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Thread: How to fight Casteism?

  1. #21

    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste IR.



    Yes, you're right: science, medicine and democracy started with flaws, self-corrected them, found a lot more flaws, self-corrected them, still found so many other flaws, and keeps self-correcting them, going on thus in an endless loop of trial and error.
    The difference is: this seemingly endless loop is necessary for evolution. Or else, medical marvels wouldn't be possible today. Or political revolutions such as the transition from dictatorship to democracy, the separation of church and state, and the rest. But persisting with caste system has NOT led to any changes for the better. Hence, the comparison doesn't hold good.

    The varNa system, on the other hand, was founded flawless because it was given to us by the Rishis who compiled the scriptures.

    This is the problem, you see? Not many Hindus are going to believe in scriptures, much less in its supposed flawlessness. Either we should convert them by force, which isn't such a good idea. Or, we must educate them, which is a near impossible task, considering the texts are in Sanskrit. Educating millions in this matter would require enormous amount of time, money, and energy. And quite frankly, it's like fighting a losing battle.


    It is this situation of exploitation that needs to be corrected. It can be done only by restoring the rule of the Hindu Dharma under the varNa system that advocates a simple life of self-reliance, in harmony with nature, avoiding all luxuries of technology and industrialization.
    Avoidance of all luxuries of technology and industrialization? We're able to make this statement with the help of technology! Besides, wealth cannot be generated with this attitude.

    What I am trying to say is: In the 21st century world, would it not be better to follow winning ways? If our system is perfect, it wouldn't have suffered so many blows for centuries. Since western culture has pervaded almost every country in the world, isn't that evidence that it's superior? And if it's superior to other systems of thought, why can't we embrace it?

    Let Hinduism guide our inner development. Yoga, meditation, scriptural study etc. help us toward understanding Brahman. Why must we extend Hinduism to politics as well? Let it be a religion and nothing more.

    Put simply, let's be Hindus by religion and westerners by culture. That way, we can keep our glorious traditions alive, plus reap the benefits of a superior western system. We can have the best of both worlds.

  2. #22
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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Typical garbage spewed out by another 'person' who hasn't the slightest clue as to what Varnashrama Dharma is.

    Let me guess. You're either a westerner who's "heard about Hinduism" or a pseudo-secular Hindu/Indian who's trying to be "rational".

    Furthermore, it is better not to come across as pontificating to those who have read and understand the matter at hand infinitely more than you do. Ever heard of reverence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    My take on this:

    History shows that caste system has failed. If we say it's failed because the system itself has some inherent flaws, then we must discard it completely.

    OTOH, if one says the system is good but people have exploited it, then what's the guarantee that people won't continue exploiting it for all time?

    So in either case, the system has to be abandoned.

  3. #23
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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    chaturvarNayaM maya sRuShtaM guNakarmavibhAgaShaH |
    tasya kartAramapi mAM viddhyakartAramavyayam ||

    "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."

    Namaste Friends,

    "It is dangerous to discard traditional rules of conduct. Try to think and understand their significance."

    Shri Ramana
    The Gita verse and also the one from Purusha Suktam are amenable to two types of views:

    View A. God has instituted the varna system and thus my Brahmana hood and the associated benefits are justified and the status quo should remain. OTOH, a Shudra rebels at the injustice. Or the vice versa (in modern Democracy).

    View B. From God is the varna -- beginning with three basic varnas of White, Red, and Black. And these are contained in Him alone. So, where is varna? There is God alone.

    -----------------

    It is up to the individual ego to understand this way or that way and be responsible for the strifes or for the illumination.

    Regards,

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  4. #24
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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Namaste Saidevo,

    Excellent posts on the first page! I really enjoyed the link to the article about caste. In fact, I have saved it on my PC!

    Subham.

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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Namaste IR.

    I respect your opinions but I have some differences about them:

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    The difference is: this seemingly endless loop is necessary for evolution. Or else, medical marvels wouldn't be possible today. Or political revolutions such as the transition from dictatorship to democracy, the separation of church and state, and the rest. But persisting with caste system has NOT led to any changes for the better. Hence, the comparison doesn't hold good.
    1. Evolution of what? From monkey to humans in form but worse than the wildest, sliest animals in temperament? While I appreciate the comforts provided by science and technology, is anyone satisfied with the luxuries they give? Aren't these luxuries only breeding the six low attitudes--desire, anger, greed, lust, madness, envy--that our scriptures want us to control and avoid for spiritual progress?

    2. Yes there are medical marvels that has prolonged human life, replaced defunct parts and mastered the human body. What is evil about medicine is the money it costs and goes with it.

    Monarchy has worked well in the East and the West in the past, though there were tyrannical kings and queens. It is the wealth and comforts generated by industrialization, science and technology that created the dictators, and it is precisely the unity of the opposite situations in the public that uprooted those monsters and established democracy.

    3. Our scriptures proclaim that the people of all varNas are equal so long as they live their dharma. As I have indicated above, there were absolutely no competition, hatred or enmity among castes originated from the varNas before the British rule as everyone was doing their own business in an atomosphere of amity provided by the Sanskrit education.

    I agree, however, that persisting with the current set up of the caste system with its inequalities can't usher in any good for the society. To remove the feelings of insecurity and inequality, the government should try to create equal opportunities of education and employment that commensurate with the varNas, and exhort people not to be addictive about only the three streams of education and employment. This can be done only if the politicians themselves set an example by not giving their wards creamy and lucrative education and employment.

    When India got independence, Gandhi, Sardar Patel and Aurobindo strongly advocated for a government and administration that was to be in tune with our culture and tradition. It was Nehru, who considered himself the last of the Indian Europeans, who was responsible for the current scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    This is the problem, you see? Not many Hindus are going to believe in scriptures, much less in its supposed flawlessness. Either we should convert them by force, which isn't such a good idea. Or, we must educate them, which is a near impossible task, considering the texts are in Sanskrit. Educating millions in this matter would require enormous amount of time, money, and energy. And quite frankly, it's like fighting a losing battle.
    The Hindus will surely believe the scriptures and take to them, if we have, at least on an experimental basis, model hamlets, villages, and towns populated by people who prefer to lead a life of dharma under the varNa system. These model areas will become havens of peace, happiness and prosperity, right in the middle of the hullabalo of modern life, if they are properly developed.

    In fact in Tamilnadu near Vellore, I read that a project is under implementation, set up by some Brahmins to create ideal 'agrahArams' (brahmin streets) in a large, rural residential area, where people will lead a Vedic life. I understand that land has been bought and booking for plots has started.

    Our ancient and time-honoured culture and tradition today stops at the five star hotels providing traditional cuisine and the western tourists flocking the miniature traditional homes set up by our tourism departments.

    So, if we create opportunies of 'preferences' for people, between the happy and peaceful way of a life dharma and the vice-ridden modern life, at least those with traditional propensities will be at peace. There is no need for forceful conversion or imposition or education of the varNa system. People will eventually learn from and take to the models created.

    Umpteen models are created for experiment and research in science, humanities and arts--the model of the 'big bang' at CERN that has now stopped with a whimper is a case in point. Why can't we create such models for our cultural and traditional life?

    Even in our individual, daily life, we can do something: let us try with all members of our family to live a life of dharma of the varNa we belong to, as best as we can, at least one day in a month. I don't mean the occupation of the varNa here, only the cultivation of qualities of character the varNa dharma teaches. As a common dharma to all of us, we can try to avoid the luxuries of western influence on that day: wear our traditional clothes, take our traditional bath, self-wash our clothes, pray in our traditional ways and times at home, cook our traditional, vegetarian food (better if our women use 'ammi'--grinding stone and roller--instead of the electric mixer), avoid watching TV, even using the computer and the Net, (but I think we can use our cassette and CD players to listen to devotional songs), read our scriptural books--thus spend a day in peace and bliss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    Avoidance of all luxuries of technology and industrialization? We're able to make this statement with the help of technology! Besides, wealth cannot be generated with this attitude.
    I only talked about the 'luxury'--not 'necessaries'--of technology. Yes, I reiterate my statement. No one including the wealthy political and business people all over the world need to lead a life of luxury. There must be system that self-regulates such life. All the wealth created should be used for providing and sustaining the basic amenities of life to everyone all the world over, crossing geographical and political borders. If science and technology can't feed the hungry and poor all over the world and raise their status of life, of what use it is for humanity? Why should its fruits be enjoyed only by the affluent and the greedy? Whatever the political ideology--communism, socialism, free market--that the world governments follow, if democracy cannot ensure basic amenities for everyone, how can it be deemed a successful and effective form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    Since western culture has pervaded almost every country in the world, isn't that evidence that it's superior? And if it's superior to other systems of thought, why can't we embrace it?
    Yes, yes, western culture is 'superior' and people of all the varNas are actively embracing it in India. The aggressiveness and the governmental back up provide no alternatives even for people who have old propensities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    Why must we extend Hinduism to politics as well? Let it be a religion and nothing more.
    Hinduism is not just a religion, it is a way of life, in all areas, and that includes politics. Even during the times of monarchy, sages and rishis have guided the king. In ancient India, there was no separation between the state and religion --it is an unsuccessful western concept--because everyone including the King was bound by the Hindu Dharma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    Put simply, let's be Hindus by religion and westerners by culture. That way, we can keep our glorious traditions alive, plus reap the benefits of a superior western system. We can have the best of both worlds.
    1. If we need to be Hindus, we can't all be westerners by culture! This was why Nehru did not consider himself a Hindu. Already we are MUCH MORE westernized than needed: we enter our temples wearing western clothes, do not remove our socks, our young girls in India and abroad these days don't think it is trendy to wear a bindi on their forehead or a string of flowers to perfume their hair, the Christian schools promptly restrict such cultural activities for their Hindu students, we prefer pop and rock music to our own bhajans and Karnatic music, watch the English movies (I do this a lot these days!), prefer English to our mother tongue even in domestic conversation, consider it civilized to eat beef and pork and drink whisky and beer in pubs and then dance in the discos, and so on and so forth. What more westernanization do you want?

    2. Yes, the sad truth is that we are Hindus by a nominal show of religion and westerners by a pompous show of their culture in ours. Unfortunately, this 'superior' western culture has in no way kept our glorious traiditions alive; it is by our partially reaping the 'benefits of a superior western system' that we are fast losing the best of both worlds.
    Last edited by saidevo; 01 October 2008 at 12:40 AM.

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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    The difference is: this seemingly endless loop is necessary for evolution. Or else, medical marvels wouldn't be possible today. Or political revolutions such as the transition from dictatorship to democracy, the separation of church and state, and the rest. But persisting with caste system has NOT led to any changes for the better. Hence, the comparison doesn't hold good.
    The 'evolution' is needed only for something that is imperfect from the get-go. As Saidevo already stated, VarnAshramA DharmA, as affirmed in the Scriptures, is completely natural! Hence, any change or evolution to the orginal is a corruption of its intial intent & purport.

    Secondly, who is to decide "caste system has NOT led to any changes for the better"? In what situation? In who's perspective? It is in fact ONLY because of the caste system that Hindu society has survived and continues to do so even today!

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    This is the problem, you see? Not many Hindus are going to believe in scriptures, much less in its supposed flawlessness.


    What? The supremacy of the Vedas has never been questioned by any Hindu! Although that sounds like a typical line from an asura like a christian or muslim, Vedas are apaurusheya; that which is not created! That is why our 'religion' is called "Sanatana Dharma"; or timeless order! Unlike the christians/muslims and other asuras, one does not have to 'believe in' the Vedas for its validity. The only time they are questioned are by ignorant people; who have not realized the nature of reality. The Vedas, or any of the other Scriptures, are merely an affirmation of THAT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    Or, we must educate them, which is a near impossible task, considering the texts are in Sanskrit. Educating millions in this matter would require enormous amount of time, money, and energy.


    That is indeed the solution. Physically fighting asuras is futile and that would be a losing battle. The fight must be education to illumine and kindle the interest, understanding, and inspiration in every Hindu on this planet!



    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    Avoidance of all luxuries of technology and industrialization? We're able to make this statement with the help of technology! Besides, wealth cannot be generated with this attitude.


    Although technology is extremely helpful for the 'average' person, it is a hinderance to the sAdhakA; as it draws one outwards. Technology, wealth, power, etc. are inversely proportional to spirituality and the ability to gain an even temperament or as the wise say, "equanimity of mind". I don't think Saidevo ever claimed to be a sage or a renunciate! In fact, most of the original thoughts, ideas, and even inventions have come from India! Without the numeral system, especially ZERO, there would be no computers! Without Baudhayana's Sulba sUtrAs, the binary system would have only been 'discovered' much later or worse.

    With the example I gave before in this forum, "Kobe Bryant should keep playing basketball & Steve Schwarzman should keep managing money; imagine if they traded places!" That would be disastrous! This is the basis of Varna Dharma.

    I suggest you read more about it instead of just arguing inanely about this topic that has already been beaten to death!

    Subham.

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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    -Since western culture has pervaded almost every country in the world, isn't that evidence that it's superior? And if it's superior to other systems of thought, why can't we embrace it?
    Namaste Regress,

    Ya. The truth is that the Eastern contries are subsidizing and sustaining the the so-called superior. And our beloved PM, who has another beloved, is the prop for the sutaining mechanism. He runs here and there so that business elsewhere can flourish and Indians gloat on their accomplishments munching potato chips, sipping soda water and answering calls in BPO with American accents.

    About 20 years back, I reached a destination from my home in about 20 minutes with a pleasant mind intact. Now, it takes 2 and half hours, accompanied with unspeakable language and rage all around.

    This is not progress. This is destruction.
    -----------------

    Sorry for the outburst. It is an expression of a personal discomfort and discontentment.

    The one who is the owner of this Universe knows how to run it.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    chaturvarNayaM maya sRuShtaM guNakarmavibhAgaShaH |
    tasya kartAramapi mAM viddhyakartAramavyayam ||

    "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."

    Namaste Friends,

    The Gita verse and also the one from Purusha Suktam are amenable to two types of views:

    View A. God has instituted the varna system and thus my Brahmana hood and the associated benefits are justified and the status quo should remain. OTOH, a Shudra rebels at the injustice. Or the vice versa (in modern Democracy).

    View B. From God is the varna -- beginning with three basic varnas of White, Red, and Black. And these are contained in Him alone. So, where is varna? There is God alone.

    -----------------


    Regards,

    Om Namah Shivaya
    This small post got lost.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  9. #29

    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Thanks for all your views. It's helped me a great deal.

    All I am saying is: Most Hindus today believe caste system has to become fluid, in that people should be allowed to do what they want. Meaning, if shudra wants to become Brahmin, he must be allowed to do so. But if this happens, caste system would have no meaning.

    OTOH, if the system is kept rigid, problems like reservations crop up, ruining people from all castes, especially the brahmins and forward castes.

    This is what I am wondering about. There seems to be no solution.

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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Namaste Saideo, Atanu, TatTvamAsi & all,

    I think my views are completely different from all of you.

    I will like to say a few things :

    i) Should we accept everything whatever is written in our scriptures without examining whether it is really relevant today or not ?
    ii) Should we accept whatever our predecessors told without keeping in view that things which might be perfectly ok in the past may not be ok in today's environment ?
    iii) Have we not seen many people born in a Brahmin family indulging in abominable tasks ? Are they Brahmins in true sense ?
    iv) By the logic of Saideoji, a Shudra by birth should do the work which was being done by his forefathers (Please correct me, if I am wrong), even if he is par excellence in intelligence & knowledge ? And by the same the logic a Brahmin/Khsatriya by birth who is even incapable of reading & writing should get the highest place in administration ?

    I have no doubt that this is the worst kind of descrimination a policy of apartheid, we are unjustly using against the hapless so called lower-caste people. It is not only against them but it is not healthy for our society & nation as well.

    Social rules should not be guided by the rules of the past. We must see it different from spirituality, the rules of which cannot change. We should not advocate continuity of a wrong system by quoting some scriptures thousands of years old or saying of someone who was born in some remote past. Let's be fair & say, what is the difference in the God which is in the Shudra & that which is in a brahmin ? If we say that God decided a man to give birth in lower caste for doing menial works only then why does he give equally good brains to them too & why he doesn't make all brahmins highly intelligent ? Why the talent is evenly distributed in the society without any cosideration of caste by birth ? If God really wanted this caste by birth system why this knowledge was not given to other majority of Non-Hindu population ?

    This caste by birth system reminds me of cruel thinking in Christianity wherein it was said that teh black people didn't have soul !

    Regards

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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