New and becoming disheartened

[Sudarshan]

I heartily apologise to all, especially Sudarshan.

My tone in this debate has been most inappropriate and unnecessary, and I will now withdraw from this discussion before I cause myself and others any more bad karma.

I have not been offended in the least in a personal way. But when the priesly community is labelled as "liars" in a general way that would not be acceptable to Hindus who practice the faith. There are some dark horses everywhere.

However I appreciate your words. You have my utmost respect.

[Sudarshan]

But I thought that you said God doesn't do anything, he just lets karma take its affect. We are not all Arjunas but yet we are to follow the teaching that was given to Arjuna.

God is very confusing...

But that is with respect to Karma only. That does not stop God being guru does it? When you are qualified to a certain level, yes, you will have the privilege of having Krishna as your guru, and ah yes, the Visvarupa Darshan too. Arjuna is just one of the sadhaks and a role model to emulate. Hey, if you are not a kshatriya please dont venture to emulate all his actions.

[satay]

Nine pages of discussion. Wow!

[ramkish42]

After I posted those verses, I remembered this one...

Chapter 18 Shloka 66

sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah

!!!
Darn it Bhagwan, make up your friggin mind!! U want us to perform sacrifices or abadon them!!

As this is about my signature, would like to throw some light on this.

Lord has asked not abandon all religions and religiousness but not to do it for their own sake, this is already explained in Karma Yoga.

Lord has asked us to abandon all outwardly religiousness and start being a person who lives for gratification of the lord. All duties must be adhered to for the satisfaction of the lord, for he has created those duties and bestowed upon us.

This is very big discussion, will post some time later when time permits

Jai shree krishna

[Singhi Kaya]

Nine pages of discussion. Wow!

I see only 2 and a quater ~ maybe because I have 40 posts per page ~ good way not get burdened by size

[Singhi Kaya]

I fail to see how one can be real mumukshu while not really using the emotions. In my opinion a real mumukshu is that who does his thing without attachment but not necessarirly without emotions. Emotions are there but he simply is aware of these emotions and doesn't allow the emotions to take over. He doesn't supress the emotions and says care don't care is the luggage...he simply accepts this luggage and carries it happily without any questions asked and performs his duty.

Are we on the same page for this?

I think I meant without attachment only. I didn't mean to supress emotions, if you are not affected by personal or ideological emotions, that's pretty much w/o emotion to me.

What are emotions??
Feeling of good, bad , love or hate which comes to our mind when dealing with worldly objects and subjects.

Why do they come??
Because in our chitta (part of which is memory) we have associated some good feelings and some bad feelings, some love and some hate and some non-sense ideas about objects and subjects of this world. We have accumulated these in past lives and continue to do so now. Worst we act blinded by them.

Are our ideas necessarily true??
I would say they are mere distractions in seeing the world as it is. I believe in the domain of mind and language, logic is the only tangible thing. Both memories and feelings associated with them are the chains of avidya. The more we act with our preferences more we get entangled in sanchita karma.

Now given this setting, how come caring or not caring for world a question in this context?? Personally I hold the view that we have come to the world develop further. Evolution is the principle on which nature is working. Duty is not create obstructions to my own evolution and my fellow beings. And oppose those demons who do so. I'll fight or do seva purely because it comes out as my dharmic duty. Yes I may have emotions ~ that doesn't mean it is a great thing to have

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

I fail to see the relevance of discontinuing 'dakshina'. In the chruch a basket is usually handed to all members who then drop money in that basket. What's the purpose of that?

Money as evil as it is, has its practical purposes. How do we expect the temple to run without money? and especially when most hindus are running after mateiral things and don't donate money to the temple to begin with?

I think 'charging' for something is a temple matter and the temple has to charge something otherwise how do they run the temple? On the other hand there is 'dakshina' an amount of money that one is supposed to give to the priest who just performed whatever you have asked him to perform. The problem occurs when a priest demands dakshina! That is unholy. I don't think this priest demanded money...the temple did, which is quite normal and acceptable.

The fact is that Christian churches never charge for anything--not even weddings. They pass the plate around and ask for donations and even through the churches also will perform a variety of rituals (which are not comparable to those in Hinduism) as well as rites of passage (such as marriage) they ask for donations and may suggest a minimum donation, but never do they flat out "charge" for a service. I live in the U.S. and I literally am not aware of even one Christian church that actually charges for blessings, rituals, rites of passage, etc. Yet every Hindu temple I have ever visited in America has charged flat rates for dozens of different rituals, services, etc.

I don't believe that Hinduism should be run off of a cash register. Yes temples do need money in order to operate. That is why they should ASK people to donate. There is a big difference between asking devotees for donations and operating a cash register and charging for practically everything. I also agree with Gill Harley's views that rituals that have nothing to do with spiritual self-realization should be done outside of the temples. The temples should either be for spiritual growth and behave that way or they should flat out be honest and say they are businesses designed to make money and thus have their tax-exempt status removed. I find it quite sad that so many genuine Hindus seeking spiritual growth (both Indian and non-Indian) are for the most part having this stolen by temples. Temples appear to be the dominate form of Hinduism in today's world and in many ways are actually destroying Hinduism due to their excessive reliance on business tactics. If Hinduism is going to just be about operating a business, then it is time for the few serious Hindus left to start a new religion. Sad to say, but history never fails to repeat itself.

Last but not least, some comments have been made about these rituals being done for material purposes (boons, money, etc.). Such material things should be conducted in a business, not a temple. I take spiritualism and spiritual growth very seriously. If an institution such as a temple lies to its members and tells them that they are "serving the interest of Hindus in the community" and "providing a spiritual domain" and in reality are doing neither and just charging money for irrelevant activities, then they should either be closed or have their tax-exempt status pulled by the government. ~BYS~

[ramkish42]

Thank you Thouart, as you had felt Lord Ganesha will steer you to the right path

Do buzz me for any queries

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

I don't see the point of discontinuing any rituals just because some new hindus don't like it. All rituals have a purpose. Rituals are for material desires which is part of the hindu religion. No one is forced to perform them. I have gotten some of these rituals performed myself for my daughter as she is quite ill and have 'paid' dakshina. I dare not accept anything free in return of a priest trying to neutralize mine and my daughter's bad karma! Even if the priest didn't ask for it, it is a hindu's duty to give something in return.

There is still a difference between giving and paying. Giving means that you choose to give something in return and this should be a combination of what you feel you should give in return as well as what you can afford to give. This is a voluntary transaction. Even if they require you to give something in return, it is voluntary in the sense that you choose what you give in return. This is a moral way of teaching someone to appreciate what they have. Charging for something is different. That is known as a business transaction. This is when you are required to give a specific amount of something or a specific item in exchange for a product or service. There is nothing spiritual about charging for something. I am not debating whether this is right or wrong but I am stating that demanding money or charging for something is not a way to teach someone to be more spiritual nor is it a spiritual transaction. ~BYS~

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

One must note that the Pujari's main income is from performing these rituals, and if everyone started questioning this, he will have to go hungry and we wont have any more priests.

Ok, here is a great compromise. If the priest is self-employed and is doing these rituals outside of the temple, then he must be taxed according to U.S. law and must fill out a 1099 form each year and be taxed on his earnings. Sorry but we all have to put food on the temple, priest or not, and I don't think it is right that I work 40 hours or more in a week and have to give 10-20% in tax yet a priest can go around probably making much more money than me in these rituals and be tax-exempt. Legally, if the priest is doing this outside of the temple and it is for his own personal welfare, then he has to be taxed on his earnings.

Second, if the priest is doing these rituals inside the temple and it is not for the welfare of the people who go to the temple, then the temple should also have its tax-exempt status removed for it is no longer a non-profit organization. Temples are not to be tax shelters allowing people to put food on the table yet not to have to pay tax like everyone else in the country. As said before, if they are going to run this stuff like a business, it should be treated like a business. I am in support of real pujaris who actually are interested in other people's spiritual growth. Pujaris that are just doing it is a job to feed their family should be taxed and have their incomes regulated just like everyone else.