"I agree. But possibly none can match the brevity of Nuno Matos."
Dear Atanu,
I dont feell the necessity to write large doses of words. And hanuman is faster than a lightning bolt.
Thank you Atanu for the compliment and remenbrance.
New Member
"I agree. But possibly none can match the brevity of Nuno Matos."
Dear Atanu,
I dont feell the necessity to write large doses of words. And hanuman is faster than a lightning bolt.
Thank you Atanu for the compliment and remenbrance.
icchAshaktitamAkUmarI
Originally Posted by yajvan
I don´t think that the topic whether to apply effort or not is at all important when using practices culled from tantras like Vijnanabhairava.
Kaula marga is a very special path only few persons can tread, and it has its own laws, only people with special characteristics will be confronted with the devi and a guru and get shaktipat this will not be the rigid type of arrogant self controlled, usually succesful business people, that have problems with that kind of effort you describe.
And if there are remnants of ego the devotion to guru will absolve you of your ego based idea of "effort"
What is important in tantrokta marga is the guru parampara and the continous practice of the prescribed upasana that is done for devata anugraha, that is the essence of mantra shastra.
Practices like those in Vijanabhairava only bear fruit when the tantrokta nitya karmas are done, because the exercises depend on the basic upasana, they especially depend on presence of ones own acquired shakti by diksha and one´s own effort in japa and puja.
Usually in the course of tantric upasana the shisya will be presented with the special secret krama, of a tradition, this krama is a consecutive course of deities whose upasana must be done in sequence and whose mantras must be mastered one after the other this is centered usually around one central vidya, in the case of trika this cenntral vidya obviously must have been para shakti. But this is guesswork unless we meet a trika teacher and get the trika set of dikshas. Not only are these deities and their mantras kept secret but the whole tradition is also protected by dangerous spiritual beings fierce yoginis bhairavas and other protectors of the kaula dharma, they are also there to prevent that people unfit for these teachings try to receive them.
What i want to say is, even when you are succesful experimenting with tantric practicies on your own, you run into danger if you do not know how to deal with the dangerous protectors should they appear.
Ripped out of the context of the rest of Kaula Dharma and without the upadesha of the Kaula Guru exercises culled out of the context into the open loose their redeeming properties.
In the beginning when i first posted here on this forum i was commenting on parts of the trika shastras but only reluctantly.
Though i have some expertise in tantra shastra, even if i want i see not how i could contribute in a constructive way because i think technical details have to be learnt from a proper guru and face to face, to bring good fruit and not suffering, and are not communicated on the internet.
Most probably people wills start again pelting mental stones at me for having written that, but i think i will have to live with that or shut up once and for all.
Last edited by MahaHrada; 12 December 2008 at 06:13 AM.
Member
Namaste MahaHrada,
No. You have written this nicely and with care. It is acceptable to me sans your above fear. Stones that we fear are our own. I wish to point out that your statements, such as cited below, helps to add to your fears of stones etc.
I do not want to add to this theoretical discussion, which would mean only adding to this confusion
No grudges.
Om Namah Shivaya
Last edited by atanu; 12 December 2008 at 08:50 AM. Reason: Our stones
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Member
Dear Nuno,
Genuinely, I will try to emulate you in this matter.
Regards.
Om
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
etad vai tat
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
Namaste atanu, MahaHrada, Nuno (et.al)
thank you for your contributions and positions you have offered. As I see it the conversation is to advance one's understanding by comparing and contrasting the knowledge and /or the ideas we hold.
I also find it worthy of merit to offer the experiences one brings to the discussion.
Again my orientation and offer was about 'effort and time commitments' - these have been duly offered from the knowledge, teachings, and experience I have been afforded. If others differ then I am in hopes it too is from these 3 levels or abilities aforementioned.
Regarding dangers. I have not experienced what you have offered , yet do not suggest this may not occur. This conversation of 'danger' also arises when we talk of siddhi's.
Some months back ( Perhaps 6 to 8) when others also participated in the siddhi discussion it was in vogue for all to concur that it is 'dangerous', yet not one person stepped forward to say ' I practice this and speak from experience ' either for-or-against the notion.
I mention this as fact and not to find fault - we are all here to advance our undersanding (I believe) , so open ( civil) conversations are always welcomed. Yet at the time no one asked , yajvan why do you think that siddhi pursuit is reasonable? of merit? It seemed a most obvious question to ask, but it did not arise - only the dogma of 'don't do that'.
My offer and position was due to my instruction, dīksa, teaching, etc. that I spoke, yet it fell on deaf ears, the same ears that perhaps did not pratice siddhi-s or even dhyāna.
So why mention this? I like to pursue and find value in conversations that matter - where it's okay to discuss, probe, look, see, contrast and see how perhaps the cream rises to the top. That the conversations have some basis, experience if possible, and where one may learn a bit, or leave their ego's at the door and say I just do not know. I am not inferring anying here ( my ego can most assurdly be left at the door and try to put this to practice).
On that note MahaHrada your posts are valuable and hope you continue to write, offer insights and take us to new ideas. Nuno your questions are often terse and to the point, and provokes more thinking for us - this is a good thing. And atanu - your breath of knowledge and your patience with all of us is refreshing - we are rewarded with your posts.
That said, I do not take this wisdom lightly and share ( and or probe) to perhaps move the conversation forward or provoke a conversation that may benefit others. Yet the benefits go to both the listener and the offerer - the measurer and the measured. My teacher always told us, 'the teacher gains more then the student' - this I can see work.
There are those that truly have interest and there are those that look to find mischief ( present company excluded). I prefer to offer the knowledge for those that wish to move their knowledge forward. For this, we take care in what we say, and position the knowledge accordingly. If further (deeper interest) is there, I have found people contact the author directly and further discussions are had one-on-one. I have had many conversations via email of this type i.e. further, deeper, etc. Hence, I think people here understand that some things need a more personal touch. I am open to this.
pranams
Last edited by yajvan; 12 December 2008 at 04:45 PM.
यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
Member
Namaste yajvan ji,
I do not exactly remember the discussion on dangers, so I thought why not take a fresh overview?
I do not think that you can expect anyone practising the vidyas to come and precisely explain the dangers since as MahaHrada says that those are guarded secrets for welfare of all.
Possibly, I can offer a general view.
All of us in this world are pursuing Siddhi Sadhana without knowing the strength and power of consciousness. We wish for/desire certain outcome and depending on the strength of the desire, the consciousness helps to fructify the desire sooner or later. In a bull run (lucky phase), the results make us happy, gloated with ego and surprisingly also very fearful. What if tommorrow a Tiger comes and eats up everything? And lo, the negative vibes now begin to fructify.
A knowledgable sadhaka is many times more powerful, yet is just a speck of dust to the dictates of Kala. His consequences are far more dangerous. And Ego here is also likely to be far more stronger (in absence of knowledge of Brahman). In absence of a pure Guru, the sadhana can bring untold misery to self and to others -- especially if the sadhaka is yet to purify his own instincts and has envy and pre-dilection to harm others, dictated by envy and jealousy. Imagine how dangerous a mix malice and Siddhi power together will make.
Some Gurus do not prescribe such sadhana simply because of the following:
Svetasvatara UpanishadWhen men shall roll up space as if it were a piece of hide, then there will be an end of misery without one’s cultivating the Knowledge of the Lord, who is without parts, without actions, tranquil, blameless, unattached, the supreme bridge to Immortality, and like a fire that has consumed all its fuel.Lord is the fire that has consumed all its fuel. Whereas desire for siddhi is a big fuel. The goal should be Lord and not the fuel. It is said in Puranas that it is Shiva who only has the power to keep all dangerous siddhis as His consorts, simply because He is Shiva -- the pure one.
I agree with MahaHrada that guidance of a pure Guru is always required. But my Guru simply teaches that leave all desires to God and keep the mind as close to Him as possible and this way all dangers are kept at bay. What harm can come, if the desire is God Himself? Moreover, the practice to keep the mind close to Heart, near God, does protect one from the tendency of mind fancying good or bad fruits.
Hope that this offers some food for consideration.
Om Namah Shivaya
Om
Last edited by atanu; 13 December 2008 at 03:29 AM.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Member
Namaste Yajvan Ji,
It would be injustice if I did not speak a few words on this. You are good, so you see Good. The Universe is good for you since you are good, having passed through forms of fire called Rahu Dasha and Jupiter Dasha already (and of course all your past samskaras).
Speaking of dangers, I would like to relate an understanding.
Some time back, a highly respected religious leader of India went through great trouble. He was sent to prison on the allegation of a murder. The great Guru said sadly "I have not commited it but once a thought had arisen in me that this pest should be removed. That was the sin."
This eternal Lord, the fire that has all fuels consumed, is great beauty and purity when it lights up pure sattwa guna and the same Lord is terrific and destructive when it lights up an evil thought.
May we all pray to Him to instigate us all with pure thoughts and pure acts only. May we also pray for enough strength to bear the Prarabdha of the self and all others that the self cognises.
Regards
Om Namah Shivaya
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
etad vai tat
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
Namaste atanu,
thank you for taking the time to collect your thoughts and express them succinctly. You mention a few things, and if I may let me comment without being too verbose.
I do not think that you can expect anyone practising the vidyas to come and precisely explain the dangers since as MahaHrada says that those are guarded secrets for welfare of all.Yes, I see your point.
also
Lord is the fire that has consumed all its fuel. Whereas desire for siddhi is a big fuel. The goal should be Lord and not the fuel.
Yes, this is exactly the point to be discussed.
The focus is on the Supreme. Now that said, if one pursues only for siddhi-s then some mischief may occur - with the following taken into consideration and is the crux of my POV:
What am I saying? The process ( listed below) is a filtering/cleansing process to remove tamasic and rajasic tendencies i.e. remove mala-s ( impurities).
- Siddhi-s can develop quite naturally during ones sādhana as a matter of course. How one handles it is up to them. Yet if one wishes to develop these skills then purification is required .
- Though purification one's intent and ultimately desires are modified and changed. The infusion of sattva takes place and one's initial desires that may be only of siddhi-pursuit expands to anuttara ( Supreme) pursuit of ātmavyāpti¹ and śivavyāpti¹ ( accomplishment/unfoldment of ātma and accomplishment/unfoldment of śiva). That is the beauty of the process. A self-correcting model that takes small-small ego based desires and expands them to the greatest good.
What is the purification tools? dhyāna ,prānāyāma, dhāranā, pratyāhāra, samādhi ( I will be happy to define these yet think the reader has seen these words before). I call these out as they are the components of saṁyama¹, needed for siddhi development.
Another point - According to the Yogadarśana of Patañjali these siddhi-s can also be aquired by potions - this I have never seen. Yet if this occurs , then the purification process is usurped and the cleansing does not occur - here is where I see mischief occurring. Patañjali points out that siddhi-s may be impediments, yet also sees them as accomplishment and a milestone of cetana¹-development.
From a kaśmir śaivism point of view it is the concept/practice/progress that āṇavopāya¹ leads to śāktopāya that too beings one to śāmbhavopāya - a progression for the sādhu. Yet one can start the journey from any of these upāya-s mentioned pending one's capacity and capability i.e. are the facilities there to start at that point.
So, siddhi is a tool that in the end is discarded. The beauty is in the 'gates' that must be opened that purify the sādhu. There is a view from Śrī Lakṣmī Kaukārṇava Tantra that svāmī Lakṣman-jū quotes that supports your position atanu, that of focusing on the Supreme - The one who is directed towards these limited yogic powers is carried away from the consciousness of the Lord (śivavyāpti) and is not capable of experiencing His nature.
Yet svāmī Lakṣman-jū reminds the reader that for the yogī who is no longer bonded to mala-s the same yogic exercises i.e. dhyāna ,prānāyāma, dhāranā, pratyāhāra and samādhi, is not gripped by the limited yogic powers i.e. siddhi.
Now the question to our conversation becomes - is this discussion for the rank-&-file, or for the sādhu in search of unfolding the Supreme? For the rank-&-file that may see siddhi-s as a passing fancy there is one conversation. Yet for the sādhu interested in kevala it is quite another. Perhaps my fault is to view those here on HDF as the serious śiṣya? Perhaps this is my blemish.
pranams
words
- ātmavyāpti - ātma आत्मन् (ātman) - the SELF, essence (sāram) of Being (sattā) + vyāpti व्याप्ति acquisition , attainment , accomplishment i.e. inseparable presence
- śivavyāpti - śiva शिव the Supreme (anuttara) unsurpassable + vyāpti व्याप्ति acquisition , attainment , accomplishment i.e.
- cetana¹ - consciousness, understanding, sense, or intelligence
- More on anavopaya¹saktopaya & sambhavopaya see HDF post # 2 and #4 at http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2323
- saṁyama संयम holding together; More on this at HDF post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...hlight=samyama
- kevala केवल - not connected with anything else , uncompounded i.e. liberation
Last edited by yajvan; 13 December 2008 at 04:12 PM. Reason: added a post HDF address
यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
Member
Namaste Yajvan Ji,
My understanding is same as yours on this matter. It is a dynamic ladder and not a static ladder. Aspirants are at various accrued levels of maturation gained over many lives. One who has clearly surmised that Lord alone is the Happiness has only Lord as the goal, knowing that Lord has nothing comparable to Him. One who has no doubt on this issue is never in any danger, except occassional hurdles on account of Prarabdha or on account of test of perseverance.
There is clear instruction that one who has for his goal the Self, Lord and only Lord, all procedural dharmas are immaterial.
Sarvadharmaan parityajya maamekam sharanam vraja;Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyaami maa shuchah.There is never any danger to the meditator performing malice free meditation on pure Lord. The above is a guarantee from the Lord.
Om Namah Shivaya
Last edited by atanu; 14 December 2008 at 09:11 AM.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
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