New and becoming disheartened

[satay]

This is not a reply to Shri ThouArt / Shri Satay but just an fyi for anyone who might be reading this thread.

I don't know why you are quoting my post and yet you don't want me to reply to your post. Anyway, your post doesn't make sense, not sure why you are picking on shiva temples.

The point that we are all trying to make is that the pujari in the case acted the way he did for no apparent reason. He should have been more professional or not perform the puja at all. Why do the puja when you are angry?

[Singhi Kaya]

How would I know UNLESS I WAS TOLD any of the things you mention in your reply post? And why would the priest's discrimination be unfounded? If I treated someone of ANY race or group or culture the way I was treated I would be called a flaming racist and severely punished socially and as is often the case here in the U.S fired from my job, etc.
As many times as I have attempted to learn from the beginning I am afforded nothing. My desire to attend a temple is to learn to practice and worship correctly and be able to feel God's spirit within.
I am not a tourist nor a dilletente! A priest of any religion is supposed to be a leader and honorably represent the religion he/she practices. Getting red-faced and screaming in front of a neophyte trying to find his/her place on the path to God is an embarrassment to that religion indeed.
There are no Brahmins in my neighborhood nor any other "caste". In the U.S you are rich or poor or somewhere in between. However, rich and poor and the in-betweens can and often do live and work in the same neighborhood and many worship at the same neighborhood churches, sans screeching elitist priests.
Challenging me on my "spritual lineage" gets me right back where I started, one of the main reasons why I never practiced any form of Christian religion because of it's disingenuousness and multilayered: garbage in, garbage out.
That just makes me that much more disappointed!

Namaste ThouArt,

From your posts it is ovious that the preist was poorly mannered at least from an american stand point. But as i said in the very begining, this is a case of an Indian misbehaving. It is an un-expected sort of behaviour as I would expect a poor mannered Indian to misbehave with other Indians and oil whites as Satay has obsereved.

But I expect u came to hinduism because the philosophy and spirituality immpressed you and not because Indians seemed the best people on earth. And since hinduism is an individuals journey and not a congression this should not dishearten you against hinduism. Yes for us hindu's ~ hypocracy of Indians is sad, but it is a different issue. Very few Indians are hindu's by thought and deed. Many of us perform certain drills as customs and spend rest of the life in selfish hypocracy. If all Indians were true hindu's (in thought and deed) we would not be an occupied country for 1000 years and a lagging nation for 60 years. So let's dump Indian issue for other disscussions. I only want you to realize that behaviour of an Indian has very little connection to hinduism.

Finally,this is more true for preists than even common folk. The preist class is not a representative of hinduism (unlike other religions where preists are the representatives). They are just a class who perform external rituals for everybody in public temples. The only external representatives of Hindu Religion are it's Guru's, Yogis and Siddhas. Rest of us can be good hindus and make positive impact to society. But hinduism should only be judged, if at all (beyond the philosophy and spirituality) by the traits of the Guru's.

[Sudarshan]

I am surprised that this priest behaved as he did. Most of the time I have experienced indian hindus ready to lick the feet of foreigners (especially americans) for no reason at all. This behaviour can be observed anywhere, from hotels to temples in india. When you stay at a 5 star hotel it with 100% guranteed that I can say that if you are white you will get a better service than if you were indian staying there paying same amount for same service. It is embarrasing really but why this priest behaved like that without any reason. What was ThouArt's fault? Nothing that I can see.

The common man in India licks the feet because the white man usually has more money.

I have seen some autorickshaw and taxi drivers trying to flatter whites who come to India, and hoping to receive some "tips". So the respect is limited to this extent. I personally think no Hindu or Indian for the matter gives any more respect to a foreigner than he does to his fellow countrymen.

ps: I don't mean to demean any hindus or indians here but just stating my observation of the behaviour of indians. Not implying that pujari should be licking someone's feet...

Just like many Americans have inborn racist tendencies, some Hindus have that as well. Some Hindus (including pujaris) tend to think that Hinduism is only for born Hindus and the rest dont deserve to be included. There are Hindus who think all westerners are mlecchas irrespective of their beleifs. An isolated incident like this should not be taken seriously at all. Even if all pujaris are like that, even then it is no shame for Hinduism. You have to know what Hinduism is based on its scripture and not based on the actions of some or even many Hindus.

If you take a majority poll in India, there is no doubt that an average Hindu would be tolerant of all beleifs( note: tolerance means not resorting to violence), and would be willing to include any non Hindu to the Hindu fold. Those who dont are a thin minority whose views maybe conveniently ignored.

[Gill Harley]

sorry - I'm a bit late to this. But I'm thinking that surely the fact the ThouArt had to pay for this blessing is scandalous! Even the Roman Catholic Church (not my favourite institution) stopped asking for "indulgences" hundreds of years ago. In my view, asking for money in exchange for interceding for you with God or gods is little short of fraud.

[Singhi Kaya]

sorry - I'm a bit late to this. But I'm thinking that surely the fact the ThouArt had to pay for this blessing is scandalous! Even the Roman Catholic Church (not my favourite institution) stopped asking for "indulgences" hundreds of years ago. In my view, asking for money in exchange for interceding for you with God or gods is little short of fraud.

Homa is not a blessing but a ritual which has it's expenses.
Also preist is traditionally supported by the "dakshina" given by the satisfied grihasta for the service. Most importantly I think these vedic homas are performed to ask for boon from Gods for material and menatl well being. With such material ends the pratice of providing for the guy who does the job for you cannot be scandalous. Perhaves you are confusing this with blessing from a guru. In christianity there nothing which parallels the homas and pujas done for pure well being and hence cannot be compared to this.IMHO.

[Gill Harley]

OK then...it's not scandalous. It's taking money under false pretences. As if these clerics have any power to get the gods to grant donors wealth and material being...even should they be so blind as to hanker after it.

None of this practice has anything to do with the practice of God realisation, and I think it should be discontinued immediately - or at least taken out of the temples and left to base magicians and tricksters.

[satay]

I fail to see the relevance of discontinuing 'dakshina'. In the chruch a basket is usually handed to all members who then drop money in that basket. What's the purpose of that?

Money as evil as it is, has its practical purposes. How do we expect the temple to run without money? and especially when most hindus are running after mateiral things and don't donate money to the temple to begin with?

I think 'charging' for something is a temple matter and the temple has to charge something otherwise how do they run the temple? On the other hand there is 'dakshina' an amount of money that one is supposed to give to the priest who just performed whatever you have asked him to perform. The problem occurs when a priest demands dakshina! That is unholy. I don't think this priest demanded money...the temple did, which is quite normal and acceptable.

[Sudarshan]

OK then...it's not scandalous. It's taking money under false pretences. As if these clerics have any power to get the gods to grant donors wealth and material being...even should they be so blind as to hanker after it.

None of this practice has anything to do with the practice of God realisation, and I think it should be discontinued immediately - or at least taken out of the temples and left to base magicians and tricksters.

But they are part of the Hindu religion, and are actually connected with astrology. We are actually doing such homam as a remedy to alleviate bad Karma. It is linked to the theory of Karma, and is indeed part of the religion.

It is not related to God realization, but more related to material world. Just like you would go to a doctor when you are sick. Can you ignore illness just because you are interested only in God realization? We have our share of wordly problems, and one way is to completely surrender to God, and the other way is to seek a remedy through other means.

If you are sick, you will probably go to a doctor. If there are no medicines for your illness, you will try these homams that target your disease at the Karmic level. If that too fails, there is no other way but to surrender to the divine or resign to the fate. But no one will do that as a first resort. For those religions that dont have a theory of Karma, all this will appear nonsense, because they have no explanation of why you became sick in the first place at all.

Like sickness, the concept is extended to many wordly objecitves like long life, more wealth etc by the practice of homams or the wearing of yantras. It is not related to magicians and tricksters, as you have mentioned, who cannot do anything more than illusions. If you beleive in the theory of Karma, there is no reason to discredit the validity of these homams, except as a matter of personal opinion. One might as well reject God in absence of solid evidence.


The pujari himself has no power on his own to satsify your material desires. These pujas are directed towards devas by chanting of certain mantras, which produce subtle vibrations at the level of the stula and sukshma sharira(Yogic plexus) which produce the desired objectives. As far as I know, Srivaishnavas have been heavily discouraged from performing any homams directed at material objecives.

[satay]

I don't see the point of discontinuing any rituals just because some new hindus don't like it. All rituals have a purpose. Rituals are for material desires which is part of the hindu religion. No one is forced to perform them. I have gotten some of these rituals performed myself for my daughter as she is quite ill and have 'paid' dakshina. I dare not accept anything free in return of a priest trying to neutralize mine and my daughter's bad karma! Even if the priest didn't ask for it, it is a hindu's duty to give something in return.

[Sudarshan]

I don't see the point of discontinuing any rituals just because some new hindus don't like it. All rituals have a purpose. Rituals are for material desires which is part of the hindu religion. No one is forced to perform them. I have gotten some of these rituals performed myself for my daughter as she is quite ill and have 'paid' dakshina. I dare not accept anything free in return of a priest trying to neutralize mine and my daughter's bad karma! Even if the priest didn't ask for it, it is a hindu's duty to give something in return.

Bad Karma is not neutralized directly in these rituals. You are actually performing another Karma, in the form of the ritual, which pleases the devas( who reside inside you in the form of abhimani devatas), who are able to satisfy your desire. The effect of the bad Karma may still linger on and perhaps be caried over to a future birth. But that is not a big issue, we can control the future by controlling the present. If you either obtain Jnana or perform a complete surrender to God(Saranagati), all karmas vanish. But if you are sick now, you cannot perform any sAdhana, and hence it makes sense to transfer the Karma to a future date. In this "free" time, you should make good the opportunity and realize God.!! If you still waste time, those bad karmas you tried to bypass through the ritual will be back to haunt you in a future birth.