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Thread: stopping the movement of the chitta: the same as ignorance?

  1. #11
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    Re: stopping the movement of the chitta: the same as ignorance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuno Matos View Post
    Namaste all,


    I have bin following this tread with entusiasm and it seems to me a very interesting subject to meditate about.
    I think the problem is not with chitta in on itself but with its vrittis. I remember reading Sri Nisargadatta on the subject of reason and Sri Ranjit as well and they both stated that in the last level of sahmadi i.e. turya, reason is reaveled as one with reality. Still thought, they say ( do not confuse with stilled thought wich is pratyahara or yama deva, in itself a the big " Vritti " )!
    I think this process is well understood for the ones who had some Raja Yoga experience of meditation in a sense that flows from the abstract (kramAnyatvam parinAmAnyatve hetuh) caos into the stilness of the name.
    What do you think about that?
    Namaste and Welcome Nuno,

    Yes, it is called chittavritti which is the problem, simply stated it is the tendencies of the mind that pull it here and there. It is said that the mind in itself is Sattwa. You bring out a very fine point, when you say that Pratyahara itself is a thought.

    Yes. See man is Manas, a mind. A man can do as far as the mind takes it. A man can try best to do Pratayahara again and again and when the mind goes out then pray to God, "This separation is painful, now do your part Lord".

    It is said that the mind should do its part.

    Regards

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: stopping the movement of the chitta: the same as ignorance?

    Namaste Atanu,

    Thanks for very valuable information on meditation in this thread.

    Regards,

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: stopping the movement of the chitta: the same as ignorance?

    There is a lot of confusion about what the meditative stages of Yoga: Pratyahara, Dharana, Dhyana, and Samadhi mean. I do not want to add to this theoretical discussion, which would mean only adding to this confusion, but i add a practical hint, mentioning the time needed for establishment of the mind in these stages according to Yoga Darshana, thereby providing you with some sort of reality check.

    Pratyahara stage is accomplished when the mind is turned inward for 10 minutes.
    Dharana stage is 12 Pratyahara units equaling 2 hours uninterrupted focussing of the mind
    Dhyana stage is accomplished after 12 Dharana units that adds up to 24 Hours of uninteruppted focussing of the mind on its object.
    Samadhi stage is reached, according to the yoga shastras after accomplishing 12 Dhyana time units, that means 12 whole days and nights of uninterrupted flow of mind on one object.

    I know nowadays people belive they can reach samadhi or turiya in 10 minutes, and i am happy for them that they reached their goal so easy. But i cannot comment on practices like that, because i dont know much about it and i do not have practical experience with these modern teachings or practices, and don´t know what this instant samadhi is supposed to be.

    I am refering here only to the more ancient teachings of the Yoga Shastras, to the Yoga that was taught by Shiva Adinath and was put into practice by Siddhas like shri Matsyendranatha, shri Gorakhanatha and shri Dattatreya the original Gurus of the ancient Yoga sampradaya of the Siddha mata.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 05 December 2008 at 12:30 PM.

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    Talking Re: stopping the movement of the chitta: the same as ignorance?

    Namaste Mahahrada,


    According to Patanjali the only precondition for meditative acomplishement is that the position should be " steady and confortable " in order to win over the twin game of contrarys.
    If you are going to get stuked on time ( Kala & Maya ) probably you are going to do if not already doing some time on a maximum security twilight home ( a patala called prison self ).
    Last edited by Nuno Matos; 07 December 2008 at 12:59 PM.

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    Re: stopping the movement of the chitta: the same as ignorance?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    Namaste

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuno Matos View Post
    If you are going to get stuked on time ( Kala & Maya ) probably you are going to do if not already doing some time on a maximum security twilight home ( a patala called prison self ).
    It is my humble opinion that if one considers the clock then it too becomes a thing the mind goes to and diverts ones dhāraṇā¹.
    When in practice of ekāgratā or one-pointedness (with effort) and the clock/time is considered, then the mind will say 'humm- wonder what time it is ' and another distraction is offered. For some new to meditation and dhāraṇā they may think something different : ' ohhh - there is just X more hours left and then samādhi will arrive ' . Both approaches causes mischief.

    Yet for the sādhu that may transcend and be emersed in the state of Being (sattā) there is no time… hours feel like minutes. What then will the clock offer for him/her?

    So what does one do? A simple matter of intent. The intent to meditate for N minutes ( some use muhūrta¹ timing) and then begin.

    pranams

    words
    • dhāraṇā धारणा the act of holding , bearing , wearing , supporting , maintaining, retaining i.e. undistracted practice.
    • sādhu साधु - leading or going straight to the goal; sādhu can be man of woman.
    • muhūrta मुहूर्त - is 1/30th of the day or 48 minutes; some may use this in mutiples or as fractions of muhūrta for meditating time periods.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: stopping the movement of the chitta: the same as ignorance?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    Namaste



    It is my humble opinion that if one considers the clock

    These timings are not meant to indicate the time you set apart for meditation, but the time you are in the state of complete one pointed flow of attention towards a choosen object.

    That means all that is left in your awareness is the object- no other awareness- not of your body- no awareness of your breath -no input through the senses, nothing- except the object, not even awareness that you are meditating.

    That means one can sit 10 hours and yet not arrive at achieving pratyahara because 10 minutes of constant flow toward one object and one object only, without a single distraction, not even awareness of self, not even for a short time like the blink of an eye is quite hard to achieve.

    Thats why there are other Angas of Yoga (yama niyama asana and pranayama) that minimise the possibility of distraction, by desires or sensual input or body awareness, before pratyahara is practiced.

    In the case of pratyahara the one object of meditation is the act of shutting out all outward sense inputs, i.e. inward turning or reversal of sense activity, causing also a reversal of prana in the nadis that flow towards the sense organs, later one can also reverse the flow of prana to achive sense isolation by the act of will.

    Only if this is achieved other objects that are suitable for the stage of dharana are choosen as objects in the inner space.

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    Re: stopping the movement of the chitta: the same as ignorance?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~



    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    That means one can sit 10 hours and yet not arrive at achieving pratyahara because 10 minutes of constant flow toward one object and one object only, without a single distraction, not even awareness of self, not even for a short time like the blink of an eye is quite hard to achieve.
    Namaste,
    If you are suggesting or alluding to 'quite hard to achieve' is equal to effort, then I agree. Effort is one more 'event' that stops the native from easily settling into ones routine , into ekāgrata ( one-pointed ness).

    It has been my observation that many people stop sādhana due to not knowing how to be effortless ( or at least less intense). We are groomed by society (IMO) to be assertive, forward, achievement based. When it comes to sādhana with meditation, it is the delicate approach that brings fruit.

    What one needs comfort with is prayatnaḥ sādhakāḥ as mentioned in the Śiva sūtra-s (chapt 2.2) - pause-less effort that brings one to the level of Being. Holding the beginning point ( some like to call this anusaṁdhitsā) with awareness. This brings about the union of the worshipper (meditator) and the worshipped ( pure consciousness).

    pranams
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #18
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    Re: stopping the movement of the chitta: the same as ignorance?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~




    Namaste,
    If you are suggesting or alluding to 'quite hard to achieve' is equal to effort, then I agree. Effort is one more 'event' that stops the native from easily settling into ones routine , into ekāgrata ( one-pointed ness).

    It has been my observation that many people stop sādhana due to not knowing how to be effortless ( or at least less intense). We are groomed by society (IMO) to be assertive, forward, achievement based. When it comes to sādhana with meditation, it is the delicate approach that brings fruit.

    What one needs comfort with is prayatnaḥ sādhakāḥ as mentioned in the Śiva sūtra-s (chapt 2.2) - pause-less effort that brings one to the level of Being. Holding the beginning point ( some like to call this anusaṁdhitsā) with awareness. This brings about the union of the worshipper (meditator) and the worshipped ( pure consciousness).

    pranams
    I have not experienced that too much effort is an hindrance in Yoga quite to the contrary. I have only seen lack of effort and endurance as problems. Eventually conscious effort will become natural. Too much theories will only confuse the practice. So whether with or without effort the main thing is to keep up the practice.

    Shiva sutras do speak of effort as the best means to achive the goal. My translation dont say pause less, just effort. This is about a swift effort.

    But unrelated to the topic of Hatha Yoga and the anga sequence of sadhana. This is about tantrokta mantra shastra a section concerning the indestructible body.

    cittam mantrah

    The mind is mantra

    1/1

    prayatnah sAdhakah

    Effort is that which attains the goal

    2/2

    The topic of these verses is in a nutshell realisation of that subtle body that is consisting of mantra and its identity with Shiva being engaged in inward turning of the mind.
    A secret practice i think that cannot be done without guidance and shaktipat -diksha of a guru of a respective sampradaya, very loosely connected with pratyahara i will add some comment elucidating what i think is the right kind of effort:
    sritantrasadbhava is quoted in the commentary:
    O dear one just like a bird of prey glimpsing in the sky a piece of meat, quickly catches it with the speed natural to it, so should the best of yogis catch hold of the light of consciousness. Just like an arrow fixed to a bow and drawn with great force flies forth, so oh beloved does bindu fly forward by the force of awareness.
    Bhaskara adds in his commentary to the siva sutra that effort directed to penetrate into the mind is the most excellent means to realise the cittatva (true principle) of the self and that the required force of effort is generated by repeated meditations. What that means is that effort if repeated will become a part of ones nature. This describes the correct kind of effort.

  9. #19
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    Re: stopping the movement of the chitta: the same as ignorance?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    Namaste

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    I have not experienced that too much effort is an hindrance in Yoga quite to the contrary... I. What that means is that effort if repeated will become a part of one´s nature. This describes the correct kind of effort.
    Perhaps the opinions are based upon one's point of view.

    As I see it, being regular with one's practice is good - this can be called effort ( by me); Yet when effort and trying is introduced into the meditative process , I find this causes strain. What do I mean by this? Let me over-amplify my point - "I must settle down the down the mind - why is it so unruly - I must keep my attention on this bīja..mind stop wondering, body sit straight! "

    This is the effort I am alluding to. Effort one associates with lifting a rock , or the rigor of a football player, the effort to hit hard. This I have found and been taught plays no role when looking to settle down the mind.

    Perhaps you are aware of techniques where this approach bears fruit? I know of only one called out in Vijñāna Bhairava where the kārikā suggests viewing stillness in an agitated state.
    This, I know is not your point on effort, yet I call it out where effort does not bear the desired results, and perhaps one could still take advantage of the agitation to experience madhya¹.

    I am not sure if we are in any disagreement - I am just cautious on the wrong effort applied. I have been taught that the Supreme cannot be awakened/experienced/unfolded with force.

    It is the 'churning' of ever-fresh awareness - some call fresh sparks of awareness - this is the POV of ajapa meditation the yields results. The spark of awareness fades on its own, and it is refreshed by the sādhu to start the churning again.

    Let me end by saying, I am not suggesting or inferring a lack of discipline is in order. If you are equating effort to discipline then I too concur. Discipline gives one continunity of practice, Yet if discipline is applied to whipping the mind, and overt control of it , I do not concur.

    pranams
    words
    • Madhya मध्य - standing between two , impartial , neutral; being of a middle kind or size or quality
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: stopping the movement of the chitta: the same as ignorance?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    Let me end by saying, I am not suggesting or inferring a lack of discipline is in order. If you are equating effort to discipline then I too concur. Discipline gives one continunity of practice, Yet if discipline is applied to whipping the mind, and overt control of it , I do not concur.
    Namaste Yajvan,

    I agree. But possibly none can match the brevity of Nuno Matos.

    (No one denies that discipline is the key requirement but it is also true that many varieties of men are taught many varieties of discipline regimes and different people are invariably at different evolutionary levels. For one person Pranayama may be required before any tranquility is attained and for another person a small remembrance of Lord may be sufficient. And there may be others who may be so immature that Pranayama or any other technique will not give them any benefit. Some of those who will hold rigidly that all other ways are inferior to their preferred way may go on to become terrorists).

    There is a story in south indian Shiva lore about Sundara and another hard liner Shiva Bhakta, who maintained the notion that Shiva has taught only one way and that his preferred way is that only one way. Finally Shiva gave him a lesson lovingly that all paths are Shiva's paths and He alone is the leader of all paths.


    The goal is the "the Lord, who is without parts, without actions, tranquil, blameless, unattached, the supreme bridge to Immortality, and like a fire that has consumed all its fuel".

    Svetasvatara Upanishad
    When men shall roll up space as if it were a piece of hide, then there will be an end of misery without one’s cultivating the Knowledge of the Lord, who is without parts, without actions, tranquil, blameless, unattached, the supreme bridge to Immortality, and like a fire that has consumed all its fuel.
    It may occur as dissapointment to some that the goal is the fire that has consumed all its fuel. And it may be impossible also to attain the Lord who is without parts and without actions, by clinging as a part and by holding on to various notions of actions to the point of aversion and derision of paths that are apparently alien to one's preferred path.

    Om Namah Shivaya


    PS: Even the sleep comes only when the fire that consumes all its fuel
    Last edited by atanu; 11 December 2008 at 10:08 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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