Member
Hi folks!
Just occurred to me! What is the relationship between Atma and manifested material body? Here is my point! Advaitins do seem to claim non-reality of the matter and its derivatives. Obviously, this lends itself to a conclusion that Atma alone is real without any attachment or relationships. If it is so, why at death the Atma that is liberated does get reincarnated? Why does it have to bear the burden of sins of material body even after being liberated?
Join in!
Blessings,
etad vai tat
Hari oṁ
~~~~~
Namaste nirotu (et.al)
The answer to your question can be found in the Mundakopaniṣad (along with many other śāstras and agamas).
Canto 3, valli 2, śloka-s 4 ,5 and 6.
The 4th śloka says ...and then his SELF enters into Brahman.
The 5th śloka says,
When the sage has attained the ātman they become satisfied with their knowledge ( jñāna-triptaḥ) their purpose is fulfilled; they become free from desire and are tranquil. Having attained the all-pervading ātman on-all-sides, and devoted to the SELF, they enter into everything ( i.e. Brahman).
The 6th śloka says,
...having purified their minds they attain the world of Brahman and at the time of death become fully liberated.
Nirotu, all has been accomplished , there is no motive or need to return to this level of existence.
The 8th sloka says the following
Just as the flowing rivers disappear in the sea, losing thier name and form, so also the seer freed from name and form go to the Divine who is greater than that great i.e. Brahman.
Yet if one wishes to know more about what happens after death then one must read what death, Yamarāja, has to say; for this you can review the Kathopaniṣad
pranams
Last edited by yajvan; 07 August 2008 at 10:31 PM.
यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
Member
Namaste Nirotu.
Your fundamental premise is wrong. Atma is NOT LIBERATED at death of the physical body: it simply goes to live in its astral body; on death of the astral body it gets into its mental body and resides in the heavens to enjoy the fruits of good karma.Originally Posted by nirotu
The cycle of death and rebirth is between these three bodies: physical, astral and mental. Liberation is the status where the Atma is able to shed all these three bodies as concomitant for its existence. Jivan Muktas experience the status of MokSha even while living in their physical bodies: their physical bodies might have shortcomings but their astral and mental bodies are pure, without the stain of karma, and this is why they attain MokSha or Liberation at death of the physical body.
Layers upon layers of material and karmic scum have accumulated in manifest Creation, over the cycles of yugas of time, upon the omnipresent and infinite substratum of Atman that is Brahman. Brahman's Universal Consciousness shines more or less through these pseudo-infinite, discrete units of material and karmic accumulations depending on their density of accretion. The problem is that like robots with A.I. these units pick up the distortions of the reflected Universal Consciousness, acquire individual selves and lead a life of their own, like the images on a movie screen. The units that are fed up with such life, seek the substratum and realize it, calm down into the pure white essence of bliss and are liberated.
Member
Thank you, Yajavan. Perhaps, we can explore it a bit.
It seems to me from what you cite here is that the condition of liberated Atman is very much dependent upon the knowledge (Jnana). Arent you making the truth more of a result of perfect theological understanding than the experience of a deeper moral life? What about those who have no knowledge through books yet have their soul immersed in God? What about sudden transformations or conversion of spirit from among seemingly commonplace souls with astonishing elevation among men who have never learned morals from any outside source?
I would very much like to believe that the liberated Atman never redirected into another material manifested body. I do believe that liberated souls sometime smile at the irrelevance of the anxious questionings about the ceremonial propriety which worry those in the lower stage of life! But if reincarnation is true, then Atma must have some relationship that cannot be wished away even after liberation, not from Sages but, from ordinary souls like mine!
Blessings,
Member
Thank you, Saidevo for that beautiful presentation. I cannot agree more on that. That said, I like to caution that I(we) need to be little careful with play of words, especially the context to which my post was referring to. What I mean by liberation is only from physical human package! That five foot ten inch frame of a body is no longer living or breathing. I am referring to its relationship with the Atma upon liberation from that mortal body.
If I may belabor the point, I see how beautifully the Dvaita has been outlined in your response! Your reference to the veiling power of layers of material, Karmic scum point to Dvaita state we are all in. From an Advaitic standpoint this scum may not have any reality but it sure has the power to veil the Atma. That I call the reality of Dvaita.
Blessings,
etad vai tat
Hari Oṁ
~~~~~
Namaste nirotu,
Recall your question was about the individul, the ātman of the liberated returning to this plane of existence. The śloka-s offered from the Upaniṣads clearly infom us there is no return, hence part one of the initial inquiry has been addressed.
Regarding Knowledge
I see your point and can understand your orientation. Let me see if I can add a few ideas before going deeper. It is not unusual to confuse 'knowledge' with book knowledge (even the vedas!). The knowledge that is captured in the śloka-s offered in my post is jñāna svarūpa - knowledge as essence, pure consciousness, pure Brahman.
Hence mukti = Brahman realization = full knowledge = pure knowledge = jñāna svarūpa.
Pure Consciousness is the essence of all knowledge, therefore it is considered full, complete, without a blemish, stainless. When a person is established in this consciousness it is said full knowledge occurs.
Why so? Because the seer, the object being seen and the method of seeing are all one , together without duality. There is nothing left to inspect as the fullness of the knowledge is experiential as one's own SELF ( not outside of one's experience).
Hence it is called the only complete way to know something in its Fullness ( bhuma); it is beyond book knowledge as you can see. Books are within duality; there is me and the book and oh by the way the method of percieving the book. This is no longer the case when one is established in Brahma Sakshtkara ( Self Realization) some like to call turiyatit chetana (sustained turya).
Happy to go further, yet these principles above are key.
pranams
Last edited by yajvan; 09 August 2008 at 08:06 AM. Reason: added clarity
यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
Member
Namaste Nirotu.
Thank you for appreciating and concurring with my expression of one facet of the Truth.
Yes, I agree that the term 'liberation' has different layers of meanings, one of which is ending the slavery of the soul to a physical body. Interestingly, the term 'liber' refers to a 'book' (its plural is 'libri', hence 'library'). 'Liberal arts' originally meant the subjects in the seven liberal arts of the Middle Ages--'trivium' (grammar, logic, rhetoric) and 'quadrivium' (arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, music). Thus liberation was the venture of making people equal in social status, economy and rights, by exposing them to the knowledge of these subjects.
In Sanatana Dharma, as Yajvan has pointed out very well, the knowledge obtained by a soul is not the 'bookish knowledge' even of the Vedas, but the realization of the Self, the pure knowledge which is the essence of consciousness, and getting established in that Self. This is obviously possible, and the birthright, of every soul (JIva); it is obtained not by looking at with physical eyes and processing the inputs with the mind but by looking in and through the mind with the inner eyes of the Buddhi or wisdom and finding the AtmA or the Self at the core that enlightens everything. To the extent this realization is done, the external, bookish knowledge is easily obtained by just tuning in to the source.
The terms 'Atman', 'AtmA' and 'Brahman' are identical in Hinduism: they all refer to the Absolute Reality which is essentially Universal Consciousness. Individual souls are referred to by the term 'JIva'.
In the Advaidic sense, Brahman stands ever liberated because he is substratum and the world is only a mAyAvic projection over the Reality of Brahman. In the Dvaidic sense, Brahman is never liberated completely, perhaps only briefly after Pralaya, because the cycles of Creation are also eternal.
Your likely belief that the liberated soul (JIva) is never redirected into another material manifested body, advocates the Christian concept of one life, one death and then eternal heaven or hell: Souls that leave the physical body rest in an unknown destination until the Judgment Day; they never reincarnate.
'If reincarnation is true', then the JIva 'must have some relationship that cannot be wished away even after liberation' from physical body, for 'ordinary souls like mine!'
This perception is also based on the unrealistic Christian concept that the soul becomes either irrevocably virtuous or irredeemably sinful at death of the physical body. It cannot be so. A human soul that leaves its physical body is exactly the same as it was at the time of death, in its 'personality', according to the Hindu and Theosophical concept, which is far more realistic.
The human soul is covered by layers and layers of karma and vAsanas of previous births. While the fruits of good karma are experienced in the 'heaven' through the mental body, the 'fruits' of bad karma can be experienced only through a physical body, which is why souls reincarnate.
What about the astral body? Built up of our lower emotions, this is the storehouse of our vAsanas. When the human soul leaves its last physical body, it is aghast at its inability to experience the pent-up emotions, so it roams about the astral world, which for all practical purposes, is the 'hell' it has made for itself!
Because the soul is more desperate to experience its pent-up emotions, Theosophists like Bishop Leadbeater advocate abolition of capital punishment even to hardcore criminals; the legal system, in their opinion must try to 'educate' even such souls and allow them to have their natural death, by which time their emotions might well have run their course.
Upon death of the astral body, the soul gets into its mental body and enjoys the fruits of good karma. When these are finished, the soul has to descend to experience its left over karma and vAsanas. For this purpose, the divine forces (devas, angels) in the divine hierarchy shape up a new astral body and then when the time is come, a new physical body for the soul to experience the karmic balance.
If there is no bad karma left over, there would be no more concomitant physical/astral body, so no further reincarnation.
Member
Namaste Nirotu,
No dear Nirotu, it did not probably just occur to you. You have continued discussion on this aspect, as long as I know you.
As has already been clarified by my esteemed friends, your premises are different. Advaitins do not claim anything that is not there is shastras. It is Gita which says: "Atman Na lipayate". Your basic premise that 'Atma gets liberated ---' is faulty, since Atma never got into such trouble. It is just a conditioned reflection of Atma that plays on.
Since western science and christianity cannot see atma as different from the manifested mind/minds, you have a lot of problem. Hindu scriptures, on the other hand, state: a) Atman is advaita and unchangeable and b)Atman built Purusha from the waters (Aitreya Up). All these that you see, including your own body are objects made up of consciousness and are in Purusha and not in Atman. But when stilled, the mind is one and is able to reflect the identity of divine purusha (the Universe) and the Atman.
How can Atman, which is spiritual and subtle, and is beyond grasping, come in touch with the physical and get mixed up? And if it were to get contaminated, then the dictum of the Upanishad that the 'Atma is unchangeable' would be falsified.
Moreover, if you think that God is different from the advaita atman, then you must also concede that God is without an Atman, which is absurd.
Advaita Atman is God.
Om
Last edited by atanu; 09 August 2008 at 07:44 AM.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Member
Namaste Nirotu.
An Advaitin does not deny the practical reality of Dvaita, however temporal it might be; or else he/she would not be worshipping Brahman in the form of Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesha, Shanmukha, Shakti, Lakshmi, Sarasvati and so on. However, an Advaitin knows that such worship and his/her worldly life based on dharma are only niyamic steps in the inward journey of Self-Realization.
The Reality of Dvaita is the reality of a car perceived differently by different people: to a rider of the car, its reality is a vehicle, plush, cool, and comfortable inside, elegant and pleasing to the senses, specially the visual sense on the outside.
To a driver, the reality of a car comprises its steering wheel, clutch, gears, the dashboard with its light, horn and other controls, the glove compartment, fuel tank, the wiper on the windscreen, the sun-shades and the wheels and tyres.
The mechanic looks at a deeper reality of the car: to him, the brakes are northing more than the pedal, the fluid that transmits the foot pressure on the brake pedal, the lines and leverage and so on. Tyres are just rubber in the form of a tube and an outer coverage filled with air. In his perception, a car is more real in its carburetor and engine.
A mechanical engineer who designs the car and the scientist who is concerned with the laws and principles of physical science to design more efficient and comfortable cars look at still deeper realities of the car.
So what is the ultimate reality of a car? Can every user know about it? Should it be impossible to first know about it and then effectively use the knowledge it in daily life, if a user is really intent on seeking it?
This is the case with every instance of manifestation in Dvaita: layers of superficial, temporal realities that 'veil' the abstract reality underneath. In the Object-Oriented Programming (OOP) of computers, different perceptions of realities are 'abstracted' (selected out), 'packed' into 'classes', and suitably 'exposed' using simulated real world 'objects' for the user that are driven by a deeper layer of programming objects used in the software.
The Advaidic Reality of Absolute Truth of Consciousness is the only Reality that drives all the superficial, temporal, and conditional realities of Dvaita. This Absolute Reality does not just lurk inert inside, but shines and radiates its nature all through with all its power. As it shines, the reflections of its light of knowledge and consciousness in different layers of matter create units of temporarily localized intelligence that we call the individual selves, souls, or JIvas.
Most humans swim and surf and sail on the ocean and think that they know all about the ocean. Small fish stay at the superficial levels of the ocean and think that there is all to it. Whales live in deeper levels and know more about the reality of the ocean. Oysters realize the pearl of the pure reality and preserve it for the world. Beings that live at the floor of the ocean know of nothing more than the bliss and peace, which is the ultimate reality of the ocean.
Member
Namaste Nirotu,
I hope you will be able to accept that this veiling is from you or my mind's standpoint. You or me, do not know Atma's viewpoint since you and me, do not know the atma, which does not care to declare to the universe "Hey folks, see, I am not deluded".Advaita merely points this out.
But, IMO, you put this simple point beneath the carpet again and again, since you have a deeply etched bias. You impose a view point of ignorant mind upon the Atma, and then believe that the imposition has blinded the Atma. It is for the mind to find out, for its own joy, that atma is mind's master, is immortal and is ever free, since it is one and thus without any foe and fear.
Om
Last edited by atanu; 09 August 2008 at 11:08 PM.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks