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    How to fight Casteism?

    Namaste,
    This is a long post. Please bear with me. I have a friend who belongs to a small village, he is very intelligent and made has made a good progress in his life. But, I was shocked by some of his attitudes. Please see our conversation.

    he: I don't like new policies where education is accesible to all.
    Our toilet cleaner's sons are having good jobs, so the mother have stopped working as a toiler cleaner.

    me: Isn't that good?

    he: No, but initially they were polite and always sat on the floor when they come to home as guests. Now they have started sitting on Chairs.

    me: who so ever comes to my place receives a good hospitality. Why should a lower caste person should not sit on the chair?

    he: Yes, but toilet cleaning, garbage collection etc. are also tasks to be done, and who will do that?

    me: come on, if my son does not have brains, he will do menial works. If toilet cleaner's son has brains, he will do a reputed job.

    he: No, but they are born to do that job.

    I did not continue the discussion.

    So, this is not to bash my dear friend, but there are many many people like him. How to change people's attitude where they think that they have God given right to treat other's as subhuman.

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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Namaste,

    Your friend is sorely mistaken not because he thinks that one born into a particular caste is most likely to do the job of his brethren, but because he thinks that he, as the doer, and others should & can enforce Varnashrama Dharma, which is completely natural!

    Although Varnashrama Dharma is natural, when enforced by man becomes corrupted as ulterior motives and personal bias, agenda, and predilictions take over. When a sUdra, vaIsya, kSatrIyA, and brAhmanA act according to his svAdharmA, society as a whole benefits and is in perfect equilibrium. When this balance is disturbed for whatever reason, the consequences are dire and society as a whole breaks down.

    Call it old-fashioned, Varnashrama Dharma, when naturally followed is the perfect form of governance (by GOD). However, this is a call in the wilderness these days as each person's "individuality" or EGO is so bloated that actions toward the betterment of society is seen as foolish and even as subjugation by others.

    I do agree however that no matter what background one is from, if one has the aptitude, one must be given the opportunity to succeed.

    Subham.

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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    In Tamilnadu, the political parties DMK and DK profess themselves to be atheists but are sickeningly perverse: the leaders of these parties spread canards against Brahmins (who is just 3% in Tamilnadu population), and about the Hindu Samskrta scriptures; yet the temples are under the control of the government (HR&CE department) though the churches and mosques are out of such control. The party leaders visit churches and mosques on festive occasions, be the first to criticize Hindus when they retaliate agatinst the evil deeds of the religious minorities and turn a blind eye when those acts are brought to their attention. Their hypocrisy is so worse that they would have only brahmin doctors, auditors and personal advisers for them and their family, their family members would surreptitiously visit temples, and some of them even practise yoga from a brahmin teacher!

    One of their demands is to make people from the lower castes learn Vedas and be temple priests (though it would be against the Agama rules in the big temples) and also do the main worship in temples in Tamil. Long back they Tamilized all the names of Gods, prefixing the names with 'aruLmigu' for 'Sri'. For all such pampering, I am yet to see a genuinely interested man from the so-called lower castes to rise up to scholarship in Sanskrit and Scriptures and become even remotely qualified for the job of a priest, though many of them learn Sanskrit in the private schools they study.

    And for all the rhetoric of the politicians, I doubt if a popular political leader or a celebrity from the cinema, sports and bureaucracy would admit a servant or a toilet cleaner or people of low castes into their own homes, and dine with them sitting on the same table. Thus it is such people--not the brahmins--and some misguided Hindus of other higher castes who harass the people of the lower castes, specially in villages. The very same leaders would not raise their voices against such harassment because if they did, they would lose votes of the higher castes.

    The VarNa and even the Caste System that lends color and diversity to the Hindu culture cannot and must not be done away with. It is this system that has saved the Hindu culture and tradition from the Islamic invasion and the British colonnial rule.

    This does not mean that deserving people from the lower castes should not progress and prosper, but only that they should not be unduly pampered for such progress. Hindu dharma has a system called 'vrAtyastoma' which absorbs and assmilates even the non-Hindus into the Hindu society, if they freely seek it, so why not a person of a lower caste move up the ladder, if and only if he/she has proven credentials?

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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    I think the caste system in its present form must be abolished. It should be abolished not by reducing everyone to the lowest level, but raising everyone to the highest level of morality and spirituality - yes, we need to make all Hindus Brahmins through highest instructions.

    It is not sufficient for someone to claim himself to be a brahmin. He should prove his merit. A true Brahmin is a wall of fire - a storehouse of tapasya - he can burn dry grass by his mere penetrative looks. But is there a brahmin who can do that these days? When there is no difference between a brahmin and others why have this classification that divides our society. People hardly realize that this has helped our corrupt politicians to craftily implement the divide and rule policy. This has prevented Hindus from grabbing the political power at the centre inspite of Hindu majority.

    Christianity is eating away the Hindu religion very fast, There are 28% of christians in Tamil Nadu now. It is rising steeply in both Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. The temple lands of Tirupati Balaji are being sold on a large scale because of corrupt state govt in AP and this will cripple the temple in future.

    Caste system in its present form is a weak point of Hinduism and is a target of missionaries. Brahmins dont have any spirittual power to demonstrate ( can they atleast do faith healing?) not even have the power to protect themselves and therefore all people are at the same level now and no need of discrimination.

    All our Hindu leaders must act together and abolish it and make every Hindu a Brahmin and give them sacred threads. Each Hindu will then take pride in being a Hindu and will not sell his soul for cheap missionary tactics. Every Hindu must be taught the greatness of our religion and the hollowness of Adharmic religions such as christianity and islam. Then only we wiill surive. If you dont do this now, be prepared to become second class citizen in our own country in a christian/muslim majority India in future.

    Sorry for being controversial but I am just thinking out loud! We have messed our society and exposed it to be exploited by mlecchas and asuras.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Namaste Sudarshan.

    Let me also try to do some loud thinking on what you have written. I totally agree with you, "We have messed our society and exposed it to be exploited by mlecchas and asuras", but don't honestly think that the solutions you offer could all be successful.

    It is true that today's brahmins are turning more and more worldly, giving up their dharma. What is also true is that they don't voluntarily opt for such a life, only the circumstances force them to do it, in my opinion. The lack of opportunity and the lure of money are the primary factors that induce brahmins to choose professions and life that are un-brahminical.

    But then it is also true that there are many brahmins who have chosen a life to follow their dharma, though this is a minuscule percentage of the brahmin population. Whatever little sustenance, maintenance and survival of the Hindu dharma we see is by and large due to them. Today's Vedic brahmins may not be able to 'burn dry grass' at mere sight, but they can and do bring in rain, peace and prosperity due to the innumerable yajnas that are taking place daily in Tamilnadu and other states of India, using the philanthropy of the nobles souls from other castes. A good percentage of today's householder-brahmins do follow their dharma, their 'nitya karmas', provide and partake 'satsangs', the brahmin women do daily pujas and conduct group chanting of stotras like Lalitha Sahasranama and so on, in spite of the situation that they get far less visiblity and respect in the current social and political set up. Therefore, in my opinion, we cannot discount the efforts of the nobles souls among brahmins as well as in other communities.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudarshan View Post
    I think the caste system in its present form must be abolished. It should be abolished not by reducing everyone to the lowest level, but raising everyone to the highest level of morality and spirituality - yes, we need to make all Hindus Brahmins through highest instructions.

    All our Hindu leaders must act together and abolish it and make every Hindu a Brahmin and give them sacred threads. Each Hindu will then take pride in being a Hindu and will not sell his soul for cheap missionary tactics.
    You must be joking! In what way do you think sacred-threading every Hindu and making them brahmins would make them more religious than they are (capable of) and be immune to the conversion threats of the Christian missionaries? Even brahmins are converting these days! Is every Hindu in India and elsewhere who is not a brahmin, ready for the rigours of the dharma of Vedic brahminism, while you say that today's brahmins themselves are not ready for it?

    Spirituality and religion are sought, not taught. Dharma must become karma, not goaded acts where there is no conviction. A Hindu who wants to be dhArmic, religious and spiritual, can be so, whatever the caste or varNa he/she belongs to. What can be taught is only the awareness and the spiritual advantages of being dhArmic, religious and spiritual, and even then the student has to practise what is taught, this must come from the very young age and the key people responsible for it are not the sages of religious institutions but the parents and educational teachers and to some extent the government.

    Hindu dharma has given status that can be considered on par to all the varNas. For example, a man who is a barber in a saloon, when a festive occasion such as a Hindu wedding or some divine festivity in a temple comes up, closes his saloon for the day, thoroughly washes himself, wears the vibhuti, dons silk clothes and is present with all honours, there at the front, in the nAdasvaram-tavil orchestra group, to initiate the ceremony! In such a honourable social set up, why would a man of the barber caste and varNa want to become a brahmin?

    Most people from the lower castes do not aspire for the position of brahmins or priests in temples; only the politicians say so. A brahmin purohit who lives his life from the Vedic ceremonies he conducts in (specially) brahmin homes and the puja he does to the gods in the temples, earns far little, specially in the suburban and rural areas, than a barber or a housemaid or a construction labourer does in their own jobs! This is the hard truth of how things are today, which is why the people of lower castes don't aspire to become brahmins. What they want is to be provided the equal treatment and opportunity in the society, specially to study the worldly education of science and arts on par with the people of higher castes and take up white color jobs. Here again, because of the government's quota system, the affluent and creamy layers among them corner all the opportunities and waste them with low-key performances. This means that the affluent among the lower castes care nothing for the poor among them, so why blame the brahmins for that?

    It is NOT the brahmins today that harass the dalits and people of lower castes. It is the other high caste Hindus and their own affluent people who harass them. Politicians have vested interests in their vote banks, so turn a blind eye, only indulging in empty rhetoric against brahminism and Hinduism.

    The ultimate solution would perhaps lie in an education and government that is really based on Hindu Dharma that provides fair opportunities for everyone and keeps the society in peace. I would even say that the Indian public are sincerely yearning for such a change. They are not united, however, so they cannot assert themselves. More than from the religion, the initiative of leadership should come from the politics: if there is one honest, popular and patriotic leader (possibly a man like Narendra Modi--I am not his fan or supporter) who can have his way, he would definitely change things permanently for the better.
    Last edited by saidevo; 28 September 2008 at 12:11 PM.

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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Namaste saidevoji, TTA, Sudarshan and reflections,

    Guru Ramana who was almost a Socialist in His approach, however, said: "It is dangerous to discard traditional rules of conduct. Try to think and understand their significance."

    He also said: "To humble oneself more and more is good. Avoid contempt towards those who are low."

    Below are my loud thoughts on the subject. I understand that similar to Varna, which cannot be same for all, a discussion on the subject will also have many varnas and not one.

    Varna is a very deep spiritual truth that is not at all known/relevant for most people. If I am of Brahmin nature (varna-inner color), I will do good as a Brahmin. Any other calling would distort my life and my future. In today's society, ruled by blind desire for consumerism, everyone craves the greener grass elsewhere. Contentment, which actually is the goal of everyone, is pushed far by one's own actions. Jealousy, envy, and hatred control the actions rather than wisdom.

    In addition to educating people on real significance of varna (as best as can be done), I agree to Sudarshan's view to the extent that a certain amount of reform is required so that the negative perceptions of caste system (which is perception and also real pain and shame to many low caste born) cannot be exploited by those who create divisions -- such as missionaries and some Hindus as well.

    The shame of being a so-called low caste born should not be heaped upon some, as Narayana is manifest through all.

    It is mind's nature to be divisive. If we remove all Muslims and Christians from the scene then also we will see Hindus fighting each other on some or other pretext. The problem is not in the varna itself, which is natural, but the problem is human ego and false idea of I-Me-Mine.

    Yet, to foster Brotherhood and Goodness, IMO, a positive reform is called for. (And why restrict it to only the caste divisions -- all divisions are similar).

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Namaste Sai,

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    You must be joking! In what way do you think sacred-threading every Hindu and making them brahmins would make them more religious than they are (capable of) and be immune to the conversion threats of the Christian missionaries? Even brahmins are converting these days! Is every Hindu in India and elsewhere who is not a brahmin, ready for the rigours of the dharma of Vedic brahminism, while you say that today's brahmins themselves are not ready for it?
    I am not all joking. I am being proactive. On what basis can you justify the basis of the present form of caste system? Can you justidy it from the scripture - I mean the vedic corpus?

    And even if you justify from the scripture why do you think it is applicable to the present day world? How would it be different from a christian or a muslim quoting from the scripture that we are all kaffirs?

    You cannot get away with saying that it is due to one's karma that one gets to be born in a certain varNa because karma is an unproved axiom and not available to pratyaxa and anumAna. Our scripture does not support any divisions of varNa apart from being spiritual categories or those based on ones qualities ( as in the Gita). So the varNa a person belongs to is strictly a function of his characteristics and little to do with birth.

    If brahmin's are not upto the mark we could strip them of their status? When has it been done and who will do it? How do you propose to do it?

    This is why I mentioned about getting everyone to the equal level from a social point of view. Our spiritual caste is unknown to us as it is more deeper than our external appearance. Ultimately the Atman is casteless. After providing social equality to all this way, afterwards it is their own responsibility to either go up or down spiritually based on their actions. It is none of our business. One way we could equalize the society is by bringing eveyone to the same level - avatNa, shUdra, vaishya, xatriya or brAhmaNa. Which do you think is more suitable, think about it.

    It is quite unfortunate that this system still has plenty of supporters. My aim in sweeping out the whole system is also to ensure that no injustice is meted out to brahmins and other forward castes due to reservatrions and all such nonsense which will cripple the economy in the long run. By giving jobs to the undeserving we are making our country progress in the reverse direction. The brahmins of today will become untouchables at a future date if you allow the system to exist - because everything is loaded against them. The govt should completely stop asking for religion, caste, subcaste etc in all application forms which can happen only when the system is no more. As long as Brahmins or anyone else wants this system in place, only they will suffer. Christians are even so clever that they are working quite actively to get reservations for the backward converts to christianity - this shows that their motive is not 'soul saving' but mere 'flock increasing'.

    It is time the religeous leaders of India realize the non applicability of the divisions in the present day world that will only cause unhappiness to a lot of people. The varNa system is applicable only in a spiritual society where each person understands the spiritual truth and his own role in it. In a predominantly materialistic world, the discriminations will have more illeffects than their usefulness. All laws are man made - all have their time and place to operate. Almost every religion missed this subtle point and still keeps insisting on following rules written thousands of years ago. Can we deny education to women just because some smritis says so? Think about it.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  8. #8

    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    My take on this:

    History shows that caste system has failed. If we say it's failed because the system itself has some inherent flaws, then we must discard it completely.

    OTOH, if one says the system is good but people have exploited it, then what's the guarantee that people won't continue exploiting it for all time?

    So in either case, the system has to be abandoned.

  9. #9

    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    My take on this:

    History shows that caste system has failed. If we say it's failed because the system itself has some inherent flaws, then we must discard it completely.

    OTOH, if one says the system is good but people have exploited it, then what's the guarantee that people won't continue exploiting it for all time?

    So in either case, the system has to be abandoned.
    Namaste Infinite Regress,
    May your at stay of Hindu dharma forums be beneficial.

    My view may contoversial, in my view: Varna is by aptitude of people. You can do away with formal caste system but Varna will always remain there. In every society,people can be classified as intellectuals or brave and strong or entrepreneurs or labourers. You have 5 fingers, you nourish them all and protect them all. But, each has its own function. Pinky can not simply do thumb's work.

    Every system has been exploited wrongly by humans. We don't throw the systems. Do we? Sometimes Democracy is exploted by dictators. Do we abandon democracy? Banks do go through financial crisis. Do we stop investing completely?

    Yes, we do need to be critical, introspective, find faults and correct those.

    People on HDF may debate whether the Varna is birth based or aptitude based. However, you will not find anyone denying basic rights (Education, progress) to lower castes or advocating untouchability.

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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Namaste Infinite Regress.

    Such views as you have expressed are seemingly clever, but actually extreme. Using the same logic, you can say:

    • History shows that science and scientific research have failed consistently; their inventions contribute more to the destruction of humanity than material progress.

    • History shows that allopathy medicine does not go to the root of diseases, only cures the symptoms, which nevertheless recur. The only thing it is good at is surgery but even in this area, ancient Hindus had better expertise.

    • History shows that the systems of political and administrative government, even democracy, breed only corruption and create greedy monsters in the name of political leaders.

    • "OTOH, if one says the system is good but people have exploited it, then what's the guarantee that people won't continue exploiting it for all time?"

    So in either case, these systems have to be abandoned.

    In any system which is human made, there is bound to be progress and regress, indicating flaws in the system. A wise course of action is to minimize the flaws and continue with the system.

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