Very well. But has Krsna said that mahesvara is a demi god?Originally Posted by Atman
Member
Very well. But has Krsna said that mahesvara is a demi god?
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Yog Kriya
Namaskar Atanu ji and other spiritual brothers!
That's the whole point. 'Demi' God thing is lavishly quoted by gaudiya vaishnavs/Iskconites, and then fingers are pointed towards Lord Shiva as a demi god and interpreted that Krishna asked not to worship Shiva.
But they ignore Lord Krishna's very own words. Krishna speaks volumes on Lord Shiva, but all that is conveniently ignored. Krishna doesn't say Shiva is a mere demi/semi God...!
Kindly notice from the Bhagwad Gita (As it was) -
upadrastanumanta ca
bharta bhokta mahesvarah
paramatmeti capy ukto
dehe 'smin purusah parah (Bhagavad Gita 13:23)
"Yet in this body there is another, a transcendental enjoyer who is MAHESHWARA, the supreme proprietor, who exists as the overseer and permitter, and who is known as Paramatma,the Supreme soul of universe".
Another thing that I would like to bring to notice of Iskcon/Gaudiyas is that since Lord Krishna said that people of lower intelligence worship "demi" Gods, then it should be true. Now Lord Shiva is somehow misinterpreted as a "demi" God by Gaudiyas as per their God positioning hierarchal system. .. and Krishna himself worshiped Shiva and worshiped Shiva as Ram too before that. And so does he receives the instruction of Shiva Gita from Lord Shiva as Ram. So did worship Kunti, Gandharai great sages as Shri Vashishtha (kul Guru of Lord Ram), and almost all the Vedic sages - Lord Shiva. Were they all people of "lower intelligence"?? Was Krishna himself of lower intelligence as he was worshipping Lord Shiva in the ashram of Rishi Upamanyu? Was he of lower intelligence as he requested Rishi upmanyu of Pashupat Diksha? Was Lord Ram of lower intelligence as he asks the great sage Agastya of Virja and Pashupat dikshas?? The answer is clear isn't it?! Shiva is not a "demi" God.
Not a deva, but Mahadeva. Not just Ishwara, but Maheswara. Not just kaal, but Mahakaal.
HariHaraya Namaha!
YogKriya.
New Member
Lord Shiva is also known as an Urdhaverata- one who has complete sublimation of semen, but as the spiritual world is even beyond, it would be safe to assume they have also conquered kamadeva.
Yog Kriya
Urdhvareta is one who's directed his energies, consciousness upwards. It may not necessarily refer to semen. Urdhvareti kriya also is a yogic technique that helps achieve the same. But yes it also moves the semen and directs it upwards. Shiva burnt Kamdev to ashes. Rati prays to Shiva to grant back her husband now burnt to ashes. Lord Shiva promises that Kamdev will be born again after many yugas.
Later as Krishna worships Shiva to have a son as valorous as He, Shiva blesses him with a son who is none other than Kamdev himself.
Even for a yogi who has attained sehestrar bhedan siddhi and attained Nirvikalpa samadhi is in bliss all the time and it is not possible for him to fall to petty carnal pleasures as he is already enjoying a much much higher pleasure that is beyond description to ordinary man.
It amazes me when some people talk loosely about Lord Shiva being able to overcome kama somehow, clearly hold no understanding of what a yogi's consciousness is who has parsed the veil of Maya and gone beyond and is situated in divine consciousness in constant samadhi. This is Krishna Consciousness, this is Shiva consciousness, this is divine consciousness. Love, peace and bliss in divine communion.
Hari Om.
Namah Shivaya!
Sarva Shiva mayam!
Regards,
Yogkriya.
Member
From Shanti Parva of Mahabharata.
Shri Krishna Sarvesvara says:
ahamAtmA hi lokAnAM vishvAnAM pANDunandana
tasmAdAtmAnamevAgre rudraM sampUjayAmyaham
yadyahaM nArchayeyaM vai IshAnaM varadaM shivam
AtmAnaM nArchayetkashchiditi me bhAvitaM manaH
O Son of Pandu, I am, indeed, the Atma, the indweller of this universe and the worlds. Therefore, I worship Rudra first as my own Self. If I did not worship Rudra, the indwelling Lord, the bestower of boons shivam, first in such a way, some would not worship me, at all - this is my opinion.
-------
yastaM vetti sa mAM vetti yo.anu taM sa hi mAm anu
rudro nArAyaNashchaiva sattvamekaM dvidhAkR^itam
loke charati kaunteya vyakti sthaM sarvakarmasu
Whoever knows him, knows me. Whoever follows him, follows me. (Though) the world, in all its actions, worships two Gods Rudra and Narayana, it is actually One only who is worshipped.
Om
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Member
Namaste All,
I thought that the above citation will not be complete without also citing the following concoction of an ISKCON/Gaudiya guru:
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur (in his book Lord Shiva: The greatest vaisnava).In the Siddhanta-ratnam, third pada, texts 22, 23, 26 and 27, it is stated: “By displaying the pastime of worshiping His own form as Rudra, Lord Vishnu taught the worship of Rudra not to His own sincere devotees but to the insincere living entities who desire religiosity, economic development, sense gratification, and liberation. The Lord Himself has confirmed this fact when He spoke in the Narayaniya to Arjuna as follows: ‘O Arjuna, I am the soul of the universe. My worship of Rudra is worship of My own self. Whatever I do, common people follow. Examples set by Me should be followed. That is why I worship Rudra. Vishnu does not offer obeisances to any demigod. I worship Rudra, considering him to be My own self. I am the indwelling supersoul of the entire universe. Rudra is My own part, just as a hot iron rod is non-different from fire. I have set the standard that the demigods headed by Rudra should be worshiped. If I did not set the example of worshiping Rudra then people would not follow that standard. Therefore I teach the worship of My servants through My personal behavior. There is no one greater than or equal to Me. Therefore, since I am the greatest, I do not worship anyone. But since Rudra is My part I display the example of worshiping Rudra and other demigods to teach ordinary people.-------------------------------What kind of mind can derive such a convoluted interpretation from the very precise verses of Mahabharata, attributed to Shri Krishna? The sadhu (?) writer ignores tasmAdAtmAnamevAgre rudraM sampUjayAmyaham ( I worship Rudra first as my own Self). He also ignores yastaM vetti sa mAM vetti yo.anu taM sa hi mAm anu (Whoever knows him, knows me. Whoever follows him, follows me). How do we compare this saying of Shri Krishna with the following concoction of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur ?-----Lord Vishnu taught the worship of Rudra not to His own sincere devotees but to the insincere living entities who desire religiosity, economic development, sense gratification, and liberation. -------------
Om
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Hare Krishna,
I certainly did not want to take part in this discussion but since atanuji mentioned the name of Srila BhaktiSiddhanta Saraswati Maharaj in a disrespectful way, I am submiting this post.
First and foremost, if you don't understand or agree with the teachings of a Gaudiya Vaishnava Acharya, that's your choice, but there is no need to blasphem the Saint. I am sure everyone will agree with this. By Blaspheming a great saint, no one can go anywhere but in the negative direction. If you don't agree, you could simply say "no, I don't agree with this" and my point of view is this "and state whatever you have to say" and any reader will make his/her own judgement. That's civil.
Srila BhaktiSiddhanta Saraswati Thakur Maharaj is a great saint in the parampara of Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Sampradaya. Teachings by His Divine Grace are based on the authorative scriptures and teachings of the previous saints in the Sampradaya.
All bonafide Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya devotees hold Lord Shiva in greatest of greatest respect. Lord Shiva is the Highest Vaishnava and Lord Shiva is given that respect, admiration and love as such.
Lord Shiva is not "a" devata, Lord Shiva is "the" "Maha"devata. There are 33 crore (330 million) devatas including Lord Brahma, but they are of Jiva Tattva. Lord Shiva is of Shiva Tattva. Shiva Tattava's position is always higher. Lord Krishna and all the Purush Avatars (Lord Narasimha, Lord Rama etc.) are Vishnu Tattva which is the Supreme Lord of entire cosmic manifestation.
As everybody knows, Lord Shiva drank all the poison that came out of Samudra Manthan (Churning of Ocean). Lord Shiva is Guna Avatar, special expansion, of Lord Mahavishnu Himself. To take the charge of Tamo Guna, the Supreme Lord Sri Hari, expands into Lord Shiva, however Lord Shiva is not in Tamo Guna, but He is in-charge of Tamoguna. Lord Brahma is in-charge of Rajo Guna and Lord Vishnu is in-charge of Sattva Guna.
Lord Shiva's position in Spiritual World is known an Lord SadaShiva of which Lord Shiva is manifestation in the material world.
About Lord Shiva According to Brahma Samhita (spoken by Lord Brahma):
--------- Brahma Samhita verses, translation and purports included --------
5.45
ksīram yathā dadhi vikāra-viśesa-yogāt
sañjāyate na hi tataḥ pṛthag asti hetoh
yah śambhutām api tathā samupaiti kāryād
govindam ādi-purusam tam aham bhajāmi
Translation:
Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Śambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.
Further explanation of the verse:
(The real nature of Śambhu, the presiding deity of Maheśa-dhāma, is described.) Śambhu is not a second Godhead other than Kṛṣṇa. Those, who entertain such discriminating sentiment, commit a great offense against the Supreme Lord. The supremacy of Śambhu is subservient to that of Govinda; hence they are not really different from each other. The nondistinction is established by the fact that just as milk treated with acid turns into curd so Godhead becomes a subservient when He Himself attains a distinct personality by the addition of a particular element of adulteration. This personality has no independent initiative. The said adulterating principle is constituted of a combination of the stupefying quality of the deluding energy, the quality of nonplenitude of the marginal potency and a slight degree of the ecstatic-cum-cognitive principle of the plenary spiritual potency. This specifically adulterated reflection of the principle of the subjective portion of the Divinity is Sadāśiva, in the form of the effulgent masculine-symbol-god Śambhu from whom Rudradeva is manifested. In the work of mundane creation as the material cause, in the work of preservation by the destruction of sundry asuras and in the work of destruction to conduct the whole operation, Govinda manifests Himself as guṇa-avatāra in the form of Śambhu who is the separated portion of Govinda imbued with the principle of His subjective plenary portion. The personality of the destructive principle in the form of time has been identified with that of Śambhu by scriptural evidences that have been adduced in the commentary. The purport of the Bhāgavata ślokas, viz., vaiṣṇavānāḿ yathā śambhuḥ, etc., is that Śambhu, in pursuance of the will of Govinda, works in union with his consort Durgādevī by his own time energy. He teaches pious duties (dharma) as stepping-stones to the attainment of spiritual service in the various tantra-śāstras, etc., suitable for jīvas in different grades of the conditional existence. In obedience to the will of Govinda, Śambhu maintains and fosters the religion of pure devotion by preaching the cult of illusionism (Māyāvāda) and the speculative āgama-śāstras. The fifty attributes of individual souls are manifest in a far vaster measure in Śambhu and five additional attributes not attainable by jīvas are also partly found in him. So Śambhu cannot be called a jīva. He is the lord of jīva but yet partakes of the nature of a separated portion of Govinda.
Who is Lord Krishna?
Brahma Samhita 5.39
rāmādi-mūrtisu kalā-niyamena tisthan
nānāvatāram akarod bhuvanesu kintu
krsnah svayam samabhavat paramah pumān yo
govindam ādi-purusam tam aham bhajāmi
Translation:
I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who manifested Himself personally as Kṛṣṇa and the different avatāras in the world in the forms of Rāma, Nṛsiḿha, Vāmana, etc., as His subjective portions.
Brahma Samhita 5.1
īśvarah paramah krsnah
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahah
anādir ādir govindah
sarva-kārana-kāranam
Krsna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.
Further explanation of the verse:
Krsna is the exalted Supreme entity having His eternal name, eternal form, eternal attribution and eternal pastimes. The very name "Kṛṣṇa" implies His love-attracting designation, expressing by His eternal nomenclature the acme of entity. His eternal beautiful heavenly blue-tinged body glowing with the intensity of ever-existing knowledge has a flute in both His hands. As His inconceivable spiritual energy is all-extending, still He maintains His all-charming medium size by His qualifying spiritual instrumentals. His all-accommodating supreme subjectivity is nicely manifested in His eternal form. The concentrated all-time presence, uncovered knowledge and inebriating felicity have their beauty in Him. The mundane manifestive portion of His own Self is known as all-pervading Paramātmā, Īśvara (Superior Lord) or Viṣṇu (All-fostering). Hence it is evident that Kṛṣṇa is sole Supreme Godhead. His unrivaled or unique spiritual body of superexcellent charm is eternally unveiled with innumerable spiritual instrumentals (senses) and unreckonable attributes keeping their signifying location properly, adjusting at the same time by His inconceivable conciliative powers. This beautiful spiritual figure is identical with Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual entity of Kṛṣṇa is identical with His own figure.
The very intensely blended entity of eternal presence of felicitous cognition is the charming targeted holding or transcendental icon. It follows that the conception of the indistinguishable formless magnitude (Brahman) which is an indolent, lax, presentment of cognitive bliss, is merely a penumbra of intensely blended glow of the three concomitants, viz., the blissful, the substantive and the cognitive. This transcendental manifestive icon Kṛṣṇa in His original face is primordial background of magnitudinal infinite Brahman and of the all-pervasive oversoul. Kṛṣṇa as truly visioned in His variegated pastimes, such as owner of transcendental cows, chief of cowherds, consort of milk-maids, ruler of the terrestrial abode Gokula and object of worship by transcendental residents of Goloka beauties, is Govinda. He is the root cause of all causes who are the predominating and predominated agents of the universe. The glance of His projected fractional portion in the sacred originating water viz., the personal oversoul or Paramātmā, gives rise to a secondary potency — nature who creates this mundane universe. This oversoul's intermediate energy brings forth the individual souls analogously to the emanated rays of the sun.
That is why Sri Sankaracharya at the end of his preaching activity said Bhaja Govindam, Bhaja Govindam. Sri Sankaracharya is none other than Lord Shiva Himself. On the order of Lord Vishnu, Lord Shiva in the form of Sri Sankaracharya preached the philosopy of monism but at the end of his preaching, Sri Sankaracharya asked to worship Govinda.
-------- end of included text --------
Again, you may disagree but please do not call names to the teachings of Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Thakur, a great Vaishnava. No need for commiting unnecessary offense.
Last edited by santosh; 20 January 2009 at 08:34 PM.
Member
Namaste Santosh,
If free enquiry is profanity then and then only you are correct. On the other hand, profanity against Shiva is real profanity because Vedas prescribe Rudra worship. Brahma samhita that you quote again and again is not samhita and is not Shruti. Moreover, you also do not understand Brahma Samhita, wherein Lingarupi Sambhu is described as controller of Niyati, who is Shakti of Mahat Hare.
Know that Shri Krishna Sarvesvara is Prajna Ghana, universal Soul, whose Atma is Shivam -- Advaita Atma. Shri Krishna says: Those who know me as mahesvara know me. In verse from Mahabharata, cited above, He indeed says that one who worships Shiva worships Me. One who follows Shiva follows Me. There is no doubt in me and many of us here that the Visva Atma is not different from Advaita Atman. And Self Realised sages teach that the Visva is from the Advaita Atman.
There is no profanity against anyone. We are however free to check up all statements of those gurus who try to demean Rudra -- The Ishwara of Veda.
Regards
Om
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Member
Brahma Samhita 5.1
īśvarah paramah krsnah
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahah
anādir ādir govindah
sarva-kārana-kāranam
Yes. Veda names Rudra as Isha. Iswara Shiva alone is krsnah -- Sad-Chid-Ananda Vigraha (i.e. individual form or shape , form , figure , the body ). The above verse means this. That however, does not mean that Sad-Chid-Ananda has been replaced by the Vigraha. Where is doubt and where is any problem? In fact Shri Krishna teaches that one who worships Shiva -- the indwelling atma worships Krishna (visva atman) also.
krsnah sarvesvara is prajna ghana -- the all attractive shushupti, the revealed consciousness of advaita atma shivo, who is always the revealer. But be careful. The revealer and the revealed are not two separate beings, but it is most important to attain the revealer through the revealed.
Om Namah Shivaya
Last edited by atanu; 21 January 2009 at 02:27 AM. Reason: it is most important to attain the revealer through the revealed
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Member
Namaste Santosh,
SambhUtAm means that which is created; produced; one in whom anything has arisen. sambhutAM is to undergo union with the five elements. The above word has been used in Upanishads to indicate birth of pancha bhutas from Vishnu or Vishnu associated with panchbhutas.
Whereas the primary meaning of sambhu is parent/progenitor and it is Noun for a facet of Lord Shiva.
What the verse above says is that the created things are different from the creator; like a wave is different from the ocean. To read sambhutAm as Sambhu is not without a motivation and is open to examination. I urge you also to ponder and examine and not be attached blindly to a school. You must understand that for a Shiva lover, Vishnu is none other than Shiva. So, shed away your defensive thought process and critically examine the purports -- you will find mala in those purports.
Best Wishes
Om
Last edited by atanu; 21 January 2009 at 05:55 AM.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
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