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Thread: Revisitng Turīya

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    Revisitng Turīya

    Hari Oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namaste

    This post is for the contribution to the pramātaī ¹ and to offer some thoughts that leads one to pramātaṛ ¹ .

    I thought to address the subject matter of turīya ( the 4th) and perhaps offer a better basedline on this subject. I ask others that wish to contribute , both by their studies, ideas and if possible actual personal experiences to please contribute to this post.

    I hope we can cover
    • Turīya and some definitions
    • Awareness or consciousness and its various states
    • A more refined look at these states of consciousness
    • How yoga and practice experience these states
    • Any personal exeriences people wish to contribute
    • Various techniques
    • Why is turīya even worth pursuing?
    • References to āgamas and śastra-s for support and insight
    • Questions and insightful responses with minimum jalpa (disputes)
    Introduction
    When one talks of spiritual insights, the Divine, or one's advancement in sādhana the conversation crosses the path to turīya. Even if a person is not on any spiritual path, this turīya is at the foundation of consciousness and knowing about it is worthy of one's time and brings merit.

    Here on HDF we have addressed this subject many times over the last several years and I believe many have advanced their knowledge on this subject. For those that have interest in these past conversations, I will list them out in the footnotes below.

    None of my posts will be exhaustively long as I have learned long posts, overall, are unattractive - so I will comply with that observation. I also will ask for those that contribute ( and I hope it is many from all experiences) limit, to eliminate cut 'n pastes from Web sites that just fill up space. . That is, if you care to insert information do so, but then we ask that you narrate or editorialize the material you offer so we , the reader, does not have to discern what the conclusions or inferences of the article you wish to offer that supports your position or claim.

    My position upfront
    In yoga there is the intent of going somewhere, to union. This slight intent, this impulse as my teacher would say is something I practice daily. I am on the path. As Svāmi Laksmanjoo has said if you are practicing yoga, then you have not arrived. That is, there is you and your sādhana, and this brings you (daily) to turīya but it has not deposited you into turīyātīta.
    So from my practices I have been fortunate to experience this turīya. Yet Svāmi-ji informs us that there are two names turīya and turīyātīta, and with that a different experience occurs; we will see these differences within the various posts and by definition below.

    I also take no recognition or claim special knowledge or position other then my personal experience and my studies. This knowledge is from those wiser then me. I have had various guru's and teachers - for this I am fortunate to receive their knowledge, wisdom, and initiation ( dīkṣā & śaktipāta&#185 they so graciously offered and passed on to me over the years.

    Yet my studies & sādhana continue daily. The blessings I have received from the pundits, muni's, and sages I read allows me to 'connect the dots' more and more. To see how this wisdom is so profound, and how it connects to my direct personal experiences found in meditation and saṁyama.
    I never new a time in my life when I was not looking for the Divine, for this I am blessed. If one word helps another aspirant, that can only done by His Hand. With that, lets begin.

    Caitanya or Consciousness
    We all experience consciousness and use it daily. Yet it seems a bit foreign to us. It is better grasped when it is called awareness. Being aware of working or becoming aware of a sound, an auto that is crossing your path, or even becoming aware that you are now hungry. This is the notion of consciousness.

    We tend to be aware of 3 states of consciousness: Waking, Dreaming and Deep Sleep. Three fundamental states that we cycle through day-in-and-day-out. In later posts we can gain a finer resolution of these 3 states if we wish, but from a building-block perspective these 3 states will allow us to better understand the position turīya.

    We have 3 states of consciousness we all participate in. Some would argue that we do not experience deep sleep as it’s the absence of experience at that time, yet we wake up and say ' ghee I slept well ' and your friend may say 'Why so?' and you might say ' I do not remember anything! ', as one of the examples of a most restful sleep. Some people say I was out like a light ( hopefully they mean a light that is switched to OFF )

    Let's start with a very fundamental definition of turīya ( some write turya). This means the 4th. But why call it turīya, the 4th? Very simple explanation. It is the next state of consciousness that is in line with the other 3 states mentioned.
    That is:
    1. jāgrat जाग्रत्- waking
    2. svapna ( some write svapana) स्वपन - dreaming; now this dream can come during sleep or even during the day
    3. suṣupti - सुषुप्ति - is deep sleep; some call complete unconsciousness; this is no bodily awareness or external awareness at this time.
    4. turya तुर्य- the forth or forming the 4th part; yet there are no 'parts' other then turya being 4th in line of wake , dream and sleep or turīya तुरीय a 4th or 4th part

    We call it the 4th , as it is next in line; We will get a little more robust as future posts continue i.e. other names and conditions, etc.

    Now this turiya is the foundation for all other levels of consciousness i.e. wake, dream and deep sleep. This turiya pervades the other states just mentioned as the 'raw materials' for them to exist.
    'But how come I do not experience it like wake or dream?' - Ahhh! the purpose of these posts and discussions; to uncover why this does not occur and the conditions to invite turya to one's experience.

    This turiya is there and can be experienced during any one of the 'gaps' or junction points, some like to call this saṁdhyā - the junction point between dusk and dawn; There are many, but lets keep it simple. Some call this gap sandhyā, the junction or holding together point , the gap.
    It can be found between any two gaps if one's antenna is tuned accordingly. This is the purpose of upāya-s and dhāraṇā-s, to give the individual a 'tune-up' that will allow the experient ( that would be us) to experience this refined level of awareness in a gap.

    There are multiple analogies or metaphors we can use… I am hoping saidevo and atanu will contribute and offer their analogies as they always have good visual examples that we can relate to. Yet let me take a stab at one. This is the notion of light pouring out a window.

    Say you are walking at night and you go past a home with the shutters closed. You still can see the light seeping out from the corners. The same way, say you are walking down a dark hall way, with doors to the left and right of you ( say you are in a hotel late at night); you will see light seeping out from around and under the doors, pouring into the hall. Like that, just as one smoothly transfers from one state of consciousness to another, there is sandhyā, this junction between being awake and going into sleep - it is in the junction that this gap can be experienced, if one's antenna is tuned accordingly.

    Now, sometimes people have this experience of turiya during the day (I have and will explain in a moment)… One can be thinking about something, then one can enter a dream-like state. This is called day-dreaming and the wise call it jāgratsvapna, dreaming while awake. I think this is not foreign to many. Yet between the wakeful state and this dream experience, this turiya, the 4th, may be encountered. Many have told me of this experience, that as this day-dreaming began, when jāgratsvapna occurred innocently, they experienced another level, of perfect silence, absorption. They did not stay there very long but they new it was not sleep, nor where they dreaming, but felt awake inside.

    Another person was a musician. He said as he played, he was adoring, enjoying the music he was playing. His fingers moved without effort, his full attention on listening to the full sound of the music, and then he said all he experienced was 'full awakeness', ' I was not confined nor was I dreaming, I was awake yet in another place'.
    Many have this experience and see it as mystical. Why ? because they are not certain of the steps to reproduce the same experience that brought them to turiya.
    For me, I was listening to music, effortlessly, and had headphones on. As I listened, turiya would come. I would not push it way, but allow it to occur. This is the key , one cannot 'demand' that turiya comes, it is the innocence of the experient, to set the conditions for this experience to occur. Yet some may call it mystical, that is okay, what is important is , that it is repeatable, and one understands the process and conditions for this experience to happen. You can bring the horse to water they say but you cannot make it drink, applies here. We can only set up the comfortable, non-threatening, easy conditions for this experience to occur and let go.

    This is music example is also as a upāya can be found in the Vijñāna Bhairava , 73rd kārikā¹. There is a post on this, and is listed in the footnotes.

    Let's stop here and see if anyone wishes to ask questions or contribute to the post. This information offered sets us up to expend the conversation to turīyātīta, that which is beyond.

    pranams

    words & references
    • turya तुर्य - the forth or forming the 4th part; yet there are no 'parts' other then turya being 4th in line of wake , dream and sleep or turīya तुरीय a 4th or 4th part
    • turīyātīta is turīya + atīta - the 4th + beyond, past. Hence turīyātīta is beyond the 4th. atīta अतीत - gone beyond, past
    • jalpa जल्प - dispute via an overbearing replay that is intended more for winning a debatethen advancing the conversation
    • pramātaṛ प्रमातृ - performer of a mental operation that results in correct true conception;
    • pramātaī - one who has pramātaṛ
    • śaktipāta शक्तिपात- is defined as prostraction of strength; yet to know this word requires a two part view: śakti is is energy,
      power, ability, might + pāta is from pat पत्and this is to take part in, to share or to fall or get into or among; This śaktipāta is to take part in śakti , that is shared from a guru, master, muni, etc. It's said there is 3 types - intense, medium and gentle.
    • dīkṣā दीक्षा - initiation into a practice, upāya or dhāraṇā that by which one reaches one's aim , a means or expedient
    • upāya-s उपाय - that by which one reaches one's aim , a means
    • dhāraṇā धारणा - undistracted instruction; collection or concentration of the mind (joined with the retention of breath); the act of holding , bearing , wearing , supporting , maintaining ;firmness , steadfastness , righteousness
    • caitanya चैतन्य - Consciousness
    • saṁdhyā - the junction point bwtween dusk and dawn; or some call it sandhyā s junction or the holding together point , the gap.
    • Past turiya conversations on HDF:
    • The Import of Turiya: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1822
      The Summary of the import of Turiya: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2050
      Finding Turiya : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2996
    • Vijñāna Bhairava , 73rd kārikā HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=19415&postcount=10
    Last edited by yajvan; 09 May 2010 at 12:30 PM. Reason: updates / adjustments
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Revisitng Turīya

    Hari O
    ~~~~~~

    Namaste

    This information offered sets us up to extend the conversation to turīyātīta, that which is beyond.
    Let's continue the conversation. From the last post I hope we laid the ground work for turīyā itself as the 4th. Now we take a look at turīyātīta.
    Turīyātīta is turīya + atīta : turīya is the 4th + atīta or beyond, past. Hence turīyātīta is beyond the 4th. So lets see what we have:
    1. jāgrat जाग्रत्- waking
    2. svapna ( some write svapana) स्वपन- dreaming; now this dream can come during sleep or even during the day
    3. suṣupti - सुषुप्ति- is deep sleep; some call complete unconsciousness; this is no bodily awareness or external awareness at this time.
    4. turya तुर्य- the forth or forming the 4th part; yet there are no 'parts' other then turya being 4th in line of wake , dream and sleep or turīya तुरीय a 4th or 4th part
    5. Turīyātīta is turīya + atīta : -turīya is the 4th + atīta or beyond, past. Hence turīyātīta is beyond the 4th.

    From a 'next in line' perspective Turīyātīta is in fact beyond the 4th, turya, but that is where all similarities end. for those not established in this Turīyātīta this is the best name for it. But for the jnani-s, muni-s, yogin-s the realized ones attributing a name to it is indescribable.
    We have used the term uccarā rahitam vastu - the Reality that is devoid of utterance or Indescribable.
    Yet the wise try to offer a word, pracaya¹ or totality. We know it is beyond words, beyond thought, but the wise try to give us a notion. In fact they say it is mahā-pracaya, the Great Totality. This is found in the Mālinī Vijaya Tantra, it says the following :

    mahā-pracayam-icchanti
    turyātitaṁ vicakṣaṇāh||
    The bright, radiant (vicakṣaṇāh - bright, splendid ) i.e. the wise desire (icchanti - rooted in iṣ, to desire ) the Great (mahā) Supreme Totality (pracaya) of turyātitaṁ ( beyond the 4th).
    I am happy to hear others view point, insights and translations on this sloka from Mālinī Vijaya Tantra ( Chapter 2, 38th śloka)

    There is another name that I happen to like that captures this idea of this mahā-pracaya, the Great Totality but in a slightly different way. The word is satatoditam. Svāmi Laksmanjoo offers this word from the Tantrāloka. It is that which has no pause, no break.
    This for me really captures the essence of this totality, the fullness. Svāmi-ji says ' It is breakless and unitary. In samādhi it is there and when samādhi is absent it is there. And in sleep it is there; in each and every state of subjective body it is there. If I look at this word I see it as sat + a-tu + dita. Which says to me, that which really is (sat) + not (a) +to have authority (tu) + bound or divided (dita). Or that Reality that cannot be bound or divided.

    That is why I have mentioned this turiya as turīyātīta is unbiquitious, in every crack and crevice, every where. The Bṛhadaraṇyaka Upaniṣad says 'it fills us to our (finger) nail ends'. Yet no matter how we try and describe it, we will always fall short of its true nature i.e. uccarā rahitam vastu - Indescribable.

    Now that we have a better view of this turīyātīta, we can then suggest the differences in personal experiences. To experience turīya the native becomes absorbed in the 4th. The word absorption is another way of saying samādhi - complete fixity. This samādhi is from the root dhā or being held in place, to hold. The personal experience is of absorption, being held in place, within pure awareness.

    Then we look at turīyātīta and the experience is now this pure consciousness , the totality, satatoditam, co-exists with the natives other levels of awareness - wake, dream and sleep. It does not leave. From my personal experience ( which is fleeting i.e. comes and goes in short periods ) it is beyond words, yet one still is entertaining the accustomed levels of awareness of wake or dream or even sleep.

    I have mentioned that the experience is different, and this is so because in the experience of turīya and samādhi there is the fullness of pure consciousness and total absorption. Yet with turīyātīta there is the ability to support this turīyātīta plus the existing level of awareness that the individual cycles through, throughout the day and night. How can this occur? This is the refinement of the nervous system, the village of the senses, as my teacher called it.

    A simple example of supporting two levels of awareness. Say you need to go to the Airport and you drive there. All along the way you comply to the traffic rules, read the signs and directions to get there, and you may even take a phone call or two on your cell phone. Yet all along the way there is the impression, awareness of the Airport that is in the mind, yet you are doing all these other things. Like that, Being, turīyātīta, Brahman stays with the native in totality without pause or break (satatoditam).

    We need a more reliable source to discuss this experience over time. If one wished to read this experience from a muni there are plenty of books offered. One book that has gained merit is from Śrī Nisargadatta Mahārāj's book I am That.

    Yet what of talking to just an average person that is interested in pursuing mokśa that could comment on some of these experiences? I met a person that had this experience of turīyātīta in his life for 6 months. This conversation occurred a few years ago. He continues to remind me that no matter what we may think of this state, it is Indescribable when experienced first hand. To those outside of this satatoditam it can only be voiced as turīyātīta. Yet for the experient where this satatoditam is part of one's daily experience, it changes the notion of Reality. If you care to read some of this individual's experiences, here is the HDF post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1524

    pranams

    words & references
    • maha मह- great, abundant
    • pracaya प्रचय- totality; accumulation, heap, mass, quantity
    • vicakṣaṇāhविचक्षण - visible , bright , radiant , splendid
    • iइष् - to desire , wish, long for, request
    • tu तु - to have authority
    • dita दित - bound, divided
    • sat सत् that which really is, entity or existence, essence; the true being or really existent
    • turya तुर्य- the forth or forming the 4th part; yet there are no 'parts' other then turya being 4th in line of wake , dream and sleep or turīya तुरीय a 4th or 4th part
    • turīyātīta is turīya + atīta - the 4th + beyond, past. Hence turīyātīta is beyond the 4th. atīta अतीत- gone beyond, past
    • Śrī Nisargadatta Mahārāj - his name Nisargadatta is compounded of Nisarga + datta or granting + gift or offering.
    Last edited by yajvan; 11 September 2008 at 10:37 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Revisitng Turīya: Why Pursue?

    Hari Oṁ
    ~~~~~

    I hope we can cover
    Turīya and some definitions
    Awareness or consciousness and its various states
    A more refined look at these states of consciousness
    How yoga and practice experience these states
    Any personal exeriences people wish to contribute
    Various techniques
    Why is turīya even worth pursuing?
    References to āgamas and śastra-s for support and insight
    Questions and insightful responses with minimum jalpa (disputes)
    Namaste
    The question becomes for some, why even pursue this? There are multiple reasons and points of view on this matter. Let me list out a few that I think are relevant.
    • Improved body-mind coordination. Smoother functioning of the system; A healthier body and mind though the elimination of stress and strain i.e. balanced intellect and balanced disposition.
    • The unfoldment of one's dharma - sva dharma¹ (individual dharma) connected to sādhāraṇa¹ (collective) dharma i.e. the improvement of the quality of life for society - if you are not a peace with your self how can there be peace within society? - it must start with the unit of society, the individual.
    • Living the Fullness of life with enjoyment of freedom that accompanies this level of Being
    • Acting from the level of consciousness that brings no binding actions, no vāsanā-s¹ (seed impressions or conditioning), karma becomes like a roasted seed.
    • Doing His work - you are absorbed in anuttara ( the Supreme); there's joy.
    • You do not come back - saṁsāra¹ is brought to a halt.
    I have also heard 'if I start this practice and I do not attain kevalya, all my efforts have gone to waste'. A reasonable assessment, yet Kṛṣṇa advises us differently. In the Bhāgavad gītā, chapt 2, 40th śloka He says in this (yoga) no effort (abhikrama) is ever lost and no obstacle (pratyavāya&#185 exists. Even a little of this dharma delivers (one) from great fear (bhayāt).Kṛṣṇa is saying your efforts will yield results, yet your efforts accompany you going forward. How so ? We need to forward to Chapt 6 śloka 37.

    Arjuna asks, what occurs if this yoga is not achieved? Kṛṣṇa says in the following few verses (40 to 44) the he that strayed from yoga is born into the house of the pure and illustrious; or born into a family of yogi-s endowed with wisdom (albeit this is more difficult).There he continues his progress to yoga. Kṛṣṇa says by that former practice ( past life's effort) he is irresistibly borne on ( he continues the pursuit).

    pranams

    words used
    • kevalya केवल- liberation ; simple , pure , uncompounded , unmingled ; mokśa
    • pratyavāya प्रत्यवाय- decrease, diminution, reversed, reverse, contrary course, opposite i.e. obstacle.
    • bhayāt or bhaya भय- fear, alarm dread apprehension
    • sva स्व - own, one's own, my own, thy own, his or her own
    • sādhāraṇa साधारण - applicable to many or all, common to all , universal; " having or resting on the same support or basis"
    • dharma - root in dhधृ - to uphold, support, maintain , preserve - that which upholds
    • vāsanā-s वासना - the impression of anything remaining unconsciously in the mind ; residual impression - this is also the root of saṁskāra
    • saṁskāra संस्कार - putting together , forming well , making perfect
    • saṁsāra संसार - course , passage , passing through a succession of states , circuit of mundane existence , transmigration; ~ birth-after-birth
    Last edited by yajvan; 25 August 2008 at 09:34 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Revisitng Turīya: Why Pursue?

    I heard Brahmacharya is necessary to get into turiya.

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    Re: Revisitng Turīya: Why Pursue?

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~


    Quote Originally Posted by Atman View Post
    I heard Brahmacharya is necessary to get into turiya.
    Namaste Atman,
    See what you think of this definition of Brahmacara http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...t=Brahmacharya
    We can the continue the conversation if you wish.

    pranams
    Last edited by yajvan; 26 August 2008 at 10:00 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Revisitng Turīya

    Hari Oṁ
    ~~~~~

    There is another name that I happen to like that captures this idea of this mahā-pracaya, the Great Totality but in a slightly different way. The word is satatoditam. Svāmi Laksman-ji offers this word from the Tantrāloka. It is that which has no pause, no break.
    This for me really captures the essence of this totality, the fullness. Svāmi-ji says ' It is breakless and unitary. In samādhi it is there and when samādhi is absent it is there. And in sleep it is there; in each and every state of subjective body it is there. If I look at this word I see it as sat + a-tu + dita. Which says to me, that which really is (sat) + not (a) +to have authority (tu) + bound or divided (dita). Or that Reality that cannot be bound or divided.
    Namaste

    This post is to help connect the dots.

    We have reviewed the notion of turya and turīyātīta above. It is quite natural for an individual to think there is 'here' this world of diversity, of duality, some just call the relative field of existence, and then there is this transcendent place. That is, this transcendent is separate from the finite world of things and places, of multiplicity.

    If the notion of the Supreme, anuttara, is satatoditam, without break or pause, then the notion of This (here) and That ( the transcendent) would perhaps be a incorrect way of viewing what sattā ( existence, Being) really is.

    Abhinavagupta¹ helps us better understand this notion. He offers some thoughts that have helped me better appreciate anuttara. He says the Supreme is sva-prakāśa - One's own + light or illumination. That is the Supreme is self-illuminating, and does not depend upon anything other then its SELF for its Being. It's nature is cidātman - that is Consciousness. The same awareness that pours out of your eyes, ears for hearing, thinking, your attention, etc. is the same consciousness, there is no two.

    So one can say His body is saṃvidrūpa. This is saṃvid+rūpa : saṃvid is consciousness + rūpa or form , shape or figure. Why do I mention this? Because this consciousness is present everywhere i.e. satatoditam it is that which has no pause or break. It is completely full, and it is called paripūrṇānuttara ( pari + pūrṇāna + anuttara). So it is pari (fully , abundantly , richly) + pūrṇā (full) + anuttara (Supreme, none can surpass).

    If the Supreme has this paripūrṇānuttara as its nature ( some say as its abode dhāma) what then can be outside of it? It cannot be only completely full in the transcendent. It must be completely full both in the Absolute ( transcendent) and the Relative ( duality) of creation.
    That is why this experience of turīyātīta is so unique - it is so full, it is indescribable. As mentioned in a previous post above:
    the wise try to offer a word, pracaya¹ or totality. We know it is beyond words, beyond thought, but they try to give us a notion. In fact they say it is mahā-pracaya

    This Supreme (anuttara) is defined 16 different ways by Abhinavagupta-ji in the Parā-trīśikā Vivaraṇa. This 16 number is also another way of saying fullness, as the 16th digit indicates competeness and fullness - perhaps we can address at a later date.

    So, what are we missing? Why does are eyes no 'see' this ? We are missing para-paśyata - the highest (divine) view of the Universe in its undifferentiated form i.e. satatoditam.

    But how can I attain this?
    Withdraw then withdraw from the withdraw. We know that these words as sutras ( or stitches, snippets). So people ask withdraw from what? Withdraw from the parts (aṅga) and experience the whole,(aṅgī); then withdraw from the withdrawal i.e. withdraw from that whole or aṅgī, and come back to the parts. Now what's that again?

    Withdraw from the duality of life, the parts, diversity (aṅga) and experience fullness, bhuma, turīya ( aṅgī ), then come back to diversity.
    What is going on with this? It is the cleaning process that Abhinavagupta suggested in the past post¹:
    Just as by washing the dirt or impurity lying in the inner fold of a cloth, the dirt lying on the upper portion ( the outer folds) gets automatically washed or cleansed ; even so, by the removal of the dirt (mala) lying at the subtle levels, the dirt residing at the madhyamā levels get automatically removed.


    शशिशेखराय नमः
    om śaśiśekharāya namaḥ
    We bow to shashishekhara, the Bearer of the moon


    pranams

    words and references
    • Turīyātīta is turīya + atīta : turīya is the 4th + atīta or beyond, past. Hence turīyātīta is beyond the 4th.
    • turya तुर्य- the forth or forming the 4th part; yet there are no 'parts' other then turya being 4th in line of wake , dream and sleep or turīya तुरीयa 4th or 4th part
    • saṃvid स्व - consciousness , perception; to perceive , feel
    • rūpa रूप - form, shape or figure ;nature, character, mark, sign, likeness, image.
    • dhāma धाम - abode
    • maha मह- great, abundant
    • pracaya प्रचय- totality; accumulation, heap, mass, quantity
    • paśyata पश्यत - visible, conspicious; paśyat is seeing, beholding; paśyantī पश्यन्ती she stands and looks on ( Śrī Devī )
    • Abhinava HDF Post on the cloth analogy: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=24223&postcount=4
    • Abhinavagupta linegage: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3150
    Last edited by yajvan; 18 September 2008 at 11:14 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #7
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    Re: Revisitng Turīya

    Great Post. Thank You.

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    Re: Revisitng Turīya

    Hari Oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namaste

    Note with this 'withdraw' discussion from the above posts, the sādhaka¹ opens him/her self to nirvikalpa¹ - that is a condition free from change or differences. This means the sādhu experiences this pure awareness with the withdrawal from duality, from the parts.

    This would be called asaṃprajñāta samādhi if we were talking about the Yoga sūtras (Yogadarśana) of Patañjali. This is called out in Chapter 1, the 18th sūtra of the Yoga sūtras.

    There are two flavors:
    saṃprajñāta (saṃ+pra+jñāta&#185 samādhi - the mind is not fully absorbed ( many like to call this not fully 'arrested')

    asaṃprajñāta (a+saṃ+pra+jñāta&#185 samādhi - the mind is fully absorbed , and some call objectless samādhi

    Lets just say a person is using a mantra, a sound for meditation. Let's say it’s a bīja and the potency of this mantra is realized (mantravīrya&#185, then this bīja becomes nir-bīja¹. What's this?
    Through the process of 'withdraw' the mind goes inwards, settles down and then finally, with practice and time, experiences asaṃprajñāta samādhi. When this occurs, the vehicle ( bīja ) is left behind (nir).

    What occurred? Transcendence to come and experience turīya, fulfilling the 'withdraw' part of the process we have discussed above.

    pranams

    words used

    • sādhaka साधक - accomplishing, fulfilling, completing, perfecting , finishing; note how close the word sādaka सादक - exhausting , wearying , destroying is to this word. This almost applies as the sādhaka is also destroying ignorance.
    • nirvikalpa निर्विकल्प free from change or differences ; no wavering
    • mantravīrya is mantra + vīrya. Mantra मन्त्र we know as a specific sound , a hymn or sacrificial formula
    • some call it an instrument of thought + vīrya वीर्य valor , strength , power , energy , luster
    • nir निर् = nis निस् - or without, away from
    • saṃ+pra+jñāta:
    • sam सम् - in this application is to be disturbed, rooted in śam - to become tired, finish, stop, come to an end
    • pra प्र - is filling, excessively, very, much
    • jṅātā (jṅātṛ) ज्णाता - is the knower. We have seen this word also used in jṅāna or knowledge; jṅānatā is another name for consciousness.
    • Hence saṃ+pra+jñāta is the aspirant ( the knower) ~consciousness~ with flux or (disturbances i.e. thoughts) as progressing to/or experiencing samādhi yet not totally absorbed. Hence the samādhi is not stable or continuous, it is disturbed by a thought, or feeling , or something outside of the absorbed state.
    • Next but putting the "a" in front , we have a+saṃ+pra+jñāta. The "a" means 'not' . So it is one without disturbance, and absorbed in samādhi.
    • samādhi समाधि - union, a whole, aggregate ; absorption; Absorbed in pure awareness
    Last edited by yajvan; 11 September 2008 at 10:40 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Revisitng Turīya

    Namaste Yajvan.

    Your posts in this thread are immensely interesting, informative, useful and enlightening, as they cover all the key aspects of turIya and turIyAtIta (the fourth and beyond). Thank you for a great thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    I am hoping saidevo and atanu will contribute and offer their analogies as they always have good visual examples that we can relate to.
    Thanks for your compliment. I can indeed think of some everyday analogies that might perhaps relate to these two lofty states of existence.

    Perhaps the most useful analogy for every person's perception of turIya is the clock-tick. If we think over it, we would find that any systolic-diastolic beat in time is a candidate for perception of turIya: the clock-tick, our heart-beat, pulse, breathing, the movement of bellows, and any such other act we might think of.

    There is more to the clock-tick than meets the eye, or rather the ear. If we keenly listen to the clock-tick, we usually anticipate and hear the tick rather than the silence. Our mind simply skips the silence and dwells on the sound, though the silence is as audible as the sound! So the trick to perception of turIya here is to anticipate and hear the silence rather than the sound. Not to brood over the silence or sound, but just to be aware more of the silence than the sound.

    What is the nature of the silence and sound involved in a clock-tick, any way? In one sense, we can say that the eternal silence of turIya is perforated, as it were, by the ticks. Does this mean that there are holes in the silence created by the sound? They can't be because, as you say, turIya is the substratum of all manifestations which are projected over it. So, when the tick happens, it creates a dent rather than a hole, in the infinite ocean of the eternal silence of turIya. And the silence rushes in to fill up the dent as tick is over! We can have an idea of turIyAtIta in this analogy, when we train our mind to forget both the silence and the sound and focus awareness on what lies beneath them, which is, I think, the Universal Consciousness whose nature is sat-chit-Ananda (existence-knowledge-bliss).

    Another analogy we can think of is the rhythmic fall of water drops from a tap into a metal vessel beneath it. Say we can clock the rhythm to a second or less, so we can be aware of the sound and silence they generate. With an empty vessel, we hear loud clanks that drown the silence. As the water level rises in the vessel, we hear the sound in plops and the silence between them is more marked. The water drops also generate a bubble or two, which cluster around for sometime before they burst noiselessly into silence. When a bubble grows big enough, we can of course hear the soft pop of its bursting. As with the clock-tick, we can have an idea of the silence of turIya here by focussing awareness on the moments of silence.

    Now, if we adjust the tap so the water flows as a continuous thread that has no breaks, we would find that the bubbles appear less in number, and smaller in size, and at one point they completely vanish, so the water flows like a column of silence from the tap to the surface of the level in the vessel and then spreads out over it in silence. This state may be likenened to the state of turIyAta.

    In the two systolic-diastolic analogies of clock-drick and tap-water-drops, the sounds are of a shorter duration. A quartz clock or watch typically beats at one second intervals. That is, the time of silence between ticks is one second. Those who are familiar with the older, mechanical clocks and watches might know that they beat in half-second intervals: that is, instead of the sequence of tick--silence--tick of the quartz clocks, they generate the sequence of tick-tick--silence--tick-tick.

    I bought a Henry Sandoz mechanical wrist watch in March 1971 for my university examinations and was wearing it until May 2008, thus for over 37 years! Of course, I would have done repairs and services to the watch at least four or five times during this time, but it worked very well and I was fond and proud of it! Recently, it stopped working, so I changed it to a quartz watch, keeping the old dial. With this mechanical watch, I found it difficult to focus awareness on the tiny half-second intervals of silence. And in fact there is another interval of silence, far tinier, within the double tick-tick!

    The normal rate of our heart-beat and pulse is 72 times a minute. It is more difficult even to consistently feel and concentrate on the intervals of silences in them. However, I think, they can make us gaze into ourselves and dilute our thoughts than more than the clock-tick does. To focus awareness on our inner sensations is a sure-fire technique of relaxation.

    Our breathing is more drawn out and subjective in its three phases of pUraka (inhaling), rechaka (exhaling) and the kumbhaka (silence) between the two. The silence phase here is normally far less marked, so breath-watching is more used as a technique of relaxation rather than for perceiving turIya, unless one practices prANAyAma.

    Our breathing is akin to the mantra AUM which has three phases: A (AtmA, awareness of Self), U (anAtmA, awareness and negation of Not-Self) and M (turIya, silence). The silence in AUM is more drawn out, however, and chanting the mantra is a good way to perceive turIyA, in my opinion.

    As you have pointed out, the key in all these analogies is to focus awareness on the silence phases, in a natural manner, without forcing it.

    I have some thoughts and questions on turIya, which I shall discuss in a separte post.
    Last edited by saidevo; 11 September 2008 at 09:26 AM.

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    Re: Revisitng Turīya

    How does one know he has reached turIya?

    There is the flush of immense bliss true to one's intrinsic nature, and the great awareness of the true nature of everything that exists- Brahman, Ishvara, cit and acit. There is nothing that one does not know in that state.

    Normally our consciousness is outward. We feel that we are small beings living inside a vast universe. In turIya samAdhi, the awareness is reversed. The universe we see becomes an insignificant grain of sand, and we realize our true infinite nature transcending beyond time and space. The whole of cosmos looks like a small bag suspended on the fabric of consciousness that is turIya. Such infinite knowledge and bliss experienced makes one know that he has reached it. When you percieve your own nature to be vastly bigger ( and complete) than than the entire cosmos of dualty, you have attained turIya.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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