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Thread: For Shri Yogikriya

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    For Shri Yogikriya

    Dear Atanu,
    Thanks for your many wonderful posts on Lord Shiva / self.
    I really appreciate it. I've followed your posts from debates with hare krsnas on Audarya fellowship site. At that time I was also debating them. I have a few questions for you and will be very happy if you could find some time to answer them.

    Where can I find complete Shiv Gita on the web? I have the Hindu version hard copy.

    I'm debating a fanatical Vishuite who's philosophy is very similar to Hare Krsnas.

    He has quoted Padma purana where Shiva tells parvati that he will come to spread mayavad advaita and false knowledge as Shankaracharya, this refuting Shri Adi Shankaracharya. Do you know about this verse and its answer? Also about the milk-curd verse that Vishnu is milk original source and Shiva is curd.

    The guy also quotes some verses from Rig Vedas announcing Vishnu as Supreme ParaBrahma.

    My Ishta is Shiva, but I believe Vishnu and Shiva are two sides to the same coin and have no problem accepting Vishnu name or Shiva name as supreme. I completely agree with Shiv Gita. But the guy claims writer Suta is inferior to Vyasa who wrote BG so he cancels out Shiv Gita.
    Please help. Thanks and best regards!
    Namah Shivaya.
    Yogkriya

    These are the quotes he mentions from the scriptures:

    "Rig Veda (1.22.20) states, "All the suras i.e., the devas, including mahadeva, look always toward the feet of Lord Vishnu."

    Rig Veda (V.I.15b.3), on the importance of chanting Vishnu's name, "O ye who wish to gain realization of the Supreme Truth, utter the name of Vishnu at least once in the steadfast faith that it will lead you to such realization."

    Katha Upanishad, also describes Vishnu as Highest -
    "He who has no understanding, who is unmindful and always impure, never reaches that place, but enters into the round of births. But he who has understanding, who is mindful and always pure, reaches indeed that place, from whence he is not born again. But he who has understanding for his charioteer (intellect), and who holds the reins of the mind, he reaches the end of his journey, and that is the highest place of Vishnu".

    Brahma Samhita says Vishnu is milk and Shiva is curd.

    Purusha Sukta of Taittiriya Aranyaka (3.13.2) also refers to Master of all Vishnu as Purusha, the Supreme God and originator of all devas including mahadeva.

    Visvakarma Sukta of Rig Veda (10.82) refers to Vishnu as the Supreme God.

    Aitareya Brahmana: 1:1:1 mentions Vishnu as the Supreme God.

    Vishnu is the Oldest Being, in the Chamakam, the last lines in the famous Saivite Vedic hymn, Shri Rudram.

    Now tell me, does your Shiva Gita (whoever wrote it) override Rig Veda and all other Vedic texts mentioned above? "
    Namaste Yogikriya,

    I will try to address your letter openly. Hope you do not take offence. Yet, my sincere request is to just come away from that discussion and let the ego win there and let you win here -- in silent understanding. It is ego that fights ego and in such fights there is no truth.

    Where can I find complete Shiv Gita on the web? I have the Hindu version hard copy.
    To me, the existence itself is shiva gita -- it is experiential. But I think a readable version can be found at 'Celextel's Online Spiritual Library'.

    He has quoted Padma purana where Shiva tells parvati that he will come to spread mayavad advaita and false knowledge as Shankaracharya, this refuting Shri Adi Shankaracharya. Do you know about this verse and its answer? Also about the milk-curd verse that Vishnu is milk original source and Shiva is curd.
    Padma Purana does not talk about Sankaracharya at all. Please do not be bothered about answering such dubious claims.

    These are the quotes he mentions from the scriptures:

    "Rig Veda (1.22.20) states, "All the suras i.e., the devas, including mahadeva, look always toward the feet of Lord Vishnu."
    The following is the actual verse, which does not mention any Mahadeva looking up to the Supreme station -- the Sun.
    RV 1.022.20 The wise ever contemplate that supreme station of Vis.n.u, as the eye ranges over the sky. [ paramam padam = supreme degree or station, svarga].

    In fact, Mahadeva is the originator of the Sun, as below:
    Yajur Veda ii. 2. 10.
    Yonder sun did not shine, the gods sought atonement for him, and for him they offered this oblation to Soma and Rudra: verily thereby they bestowed brightness upon him.
    Mahesvara is Param Parastaad, beyond the categories of comparable things.
    Svet. Upanishad
    6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n
    ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .
    patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-
    vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..
    6.7 We will know this mightiest one who is far above all the mighty – this summit of the gods and their godhead, king of kings and lord of lords, who towereth high above all summit and greatnesses. Let us learn of God for he is this universes' master and all shall adore him.
    Please tell your friend that by subjecting God to comparison, he is being ignorant.

    Rig Veda (V.I.15b.3), on the importance of chanting Vishnu's name, "O ye who wish to gain realization of the Supreme Truth, utter the name of Vishnu at least once in the steadfast faith that it will lead you to such realization."


    Though no one denies the efficacy of chanting Vishnu's name, I do not know any verse as Rig Veda (V.I.15b.3). Rig Veda (V.I.15.3) is as below:

    1.015.03 Nes.t.a_ (= Tvas.t.a_), with your spouse, commend our sacrifice to the gods; drink with R.tu, for you are possessed of riches
    Katha Upanishad, also describes Vishnu as Highest -
    "He who has no understanding, who is unmindful and always impure, never reaches that place, but enters into the round of births. But he who has understanding, who is mindful and always pure, reaches indeed that place, from whence he is not born again. But he who has understanding for his charioteer (intellect), and who holds the reins of the mind, he reaches the end of his journey, and that is the highest place of Vishnu".
    Yes. There is no problem here. Highest place of Vishnu is Mahesvara. Visnu- the divine purusha, the truth underlying the Universe, is unborn Mahesvara.

    Brahma Samhita says Vishnu is milk and Shiva is curd.



    This is not shruti. And Vaisnavas have not understood the so-called samhita. As Brahma Samhita also says that Shaktiman Purusha Shambu is controller of Vishnu's cognition -- The Devi.
    SRI BRAHMA SAMHITA Book 1 TEXT 8.
    niyatih sa rama devi
    tat-priya tad-vasam tada
    tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur
    jyoti-rupah sanatanah
    ya yonih sapara saktih
    kamo bijam mahad hareh
    Devi is the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition of Hari – Mahat. And She, the Sakti – the regulator (Niyati) is under the control of lingam rupi eternal Bhagwan Shambhu. She is the potency of mahat Hareh.
    Mahat is the Universal Mind, which has its power in Devi, controlled by Sanatana Bhagawan Shambhu.

    Purusha Sukta of Taittiriya Aranyaka (3.13.2) also refers to Master of all Vishnu as Purusha, the Supreme God and originator of all devas including mahadeva.


    Purusha Sukta says nothing of the sort. Purusha sukta does not mention Mahadeva at all. It does say that Purusha gives rise to Viraj and Viraj to Purusha.

    Visvakarma Sukta of Rig Veda (10.82) refers to Vishnu as the Supreme God.



    Visvakarma sukta, also known as Hiranyagarbha Sukta, sings about the glory of Hiranyagarbha, the embryo sitting on the navel of the unborn Aja -- who is ekapada Rudra. And we know the source of Hiraynagarbha. Below is the relevant portions of the sukta.
    10.082.01 The maker of the senses, resolute in mind, engendered the water, (and then) these two (heaven and earth) floating (on the waters); when those ancient boundaries were fixed, then the heaven and earth were expanded
    10.082.02 Vis'vakarman, of comprehensive mind and manifold greatness, is all-pervading, the creator, the arranger and the supreme supervisor; him in whom the desires of their (senses) are satisfied with food, they call (him) supreme beyond the seven r.s.is
    10.082.03 He who is our preserver, our parent, the creator (of all), who knows our abodes (and knows) all beings, who is the name-giver of the gods-- he is one; other beings come to him to inquire.
    10.082.06 The waters verily first retained the embryo in which all the gods were aggregated, single deposited on the navel of the unborn (creator), in which all beings abide.
    10.082.07 You know not him who has generated these (beings); (his life) is another, different from yours; wrapped in fog, and foolish speech (do they) wander (who are) gluttonous and engaged in devotion.
    That refers to Visvakarama/Paramatma/Hirayanagarbha Sukta. But Rudra is father to Hiryanagarbha and all devas:
    Mahanarayana Upanishad
    yo devaanaaM prathamaM purastaadvishvaadhiko rudro maharshhiH .
    hiraNyagarbhaM pashyata jaayamaana{\m+} sa no devaH
    shubhayaasmR^ityaa sa.nyunaktu .. 12.
    The similar teaching is there in Svet. Upanishad, so I am not repeating that.

    Aitareya Brahmana: 1:1:1 mentions Vishnu as the Supreme God.

    Let him quote the exact verse. Aitareya Brahmana: 1:1:1 mentions Atma and not Vishnu. Mandukya mentions Atma as Shiva Advaita.

    Actually Vishnu is Yajna, which is the Mahat, the primeval mind, which is not different from Advaita Shiva Atma, but which to the subjective mind appears to be an individual. An ignorant jiva with a notion of individuality can only imagine God as another great individual. Sashtras do not support this.Regarding, Rudram, remind your vaisnava friend that it is vedic and not just saiva scripture. Then let him read the following and know that rudraya is vishnave:
    Shree Rudram
    oM namo bhagavate rudrAya vishhNave mR^ityurme pAhi |
    prANAnAM granthirasi rudro mA vishAntakaH |
    tenAnnenApyAyasva |
    namo rudraaya vishhNave mR^ityurme pAhi
    agnaavishhNuu sajoshhasemaa vardhantu vaaM giraH |
    dyumnairvaajebhiraagatam

    And regarding : "Can we dispute anywhere in the scripture on whether Vishnu is not the supreme soul?", Rig Veda says this.
    RV Book 9 HYMN XCVI. Soma Pavamana
    5 Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward the Father of the earth, Father of heaven: Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu.
    IMO, Param Atma has no progenitor and no birth. And regarding the reverse aspect, Satapatha Brahmana says the following:
    Satapatha Brahmana, THE PRAVARGYA.
    14:1:1:1. The gods Agni, Indra, Soma, Makha, Vishnu, and the Visve Devâh, except the two Asvins, performed a sacrificial session.
    14:1:1:2. Their place of divine worship was Kurukshetra.. Therefore people say that Kurukshetra is the gods’ place of divine worship: hence wherever in Kurukshetra one settles there one thinks, 'This is a place for divine worship;' for it was the gods’ place of divine worship.
    14:1:1:3. They entered upon the session thinking, 'May we attain excellence! may we become glorious! may we become eaters of food!' And in like manner do these (men) now enter upon the sacrificial session thinking, 'May we attain excellence! may we become glorious! may we become eaters of food!'
    14:1:1:4. They spake, 'Whoever of us, through austerity, fervour, faith, sacrifice, and oblations, shall first compass the end of the sacrifice, he shall be the most excellent of us, and shall then be in common to us all.' 'So be it,' they said.
    14:1:1:5. Vishnu first attained it, and he became the most excellent of the gods; whence people say, 'Vishnu is the most excellent of the gods.'
    14:1:1:6. Now he who is this Vishnu is the sacrifice; and he who is this sacrifice is yonder Âditya (the sun). But, indeed, Vishnu was unable to control that (love of) glory of his; and so even now not every one can control that (love of) glory of his.
    14:1:1:7. Taking his bow, together with three arrows, he stepped forth. He stood, resting his head on the end of the bow. Not daring to attack him, the gods sat themselves down all around him.
    14:1:1:8. Then the ants said--these ants (vamr&#238, doubtless, were that (kind called) 'upadîkâ '--'What would ye give to him who should gnaw the bowstring?'--'We would give him the (constant) enjoyment of food, and he would find water even in the desert: so we would give him every enjoyment of food.'--'So be it,' they said.
    14:1:1:9. Having gone nigh unto him, they gnawed his bowstring. When it was cut, the ends of the bow, springing asunder, cut off Vishnu's head.
    14:1:1:100. It fell with (the sound) 'ghriṅ'; and on falling it became yonder sun. And the rest (of the body) lay stretched out (with the top part) towards the east. And inasmuch as it fell with (the sound) 'ghriṅ,' therefrom the Gharma (was called); and inasmuch as he was stretched out (pra-vrig,), therefrom the Pravargya (took its name).
    14:1:1:11. The gods spake, 'Verily, our great hero (mahân virah) has fallen:' therefrom the Mahâvîra pot (was named). And the vital sap which flowed from him they wiped up (sam-mrig) with their hands, whence the Samrâg.

    Bhagavatam, the highest theistic scripture, so dear to vaisnav friends, does declare the following:
    Bhagavatam (in Churning of the Ocean Chapter).
    23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.
    24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.
    31. O Lord Girisa, since your Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.
    ------------------------------
    Hope these help you to be rest assured in yourself and not to lose valuable time in pointless debates.

    Shiva is the Good one - the Advaita Atma. Vishnu is all pervading, which can be true only from the perspective of the All. Whereas God is EKO, who fundamentally is not 'all pervader' -- what else He will pervade? But, if a Vaisnava has assgined the meaning of Shiva to Vishnu in his mental picture, then why should you argue with him or why should he argue with you? As such Bhagavatam also says that even Vishnu is unable to comprehend, so who are we?

    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 09 August 2008 at 10:36 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: For Shri Yogikriya

    Namaste Atanu,

    This is a wonderful post ! Thank you !!

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: For Shri Yogikriya

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Atanu,

    This is a wonderful post ! Thank you !!

    OM
    Namaste Devotee,

    I was actually fearful that I might have annoyed some and especially you. I perceived your absence as an indication and meant to write you a pm. Then I imagined that God would sort out everything. I thank you and I bow down to Vishnu, outside whom there is none.

    My mother has been Vaisnava all her life and thus I have special love for all Vishnu Lakshmi lovers. Yet, it is given to me that the ultimate truth is unnameble, unspeakable, and unthinkable. Scriptures defintely say so. That EKO is pure Good, being all pervasive. And that all pervasive being is the GOOD ONE, since He is EKO.

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: For Shri Yogikriya

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    I was actually fearful that I might have annoyed some and especially you. I perceived your absence as an indication and meant to write you a pm. Then I imagined that God would sort out everything. I thank you and I bow down to Vishnu, outside whom there is none.
    Namaste Atanu,

    Thanks for your concern, Atanu ! It just shows your greatness & divine love & wisdom you are blessed with. I never had any doubts over your conviction in Non-duality/Advait. In fact, it has been a pleasure & it has been really rewarding reading your posts on this forum. It is true that I have not been very active here for last a few days but that is due to my new assignment which doesn't leave much time for reflecting on the views expressed here but I am a regular visitor on this forum nonetheless.

    As you must have noticed, I love Lord Krishna & my beliefs are firmly rooted in Advait. The forms & names we love depends upon our nature ... this difference is non-existent in EKO, the ONE without a second. He is Lord Krishna, Lord Shiva & everything What Is ... where can there be any difference ?

    I believe your above post will light the paths of those who are seeking help under the delusion of Maya & seeing differences where none exists.

    My mother has been Vaisnava all her life and thus I have special love for all Vishnu Lakshmi lovers. Yet, it is given to me that the ultimate truth is unnameble, unspeakable, and unthinkable. Scriptures defintely say so. That EKO is pure Good, being all pervasive. And that all pervasive being is the GOOD ONE, since He is EKO.
    Perfectly True ! Let that ONE show the correct path to all of us !

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #5

    Re: For Shri Yogikriya

    Dear Atanu,

    I have always cherished your posts in regards to Lord Shiva and Vedanta. As I remember, I've known your posts from the time I was debating Gaudiyas on the Audarya forum which was too biased.
    Gladly, I was directed to Hindudharma forum, which proved to be fair and just without any double standards as do the Gaudiyas unfortunately.

    As such it takes lots of time to read and grasp the scriptures. Your explanations are always very much appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions openly. I'm sure these are not just my questions or rather questions that were put to me, but many other sincere Shaiv devotees who also face such misinterpretations by pseudo-vaishnavas.
    Living out of India for almost 15 years, the only temple that was readily available was Iskcon and Gaudiya math. And the propaganda was pretty much vivid. But I could never agree with Prabhupada on everything. Too much politics, hypocrisy and double standards in policies and theories.

    As such through the years, I've dragged myself away from such discussions as all they do is instill Krishna dvesha, as once you had mentioned too.
    People fail to accept that Vishmu and Shiva can be two faces to the same coin?!
    Sadashiva creates as Brahma, sustains as Vishnu and annihilates as Shiva/rudra.
    Please keep on posting your wonderful posts on this thread as on others.
    Namah Shivaya!
    Kind regards,
    Yogkriya.

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    Re: For Shri Yogikriya

    Well said Atanu.

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    Re: For Shri Yogikriya

    Just for everyone's information here, wanted to post this message.

    Well, Atanu ahs beautifully clarified most of the queries, except the Shiva Gita one.

    Yes, Shiva Gita is available online with all chapters + translation. Here is the link:

    http://mahapashupatastra.blogspot.co...l/Shiva%20Gita

    And @Atanu,

    There is no other god by name "EKO". That's a way to address Shiva only. it's ONLY lord Shiva who is the "EKO", "EKA" since he is a LONER (He alone exists all others are just his projections).


    below are the clear cut verses from Atharvasiras upanishad which clearly states that lord shiva is called as "EKA".
    atha kasmAduchyate ekaH yaH sarvAnprANAnsaMbhakShya
    saMbhakShaNenAjaH sa.nsR^ijati visR^ijati
    He is called “Eka (single)” because he singly destroys everything and recreates everything.

    sAka.n sa eko bhUtashcharati prajAnA.n tasmAduchyata ekaH .
    He is “Eka (loner)” because he creates all beings and travels within them alone without any one realizing where he comes from and where he goes.

    Hope this information is useful.

    Thanks & regards,
    Trimata Putra

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