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Thread: New and becoming disheartened

  1. #51

    Re: New and becoming disheartened

    Namaste Sudarshan,

    quite informative post on nature of karma and role of god in karma.
    I think the idea that God cannot take the burden of our karma is the most stunning and different idea of hinduism or dharma per say which seperates us from abrahamism. thus our actions become so important and god cannot save from fruits of what we have done.

    Anyway my Q is whether Drita = Prarabdha
    and adrita=Kriyaman + sanchita??

  2. #52
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    Re: New and becoming disheartened

    Quote Originally Posted by Singhi Kaya
    Namaste Sudarshan,

    quite informative post on nature of karma and role of god in karma.
    I think the idea that God cannot take the burden of our karma is the most stunning and different idea of hinduism or dharma per say which seperates us from abrahamism. thus our actions become so important and god cannot save from fruits of what we have done.
    You are perfectly right. If the God so described as All Merciful and All powerful were true, what prevents God from giving instant salvation to everybody this very minute? God can do anything the devotee wants, there are no limitations, but the moment you set the limitation through your own Karma(or ego), the All powerful God is no longer so from your perspective.

    Anyway my Q is whether Drita = Prarabdha
    and adrita=Kriyaman + sanchita??
    Nope, Drida and Adrida Karma are not directly related to sancita or prArabdha karmas. A part of the sancita karma becomes the prArabdha for this birth, and it consists of both Drida and Adita Karmas.

    Drida Karma is an irrevocable Karma except through the fire of Jnana or the Yogic(divine) touch. No amount of prayers(from the plane of pure dualty) is going to prove useful for this kind of Karma. If a person is born blind , and is a great devotee of God, he obviously has committed some serious Drida Karma to deserve this.

    Adrita Karma are those that are reversible. Minor sins and sins commited unknowingly or out of compulsion fall in this category. By sincere devotion to God, or by selfless action( even by an atheist) can reverse this kind of Karma.

    If you kill a person in cold blood in a former birth, you will endure the effects no matter if you are devotee or not. God is not responsible for your actions at all. The scripture is harsh at places due to pure compassion towards us, and to prevent future problems for us. Those who flout the laws of scripture according to their self styled interpretations and do wicked acts will pay the penalty some day - God does nothing in this regard.

    Good actions have to be sacrificed to God, else you will be born again and again to enjoy the fruits of these actions. Bad actions have to choked in their tracks, failing which the only way is to endure the after effects barring some unusual divine grace.

    Great devotees of God always sacrifice the fruits of good actions voluntarily and have zero balance in their Karma bank. Bad Karmas cannot be sacrificed to God( that would be fun!), so a pure devotee of God has only bad karma in his karmic debt. Other people always have mixture of good and bad Karmas. For this reason, great devotees of God appear to suffer more than others, due to lack of any good Karmas to protect them. However, while the former category would continue to pile up the Karma over successive incarnations, the Bhakta is liberated upon the depletion of these bad karmas.

    The incarnations preceding a devotee's salvation are generally filled with misery for this reason. In all likely hood, such a person is able to comunicate with God and has divine perception to some extent - and hence is able to silently endure these bad effects.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  3. #53

    Re: New and becoming disheartened

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan


    But that is a fictitious imagination about God. We do not know God outside the scripture....and the scripture is quite clear about the nature of God - .
    Namaste Sudarshan

    Where do you think God was before the scriptures were written? How did man know him then? Or did he have to wait for the scriptures to be written before he could know God? That's not my view...or my experience.

    Secondly, I am not making fun of Vedic ritual. I would never dream of doing such a thing as the Vedas is my life. The core four books of the Vedas (Rig, Atharva, Sama etc) contain the spiritual teachings from which Hinduism is descended. I cannot claim to have read them of all, but I've read a lot of them and in what I've read, I've not come across this idea of paying a priest to get the gods to make you rich. I think it's a comparitively modern idea.

    Of course I am subject to karma. I am here, aren't I, and not living with the Lord in the Vaikunta. However, you can still experience devotion, even in this imperfect state. Devotion is when you love God above everything else.

    I also didn't say "mere praying to God." will rescue you from the wheel of karma. Praying to God is useless unless you feel it sincerely in your heart and act it out in your life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan
    The rituals DONT burn the seed of Karma, as explained earlier. They only enable you to exchange the temporary suffering in exchange for a good Karma. It gives you the breather time in which you can realize God.
    I know that's what your religion tells you. But temporary or not, I just happen not to believe it and in fact, I think it's a scandalous lie. All religions lie in some way or another, and this is one example. You don't need a breather from poverty to realise God, even if this ritual could obtain that for you, which it can't. If that was the case, all the millionaires in the world would be God-realised Brahmins and all those who live in poverty would be demons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan
    You have failed to realize that the greatest of devotees of God have suffered intolerably and often more than others. The quality of life is not governed at all by devotion - it is governed solely by past Karma.
    Do you think that God would allow his beloved devotee to suffer anymore than is absolutely necessary, to allow that devotee to burn the seeds of their karma and be united with him? God loves his devotee so much he will sometimes even take on that devotee's karma in order to speed their return home to Him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan
    Many devotees have been tortured so much into taking their own lives. God never interferes in our worldly life and Karma except under extraordinary circumstances. He is very good at what he is best at - granting salvation.

    What do you think salvation is? It's rescuing the devotee from the Wheel of Karma!
    True devotion comes from being in love with God. It's a real experience. Those who take their own lives are obviously misunderstandng or perhaps trapped by their ego's understanding of devotion. When you truly love God, your ego disappears. [/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan
    The rest of the worldly affairs is under the jurisdiction of the Lord of Justice - Lord Yamaraja, who is more fair and impartial than any other judge in the world. If you sow, so shall you reap.
    Lord Yamaraja is God's servant and he cannot, and will not, touch the devotee of God without God's permission. God is not remote to us. He is not someone we need a holier-than-us intermediary to reach. That's just what the priests tell us, to keep the dakshinas rolling in.
    Last edited by Gill Harley; 28 June 2006 at 09:43 AM.
    Gill

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    Re: New and becoming disheartened

    namaste!

    Sudharshan my dear friend,
    You have said a lot here and I can not pretend to comprehend all of the knowledge you have imparted but would like to share some of my own thoughts.

    Let’s look at what Bhagwan Krishn has to say as far devotion and devotee is concerned:

    Chapter 12 Shloka 6, 7, 8, 12 and 20

    ye tu sarvani karmani
    mayi sannyasya mat-parah
    ananyenaiva yogena
    mam dhyayanta upasate

    tesam aham samuddharta
    mrtyu-samsara-sagarat
    bhavami na cirat partha
    mayy avesita-cetasam

    mayy eva mana adhatsva
    mayi buddhim nivesaya
    nivasisyasi mayy eva
    ata urdhvam na samsayah

    ye tu dharmamrtam idam
    yathoktam paryupasate
    sraddadhana mat-parama
    bhaktas te 'tiva me priyah

    I ask you to look up the meaning of ‘paryupasat’ and sraddadhana mat-parama.

    Gil, BYS and ThouArt

    I request you three to read this passage in gita and see how bhagwan has instructed us to proceed in matters of sacrifices.

    Chapter 17, Shloka 13

    vidhi-hinam asrstannam
    mantra-hinam adaksinam
    sraddha-virahitam yajnam
    tamasam paricaksate
    satay

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    Re: New and becoming disheartened

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley
    Namaste Sudarshan

    Where do you think God was before the scriptures were written? How did man know him then? Or did he have to wait for the scriptures to be written before he could know God? That's not my view...or my experience.
    FYI, scriptures were never written. They simply exist. (atleast orally)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley
    Secondly, I am not making fun of Vedic ritual. I would never dream of doing such a thing as the Vedas is my life. The core four books of the Vedas (Rig, Atharva, Sama etc) contain the spiritual teachings from which Hinduism is descended. I cannot claim to have read them of all, but I've read a lot of them and in what I've read, I've not come across this idea of paying a priest to get the gods to make you rich. I think it's a comparitively modern idea.
    We have many problems in worldly life. It is not just becoming rich. There is a special Puja called Satya Narayana Puja that can prevent a divorce between a couple who are on the verge of separation. I have personally seen this Puja taking effect in my family. You cannot simply reduce every thing to some imagined version of religion.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley
    Of course I am subject to karma. I am here, aren't I, and not living with the Lord in the Vaikunta. However, you can still experience devotion, even in this imperfect state. Devotion is when you love God above everything else.
    How can you love God above everything when you do not even know that God exists? That is called blind faith. Bhakti is Jnana and Jnana is Bhakti - one has no meaning without the other. In Srivaishnavism, devotion or love in the convensntional sense is called only as Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga is the vision of God is samAdhi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley
    I know that's what your religion tells you. But temporary or not, I just happen not to believe it and in fact, I think it's a scandalous lie. All religions lie in some way or another, and this is one example.
    These rituals all have basis in the vedas. Why dont you simply state that you do not beleive fully in the vedas without introducing the word "scandalous lie". Westerners do have the habit of having their imagined version of Hinduism and then shouting at other Hindus. Vedas are not pieces of work where you accept a part and reject whatever does not make sense to you. As I have mentioned before, the Karma Kanda is not meant for mumukshus. It is meant for people who still have worldly desires and have not moved fully into spiritualism.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harvey
    Do you think that God would allow his beloved devotee to suffer anymore than is absolutely necessary, to allow that devotee to burn the seeds of their karma and be united with him? TGod loves his devotee so much he will sometimes even take on that devotee's karma in order to speed their regturn home to him.
    I have mentioned the reason and will post again:

    "Great devotees of God always sacrifice the fruits of good actions voluntarily and have zero balance in their Karma bank. Bad Karmas cannot be sacrificed to God( that would be fun!), so a pure devotee of God has only bad karma in his karmic debt. Other people always have mixture of good and bad Karmas. For this reason, great devotees of God appear to suffer more than others, due to lack of any good Karmas to protect them. However, while the former category would continue to pile up the Karma over successive incarnations, the Bhakta is liberated upon the depletion of these bad karmas.

    The incarnations preceding a devotee's salvation are generally filled with misery for this reason. In all likely hood, such a person is able to comunicate with God and has divine perception to some extent - and hence is able to silently endure these bad effects."


    I have not heard of God taking on the Karma himself, and you are free to show a pramANA in its favour. Dont talk about God's love in this context please. I demand to know why the soul which is considered to be divine has ever landed in samsAra first. Answer this question first and then we can explore that part of love further. I gave you the reason -God is just above all. Love for God means love for all. The love for all comes when you see God in all. That is the point for experienceing God's love. Can you really love everyone equally without actually seeing God everywhere?( not just beleiving God to be everywhere)



    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harvey
    Lord Yamaraja is God's servant and he cannot, and will not, touch the devotee of God without God's permission. God is not remote to us. He is not someone we need a holier-than-us intermediary to reach. That's just what the priests tell us, to keep the dakshinas rolling in.
    Yamaraja needs no permission. If you do some bad Karma, you are under his jurisdiction and will be subject to his punishments. We can easily verify this in practice. You might be very good or great now, but your past Karma is still there. Do you even understand that Hinduism says in unequivocal terms that our bondage has been there from an infinite past and not for a past few years? There is something more to moksha than you will ever care to understand. If God's love were ideal, no one could still be in bondage after an infinite duration. ( OK, atleast several thousands of millions of years). It is very certain that God allows full freedom to the forces of Karma until you obtain perfection. If there were the slightest of short cuts, not a single soul would be in bondage now, given that we have had millions of opportunities in the past.

    You are still confusing moksha with wordly deals. To a mumukshu, the Karma Kanda is not necessary. To a sanyasin, it is not. For the rest, this is all valid. I dont care to keep responding to these charges of deceit.

    I confess that I am not a true mumukshu. I will seek a lawyer if I am arrested. I will take medcines if I get sick. I will kill my enemy for self defence. These are not activities of true mumukshus. If you are uppto this level and have completely surendered to God for everything, I agree that God will take care of your everything.
    Last edited by Sudarshan; 28 June 2006 at 10:16 AM.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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    Re: New and becoming disheartened

    After I posted those verses, I remembered this one...

    Chapter 18 Shloka 66

    sarva-dharman parityajya
    mam ekam saranam vraja
    aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
    moksayisyami ma sucah

    !!!
    Darn it Bhagwan, make up your friggin mind!! U want us to perform sacrifices or abadon them!!

    satay

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    Re: New and becoming disheartened

    Hey you guys!
    You need to calm down a bit and take a deep breath.

    No vedic rituals are a lie and no, the dakshina tradition is not a lie either. Guru Dakshina and dakshina to a pundit has been a part of the hindu religion from the beginning. For example, if you accept someone as a guru (even if he doesn't know that you have accepted him as your guru) you must give out guru dakshnia and the same goes to the dakshina for the priest who performed puja for you.

    There is no ifs and buts about it. If you don't want the knowledge of the guru then don't accpet him, if you don't want the puja performed then don't. But if you must do these two things (or one) there is a 'price' to be paid. In mahabharat (what was that guy's name?) a sishya cuts off his thumb and presents it to guru dhrona since dhrona demanded it as a dakshina! I would have done the same as that shishya did!!

    If you have accepted someone as you guru be it bhagwan himself or a human being on this earth and if that guru asks for your head in guru dakshina you must cut off your head and present it to the guru. Simple as that...there are no ifs or buts.
    satay

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    Re: New and becoming disheartened

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan
    I confess that I am not a true mumukshu.
    True mumukshu is an impossibility! How can one be a 'true mumukshu' and still think himself as a reasonable person? What to do with the faculty of reason?

    True mumukshu is blind faith and in fact Utopia and we all know that Utopia doesn't exist.
    satay

  9. #59

    Re: New and becoming disheartened

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan
    I confess that I am not a true mumukshu. I will seek a lawyer if I am arrested. I will take medcines if I get sick. I will kill my enemy for self defence. These are not activities of true mumukshus. If you are uppto this level and have completely surendered to God for everything, I agree that God will take care of your everything.
    If you don't seek a lawyer when arrested, don't bother about medicines when sick don't harm when attacked in short don't bother whether you live or die or suffer or enjoy ~ what is there left to be taken care of ??

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    Re: New and becoming disheartened

    Quote Originally Posted by satay
    After I posted those verses, I remembered this one...

    Chapter 18 Shloka 66

    sarva-dharman parityajya
    mam ekam saranam vraja
    aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
    moksayisyami ma sucah

    !!!
    Darn it Bhagwan, make up your friggin mind!! U want us to perform sacrifices or abadon them!!

    Yes, this is quite true of mumukshus and Jnanins. The person who posted this thread was referring to the performance of Ayush Homam for his child, for longevity. Which is not an actibvity of a mumukshu who is not concerned about longevity of himself or others. So all my answers have addressed only such a context, and must not be misinterpreted to prove that I am "supporting" these rituals as a means of salvation. Srivaishnavism heavily condemns these rituals and sacrifices, and encourages true mumukshatvam, which means total surrender to God and be engaged in constant God thought throughout the day. Indeed, orthodox Srivaishnavites of the past never took medicines even if they were critically ill, and they would prefer to die if Lord Vishnu does not come for protection- we must ask ourselves. Are we really there yet? If no, we are all wordly people in some sense for whom rituals and sacrifices are quite appropriate, thougn no necessary.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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