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Thread: I and My Father are One

  1. #1
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    I and My Father are One

    namaste,

    If possible, it would be nice to continue discussion (from the 'Why' thread) of this famous verse from the bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    John 10:30, “I and My Father are one.”

    What could possibly mean by this statement of Jesus? I would like for you to tell me when Jesus refers to Himself with “I”, does it reflect his lower “I” or the higher “I“ from Ramana’s “I –I”?

    There are many verses that clearly show the consciousness in Jesus is in union with the supreme Consciousness.
    I read the previous verses than 10.30 and some verses proceeding this as well.

    It seems to me that Jesus is not actually saying "he and father are one" in the sense that rsi says "Aham Brahamasmi".

    It seems that jesus means to say that 'he' and the 'father' are 'one' in 'purpose' i.e. their 'purpose' is one. And what is that purpose? Read verses starting from about 10.20 John.

    I and My Father are one perhaps in the Dharmic context but that's not how John means it, at least that's my understanding.
    satay

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    Re: I and My Father are One

    Namaste,

    I'm no Xn or Hindu to give authoritative anything, but whatever LOL


    When there is NO DIFFERENCE between One and Other ... then there is somewhat of an unhindered clarity, seems to me.

    Many Xns have quite disparate interpretations of above referenced - seems it depends on one's point ov view.


    ZN
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

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    Light Re: I and My Father are One

    In the beginning was vAk, and vAk was with yahva, and vAk was yahvI.

    In the beginning, yama was with yamI, and the yamau was yahvI.

    All things were made by her; and without her was not any thing made that was made.

    In her was life; and the life was the light of men.

    And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    That was the AtmA, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become nArAyaNAs, which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of nArA (yahvI).

    And vAk was made flesh, and dwelt among us (yeSu), and we beheld his yajña as yahva, the only begotten of yahvI, full of shiva and satI.

    And of his bRMhaNam have all we received, and namaH shivAya (grace for grace).

    No man hath seen nara at any time, the only begotten nArAyaNa, which is in the bosom of yahvI, he hath declared him.

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    Re: I and My Father are One

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    It seems that jesus means to say that 'he' and the 'father' are 'one' in 'purpose' i.e. their 'purpose' is one.
    In John 17:21, Jesus prays "That they [his followers] all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

    He is praying that his followers may be one, i.e. one in purpose, and not divided.

    This verse is used by Jehovah's Witnesses, who don't believe in the Trinity or that Jesus Christ is God (in fact they believe him to be Michael the Archangel), to refute Jesus' statement "I and My Father are one" as being a reference to the Trinity.

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    Re: I and My Father are One

    Namaste.

    In common English, 'are one' is a phrase used to indicate similarity rather than unity. The English phrase that indicates unity is 'are one and the same'.

    A Christian common who is not familiar with Hinduism, Dvaita or Advaita is likely to interpret the line "I and My Father are one" in John 10:30 in two ways:

    • Jesus is God in flesh, so he and the Father make up "one God"--when this line is read in isolation, out of context.

    • Jesus and God are one in purpose (as Satay says), thoughts and desire--when this line is read in association, in context with those preceding and following.

    In isolation, out of context, the line "I and My Father are one" is a good line for a Christian to meditate upon. But no Christian common would dare to extrapolate this line to mean that he/she, like Jesus, 'is one' with God, because then there would be no further need for Jesus to let him/her commune with God!

    Secondly, the Bible and the Church have drummed for centuries to the Christian commons that God is Supreme, Jesus is His only son, Christian humans are His children, and other humans are the children of the Devil. Therefore no Christian common even if he/she is familiar with Dvaita and Advaita, would dare to read more into the line, even in meditation, let alone expression in speech and writing.

    Compare this line where Jesus talks only about himself with the teachings of the Rishis in the Hindu Upanishads. Unlike Jesus, the Rishis have boldly declared for the whole mankind--not just for the Hindu faithfuls--the great sayings such as 'aham brahma asmi' (I am Brahman), 'tat tvam asi' (That thou art), 'prajnAnam brahman' (you are Brahman in consciousness). It will be helpful if someone could point out that Jesus unambiguously exhorts his followers that they, he and God are one and the same, in the Bible.

    Many Bible commentators/annotators do not read the Advaitic meaning in the declaration of Jesus 'I and my Father are one', as can be vefiried from many Bible Websites. It is in fact pointed out that "he who plants and he who waters are one" (1 Cor. 3:8 - KJV) is translated as "he who plants and he who waters have one purpose."; and that Jesus "uses the concept of 'being one' in other places, and from them one can see that 'one purpose' is what is meant." (http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/mod...owpage&pid=102)

    Thus it seems to me that the Advaitic extension the neo-apologetics try to provide for Jesus's declaration in John 10:30 is a clear case of extrapolation, usually done with a purpose and an agenda, not to recognize Hinduism as a parent dharma of Christianity but to rule it out.
    Last edited by saidevo; 15 July 2008 at 10:23 AM.

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    Re: I and My Father are One

    Namaste.

    "I and my Father are one", John 10:30. This line that Jesus says in context, is highlighted as the chief message of Jesus. Is there any other message he gave to the Christian world, and what meanings do they lend to?

    I have underlined the key expressions in the following quotes from John, NT for analysis:

    10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
    10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

    What is the message in the line "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers."? Isn't it one of the instances where Jesus sows hatred against people of other faiths?

    John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

    How can a man be 'saved' when he goes 'in and out' of Jesus, the door? Is it indicative of the concepts of 'karma and rebirth'? If a man who enters by 'the door' to the heavens comes back, what does it say of the efficacy of 'the door'?

    10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    There we have the seeds of the mission of Jesus: in other 'folds', the 'sheep' are guarded by 'wolfs'; the wolfs must be destroyed, the sheep released and brought under the Christian fold.
    Last edited by saidevo; 15 July 2008 at 10:26 AM.

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    Re: I and My Father are One

    How can a man be 'saved' when he goes 'in and out' of Jesus, the door? Is it indicative of the concepts of 'karma and rebirth'? If a man who enters by 'the door' to the heavens comes back, what does it say of the efficacy of 'the door'?

    Namaste,

    If one considers the Christ (Jesus) as process rather than incarnation specifically, then it makes sense, at least to me

    Perhaps it is because I have somewhat of a shamanistic pov ... time to me is not linear, rather holographic, so it is not a matter of past-present-future, but more of simultaneity.

    When there is no difference (one and the Same) time and space have no relevance.

    The "door" is that which is opened on top the head, in prayer, I think. YMMV.

    Love,
    ZN
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

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    Re: I and My Father are One

    Namaste ZN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Znanna View Post
    The "door" is that which is opened on top the head, in prayer, I think. YMMV.
    If the 'door' is the sahasrAra chakra that opens on top of head in prayer and meditation, Jesus would have referred to other 'doors' within the 'house' of the body--the other six chakras--too. Do we find any such references in the Bible?

    If on the other hand, the 'door' is the opening the soul passes through when it leaves the body:

    According to Hinduism, the prANa (which carries the Jiva) would leave (at the time of death) through one of the nine holes in our body. Depending on which hole it leaves through, the next birth would be decided! For yogis, a tenth hole would be formed in the head (at the apex), the Jiva will leave through it and reach lofty worlds. This path is known as the archirAdi mArga (the path of light). For the jIvan muktas who are jnAnis, the prANa would shrink in the Atma, without leaving through any of the ten holes. (Explanation of Sri Muralidhara Swamiji)

    Christian religion is meant for the 'farmers and shepherds' at which level the Church wants to keep their 'flock' at all times, lest individual, independent, inquiry might see the Church, Jesus and Christ in perspective. Some Christian scholars and neo-apologetics familiar with the ancient religions and Hinduism try to read their concepts in the Bible, which in my opinion, only makes the Bible more hotchpotch than it is and confuse the Christian commons.

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    Re: I and My Father are One

    Namaste, saidevo,


    While there are references to "temple" in the Biblical scripture and derivative debate relative to whether the "body of Christ" is physical or virtual or whatever, I'd say my extrapolation was JMO (as usual). To me, the heart of Christianity is lost on most self-averring Christians, whatever.

    As more of a shamanistic sort, I'm accustomed to entering and leaving body/s through many means. Doesn't have a damn thing to do with any orthodoxy

    Remember, I'm a chaos mage, no evangelical!

    Love,
    ZN
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

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    Re: I and My Father are One

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    In common English, 'are one' is a phrase used to indicate similarity rather than unity. The English phrase that indicates unity is 'are one and the same'.
    Namaste saidevo
    There is a conundrum here as I see it. There is a sender and receiver , yes?. To the person that wrote this ( I and my Father are one) vs. the person that experinced one-ness this saṃghaṭṭa, union.
    Unless the author ( the recorder of this sentence mentioned) completely comprehends this experience of this level of Being, sattā, what could he write? How can express this level of existence Jesus experienced and proportedly said? What could he record while existing in duality?
    • I am my Father are one - for the recorder,this saying would most likely think, Jesus is saying he is the Lord
    • Would the recorder even have a inkling of advayatā ?
    • Is there other documents that perhaps the recorder could use as a reference to suggest (perhaps) Jesus was alluding to advayatā ?
    • Or was the recorder spiritually informed to discern the difference between duality and non-duality?
    These are the initial thoughts that came to mind. This , the recorder is steeped ( most likely?) in duality. Could he really write/appreciate/comprehend advitīa message if handed to him? If he did then he could perhaps frame the sentence in such a way that would avoid any mis-understandings.


    pranams

    sattā सत्ता- Being or Existence
    saghaṭṭa संघट्ट- union
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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