visate' here?

visati is to enter. Does not automatically imply sayujya.

Originally Posted by satay

Anyway, I don't see anything wrong in a dog's life if the master is bhagwan himself!
satay

Good. Why assume that you are svatantra when there is no indication of any kind? Are we able to even manage and control the very insignificant things in life? We are truly paratantras only, or we have to assume so until it can be verified in samAdhi or moksha.