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Thread: Feel Attracted to ISKCON

  1. #1
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    Feel Attracted to ISKCON

    Last Sunday night, my wife and I visited the ISKCON temple. We'd gone to the Sathya Sai Baba temple that was opposite the ISKCON temple, as a lady who ran a bookshop in Kuala Lumpur invited us there for bhajans. When I saw the ISKCON temple from the Sai temple, I was filled with a sense of deepest longing to be there. I had and do still have some issues with ISKCON, but those disappeared as soon as I saw the temple. After the Sai bhajans had finished, my wife and I went to the ISKCON temple. It was really nice, and it felt really spiritual. We went back on Tuesday night for the evening programme, and talked to the temple president. I discussed with him some of the issues that I have with ISKCON, mainly that Krishna is the Supreme and all the other gods are His servants. I purchased a copy of Bhagavad-Gita As It Is. The service was lovely, and I especially liked the kirtan. I'd visited a non-ISKCON Krishna temple before, and it was nice, but they had no Kirtan. I love the Gaudiya Arati, and I realised that every type of puja I've seen, I've compared it to the Gaudiya Arati that I'd seen several years ago at the ISKCON temple in New Zealand.

    One of the men there told me that he was a Shiva devotee, and then Lord Shiva appeared to him in a dream and told him to go to Krishna. He didn't, and Lord Shiva appeared to him several more times, and on two instances Lord Shiva prophesised the death of his mother, and then his brother. The last time, he said that the man himself would die if he didn't go to Krishna. He went, and then his family started going to the Krishna temple as well.

    I'm feeling spiritually confused at the moment - I love the ISKCON temple with the chanting, kirtan and beautiful arati, but I don't know if I can follow their strict lifestyle - being vegetarian, not having caffeine (there goes McDonald's and Coca-Cola), or chanting 16 rounds of the Hare Krishna mantra. I don't know exactly how my wife feels - she loves the food and likes the temple, but I'm not sure if she wants to be part of it.

    Does anyone here know of any Shaivites who joined ISKCON, or any ISKCON devotees who left and became Shaivites? And does anyone know of any other Gaudiya Vaishnava groups that 1) have the same practices as ISKCON such as kirtan, but 2) aren't as strict as ISKCON, and 3) have a centre in Kuala Lumpur or somewhere in Malaysia?

    Please share any thoughts and advice that you have for me.

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    Re: Feel Attracted to ISKCON

    My advice is to never believe in any person who claims truth to be exclusive. Nor believe in anyone/anything which claims something is inferior to their own.

    ISKCON is primarily a organization which supports duality school of thought, and discards the principles which form an important part of Vedas. It discards impersonal brahman(spirit), and disgraces other subsects of hinduism like Shaiva, Shakta etc.

    The Aarti, Pooja, Chants etc are for purification of mind. They make mind focussed(concentrated). When mind concentrates then bliss and happiness automatically comes(like when you watch a great movie).

    So it does not matter whether you do pooja, chanting on your own or in a organization. But do them, and purify the mind, concentrate it.

    They follow strict rules for self-control. With self-control spirituality is attained easily.

    So you can join ISKCON or you can do it in your house. Because self-control comes from within you.

    It does not matter whether you join Vaishnava or other organizations. If you want my advice join Ramakrishna Mission. A great organization without any partiality to any sects.
    --------------------

    And it seems funny that Shiva comes in dreams and warns a person if he does not worship Krishna then he would die. It is either made up or just a infatuation. Shiva is no way lesser to Krishna, verily "All is One". You shall know it in future may it take another million years.

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    Re: Feel Attracted to ISKCON

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~


    Namaste ScottMalaysia

    First let me say I do not have your answer. The answer is in you. Because you have freedom, remember you can change your mind at a later time. Consider going at a pace that is commensurate with your experience and your knowledge.
    What you may have to give up may be small to what you will gain? You may need to consider your lifestyle ( food intake and the like) at a different time. That said, you mention
    I love the ISKCON temple with the chanting, kirtan and beautiful arati,
    I will assume, your adoration is directed to Krsna, yes? It just so happens ISKCON translates that in a way that is attractive to you I suspect. It would seem to me to ponder the relationship with Krsna first. Then the ISKCON question , food intake, all that will fall in line.

    Perhaps going to the temple more often... enjoy the environment, soak it up. Get comfortable in it and see if there is some additional information that will unfold, by being in the environment more. I have found this helps. Perhaps you will find your answer in this fashion.

    Regarding the man that talked of Siva... that applies to him not to you. We do not know of his experience and what happened. So we respect the man's experience, but that was him not you.

    pranams
    Last edited by yajvan; 28 June 2008 at 06:10 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Feel Attracted to ISKCON

    Dear Scott,

    Bhargavasai & yajvan have given good advice. Let me add from my side :

    I have accepted Lord Krishna as my Guru, Guide & God & has been taking inspirations from his teachings for years together. It pains me to hear the following :

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMalaysia View Post
    One of the men there told me that he was a Shiva devotee, and then Lord Shiva appeared to him in a dream and told him to go to Krishna. He didn't, and Lord Shiva appeared to him several more times, and on two instances Lord Shiva prophesised the death of his mother, and then his brother. The last time, he said that the man himself would die if he didn't go to Krishna. He went, and then his family started going to the Krishna temple as well.
    He will kill you if you don't worship Him ? --- That makes look Lord Krishna highly egoist ! Please don't degrade Lord Krishna, the yogeshwar, the SELF of all, to such a low level. Read Bhagwat Gita which is the essence of the Vedanta & then you will know that there is no difference in Lord Krishna, the Lord Shiva & others. The differences are in names & forms & seemingly different worshipping methodologies ... but those differences are due to varying requirements of various devotees & not because one form of God is greater than the other ! This is simply a conditioned way of thinking of those people who have come from Abrahmic religions where the God has been shown to be extremely egoist & highly possessive. If God is like that then I would prefer to go without such a God !

    There is just ONE without a second, my dear. That ONE is the all there is. You may give It any name, any form, any characteristics but It is really without any name, any form and devoid of any characteristics that we may think of. By giving Him a name who is without name, by giving Him a form which is formless we try to bring the Infinite to finite limits so that He who cannot be realised through our limited mental grasping capacity can be toned down to that level which we can grasp & relate to.

    By making pilgrimage to Thee (to a form in a temple of worship) Thy all-pervasiveness has been defiled by me. With my meditation, Thy transcendence of the mind has been defiled by me. By singing your praise Thy transcendence of speech has been defiled by me. Ever forgive me these three sins.
    ---- ( AvadhUta Gita, VIII.I)

    And So, by giving you a particular name & seeing you in a particular form I have committed sins against your INFINITE all pervasive, unthinkable nature; O' God, please forgive me for these sins ( which is inescapable due to my limited character) !

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 28 June 2008 at 09:50 PM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Feel Attracted to ISKCON

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    He will kill you if you don't worship Him ? --- That makes look Lord Krishna highly egoist !
    He never said that Lord Krishna would kill him. The man said that Lord Shiva only told him that he would die if he didn't go to the Krishna temple. That doesn't mean that Krishna would kill him - I'm assuming that something might have been going to happen to him that would result in his death, like an accident, and only Krishna could prevent it. If Lord Shiva couldn't prevent it, what does that say about him?

    Please don't degrade Lord Krishna, the yogeshwar, the SELF of all, to such a low level. Read Bhagwat Gita which is the essence of the Vedanta & then you will know that there is no difference in Lord Krishna, the Lord Shiva & others. The differences are in names & forms & seemingly different worshipping methodologies ... but those differences are due to varying requirements of various devotees & not because one form of God is greater than the other !
    I talked with a devotee at the temple yesterday, and he said that there are 64 qualities of God, and that Lord Shiva possesses only 56.


    There is just ONE without a second, my dear. That ONE is the all there is. You may give It any name, any form, any characteristics but It is really without any name, any form and devoid of any characteristics that we may think of. By giving Him a name who is without name, by giving Him a form which is formless we try to bring the Infinite to finite limits so that He who cannot be realised through our limited mental grasping capacity can be toned down to that level which we can grasp & relate to.
    Doesn't the Bhagavad-Gita say that the personal form of God is the highest level of God realization?

  6. #6

    Re: Feel Attracted to ISKCON

    Namaste Scott.

    I talked with a devotee at the temple yesterday, and he said that there are 64 qualities of God, and that Lord Shiva possesses only 56.
    I think Shvetashvatara Upanishad, knows a bit more about God then this devotee. And in Shvetashvatara Upanishad 3.11 we find
    All this universe is in the glory of God, of Siva, the God of love. The heads and faces of men are His own, and He is in the hearts of all.
    Sure doesn't sound like an incomplete form of God.

    Doesn't the Bhagavad-Gita say that the personal form of God is the highest level of God realization?
    Personally I agree with this, but I don't believe this God Devotee just described is impersonal.

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    Re: Feel Attracted to ISKCON

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMalaysia View Post
    I'm assuming that something might have been going to happen to him that would result in his death, like an accident, and only Krishna could prevent it. If Lord Shiva couldn't prevent it, what does that say about him?
    Have no doubts. If Shiva cannot prevent it, then Krishna too can't do it. This presumption is coming from ignorance & has no leg to stand on.

    I talked with a devotee at the temple yesterday, and he said that there are 64 qualities of God, and that Lord Shiva possesses only 56.
    Has he reailsed God ? If not, let him quote some authority i.e. shruti to support his views.

    Doesn't the Bhagavad-Gita say that the personal form of God is the highest level of God realization?
    No. Lord Krishna says that the highest level of God realisation is in Jnan Yoga & in admiration of Jnani he says that a Jnani is just another form of Him only. Mind it, he has not praised any devotee like this.

    Regarding Shiva, he says, " I am Shankara among the eleven Rudras". Read Chapter-10 of Bhagwat Gita wherein you will find that same God has many forms & names. Understanding true meaning of Bhagwat Gita is possible only when one has true understanding of the Upanishads. Lord Krishna has been likened to be the milkman who has milked the cows i.e. the Upanishads to get the milk i.e. the highest knowledge in the form of Bhagwat Gita. Do the Upanishads differentiate between Lord Krishna & Lord Shiva ? They only talk about the SELF, The ONE without a second. There is no room left for duality, here !

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Feel Attracted to ISKCON

    I looked up that verse in the Shvetashvetara Upanishad and one translation used 'Bhagavan' and 'Lord' instead of Shiva. I'd like to see the original Sanskrit, but I can't find it online.

    The Gita Mahatmya, a part of the Padma Purana, is a dialogue between Lord Shiva and Mother Parvati. Lord Shiva says:

    ekam sastram devaki-putra-gitam
    eko devo devaki-putra eva
    eko mantras tasya namani yani
    karmapy ekam tasya devasya seva
    (Gita-mahatmya 7)

    (7) In this present day, people are very eager to have one scripture, one God, one religion, and one occupation. So Therefore, ekam sastram devaki-putra-gitam: let there beone scripture only,one common scripture, for the whole world—Bhagavad-gita. And Eko devo devaki-putra eva: let there be one God only for the whole world—Sri Krsna. Eko mantras tasya namani: And one hymn, one mantra, one prayer only—the chanting of His name: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Karmapy ekam tasya devasya seva: And let there be one work only—the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

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    Re: Feel Attracted to ISKCON

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMalaysia View Post
    I looked up that verse in the Shvetashvetara Upanishad and one translation used 'Bhagavan' and 'Lord' instead of Shiva. I'd like to see the original Sanskrit, but I can't find it online.

    The Gita Mahatmya, a part of the Padma Purana, is a dialogue between Lord Shiva and Mother Parvati. Lord Shiva says:

    ekam sastram devaki-putra-gitam
    eko devo devaki-putra eva
    eko mantras tasya namani yani
    karmapy ekam tasya devasya seva (Gita-mahatmya 7)

    (7) In this present day, people are very eager to have one scripture, one God, one religion, and one occupation. So Therefore, ekam sastram devaki-putra-gitam: let there beone scripture only,one common scripture, for the whole world—Bhagavad-gita. And Eko devo devaki-putra eva: let there be one God only for the whole world—Sri Krsna. Eko mantras tasya namani: And one hymn, one mantra, one prayer only—the chanting of His name: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Karmapy ekam tasya devasya seva: And let there be one work only—the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead."
    Namaste Scott,
    Why don't you read other Puranas like Devi Bhagwat, Vishnu Purana, Shiva Purana too ? You will have enough material to get confused in deciding who is higher than who ! Their (Puranas's) meaning have to be understood in correct perspective. They are written for a particular section of devotees in mind & to that extent they are true only relatively but not in absolute sense. In Devi Bhagwat, nothing is considered supreme to the Mother Goddess. Same is true for for Shiva in Shiva Purana. These are relative truths. Anything written anywhere if contradicting with the Shruti is no authority to decide a dispute. Shruti are the only authority.

    Lord Krishna is supreme, no doubt, but Shiva is too because they are basically the same except the name & the form.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Feel Attracted to ISKCON

    Rig Veda 1:22:20 "The princes evermore behold that loftiest place where Viṣṇu is,Laid as it were an eye in heaven."

    The Purusha Sukta (Rig Veda 10:90) refers to Purusha, the Supreme Being. Commentators of the Rig Veda have written that Purusha refer to Lord Vishnu.

    Rig Veda 10:82:6 "The waters verily first retained the embryo in which all the gods were aggregated, single deposited on the navel of the unborn (creator), in which all beings abide. The reference to the navel of the unborn is an indication of reference to Vishnu."

    Rig Veda: V.I.15b.3 "O ye who wish to gain realization of the supreme truth, utter the name of Vishnu at least once in the steadfast faith that it will lead you to such realization."

    Katha Upanishad 1:3:9 "A man who has discrimination for his charioteer and holds the reins of the mind firmly, reaches the end of the road; and that is the supreme position of Vishnu."

    And the Brahma-Samhita is full of quotes by Lord Brahma who attests the fact that Lord Krishna is the Supreme.

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