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Thread: Shiva and Dionysos

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    Shiva and Dionysos

    Hail!!!
    I open this thread to deepen with the followers of Sanatana Dharma the strong links, or rather the identity among the "Greek" God Dionysos and the "Indian" God Shiva.
    As someone wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannos
    Rudra is Dionysos...
    That is foolish.
    Rudra is Apollo, the Sun.
    , I think it is fair and appropriate and proper to say something more on this topic, so that even non-Greeks could better understand the God Dionysos.
    This is a brief example of the parallel epithets of these two Gods:

    Dionysos is Protogonos, and Shiva is PrathamajA,
    Dionysos is Phanes, and Shiva is BhAskara
    Dionysos is Meilichios("the god that can be propitiated", or "the gracious"),
    Dionysos is Bromios, and Shiva is Bhairava and Rudra,
    Dionysos is Chronos, and Shiva is KAla,
    Dionysos is Kolonatas, and Shiva is Girisha,
    Dionysos is Agrionios, and Shiva is Sarva,
    Dionysos is Mainomenos, and Shiva is Unmatta,
    Dionysos is Perikionos, and Shiva is SthAnu,
    Dionysos is Melpomenos, and Shiva is NatarAja,
    Dionysos is Phlios, and Shiva is BhUpati,
    Dionysos is Nyktipolos, and Shiva is NisAcAra,
    Dionysos is Anax (Lord), and Shiva is IshAna

    Some Epithets of Dionysos:
    Agrios (wild one)
    Aisymnetes ( monarch, judge)
    Akratophoros (of unmixed wine)
    Anax (lord)
    Anthios (god of all blossoming things)
    Anthroporraistes (slayer of men)
    Areion (martial one)
    Arretos (ineffable)
    Arsenothelys (man-womanly)
    Auxites (bringer of growth)
    Botryophoros (bearer of grape clusters)
    Briseus (son of the nymphs)
    Bromios (boisterous)
    Charidotes (giver of grace)
    Choreutês (dancer)
    Chthonios (subterranean)
    Dasullios (of the thicket, wild-wood)
    Dendrites (of the tree)
    Dikerotes (two-horned)
    Diphyes (two-natured)
    Dithyrambos (of the dithyrambic hymn)
    Druphoros (oak-bearer)
    Eiraphiotes (insewn)
    Eleuthereus (emancipator)
    Endendros (tree)
    Eriphios (goat kid)
    Euanthes (fair blossoming)
    Eubouleus (good counselor)
    Euios (from the ritual cry)
    Hagnos (pure, holy)
    Hues (of moisture)
    Hugiates (dispenser of health)
    Iackhos (crier, caller)
    Iatros (healer)
    Isodaites (divider of sacrificial meat)
    Katharsios (he who releases)
    Kissobryos (ivy-wrapped)
    Kissokomes (ivy-crowned)
    Kissos (ivy)
    Korymbophoros (cluster-laden)
    Kryphios (hidden, secret)
    Lampteros (torch-bearer)
    Leibenos (of libations)
    Lenaios (of the wine press)
    Limnaios (of the marsh)
    Luaeus (he who frees)
    Lusios (liberator)
    Manikos (mad one)
    Mantis (prophet, seer)
    Meilikhios (mild, gentle)
    Melanaigis (he of the black goatskin)
    Melpomenos (harp-singer)
    Morychos (dark one)
    Nyktelios (nocturnal)
    Nyktiphaês (night-illuminating)
    Nyktipolos (night prowler)
    Omadios (of the raw feast)
    Omestes (feeds on raw flesh)
    Orthos (the erect)
    Pelagios (of the sea)
    Perikionios (of the column)
    Ploutodotês (bestower of riches)
    Polyeides (of many images)
    Polygethes (bringer of many joys)
    Polymorphos (many formed)
    Polyonomos (many named)
    Polyparthenos (of many maidens)
    Protogonos (first born)
    Protrugaios (feast before the vintage)
    Psilax (winged)
    Pyrigenes (fire born)
    Sannion (wagging one)
    Skêptouchos (scepter-bearer)
    Soter (savior)
    Sphaleotas (he who causes stumbling)
    Staphylos (the grape)
    Sukites (of the fig tree)
    Taurokeros (bull horned)
    Taurophagos (bull devourer)
    Tauropôn (bull faced)
    Teletarches (lord of initiations)
    Thriambos (of the triumphal hymn)
    Thullophoros (bearer of boughs)
    Thursophoros (thyrsus bearer)
    Trigonos (thrice-born)
    Zagreus (hunter)

    Ancient hymns to Dionysos:

    " Come here, Lord Dithyrambos, Bakchos, god of jubilation, Bull, with a crown of ivy in your hair, Roarer, oh come in this holy season of spring - euhoi, o io Bakchos, o ie Paian! Once upon a time, in ecstatic Thebes, Thyona bore you to Zeus and became mother of a beautiful son. All immortals started dancing, all mosrtals rejoicing at your birth, o bacchic god. - Ie Paian, come o Saviour, and kindly keep this city in happy prosperity.
    On that day Kadmos' famous country jumped up in bacchic revelry, the vale of the Minyans, too, and fertile Euboia - euhoi, o io Bakchos, o ie Paian! Brimful with hymns, the holy and blessed country of Delphi was dancing. And you yourself, you revealed you starry shape, taking position on the crags of Parnassos, accompanied by Delphic maidens. - Ie Paian, come o Saviour, and kindly keep this city in happy prosperity.
    Swinging your firebrand in your hand - light in the darkness of night - you arrived in your enthusiastic frenzy in the flower-covered vale of Eleusis - euhoi, o io Bakchos, o ie Paian! There the entire Greek nation, surrounding the indigenous witnesses of the holy Mysteries, invokes you as Iakchos: you have opened for mankind a haven, relief from suffering. - Ie Paian, come o Saviour, and kindly keep this city in happy prosperity."
    ("Philodemos' Paian to Dionysos")

    "God of the many names, Semele's golden child,
    child of Olympian thunder, Italy's lord.
    Lord of Eleusis, where all men come
    to mother Demeter's plain."(from "Antigone")

    "TO DIONYSOS (incense--storax)
    I call upon loud-roaring and reveling Dionysos,
    primeval, two-natured, thrice-born, Bacchic lord,
    savage, ineffable, secretive, two-horned and two-shaped.
    Ivy-covered, bull-faced, warlike, howling, pure,
    you take raw flesh, you have triennial feasts, wrapt in foliage, decked
    with grape clusters.
    Resourceful Eubouleus, immortal god sired by Zeus...

    HYMN TO DIONYSOS
    Come, blessed Dionysos, bull-faced god conceived in fire,
    Bassareus and Bacchos, many-named master of all.
    You delight in bloody swords and in the holy Maenads,
    as you howl throughout Olympus, O roaring and frenzied Bacchos.
    Armed with thyrsus and wrathful in the extreme, you are honored
    by all the gods and by all the men who dwell upon the earth...

    TO DIONYSOS LIKNITES (incense - powdered frankincense)
    I summon to these prayers Dionysos Liknites,
    born at Nysa, blossoming, beloved and kindly Bacchos,
    nursling of the nymphs and of fair-wreathed Aphrodite.
    The forest once felt your feet quiver in the dance
    as frenzy drove you and the graceful nymphs on and on,
    and the counsels of Zeus brought you to noble Persephone
    who reared you to be loved by the deathless Gods...

    TO DIONYSOS THE GOD OF TRIENNIAL FEASTS (incense - aromatic herbs)
    I call upon you, blessed, many-named and frenzied Bacchos,
    bull-horned Nysian redeemer, god of the wine-press, conceived in fire.
    Nourished in the thigh, O Lord of the Cradle, you marshal torch-lit processions
    in the night, O filleted and thyrsus-shaking Eubouleus.
    Threefold is your nature and ineffable your rites, O secret offspring of Zeus;
    primeval, Erikepaios, father and son of gods,
    you take raw flesh and, sceptered, you lead into the madness of revel and dance
    in the frenzy of triennial feasts that bestow calm on us.
    You burst forth from the earth in a blaze...O son of two mothers,
    and, horned and clad in fawnskin, you roam the mountains, O lord worshipped in annual feasts.
    Paian of the golden spear, nursling, decked with grapes,
    Bassaros, exulting in ivy, followed by many maidens...
    Joyous and all-abounding..."("Orphic Hymns")

    Tyrannos


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    Re: Shiva and Dionysos

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannos View Post
    Hail!!!

    I open this thread to deepen with the followers of Sanatana Dharma the strong links, or rather the identity among the "Greek" God Dionysos and the "Indian" God Shiva.

    As someone wrote:

    Rudra is Apollo, the Sun.


    I request you humbly not to mis-represent me. I did not say that Rudra is only Apollo but I said that Rudra-Shiva is both Apollo and Dionysius, as per Satarudriya. Morever, my main objection is to your series of unsubstantiated statements "Rudra is Dionysius" and then "It's "Dionysus versus the Crucified, the Ubermensch versus the "Last Man". ".

    Can you show reference for your above statement from any valid scripture? (Be brief)

    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 23 December 2008 at 05:08 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Shiva and Dionysos

    Extrapolating Pre-Christian Faiths

    I can understand the enthusiasm of comparative study of other religious gods with those of Sanatana Dharma, but we should remember that such comparisons are at best extrapolations, often bordering on odiousness and absurdity, because a very vital element is missing in the assembled portraits of the Greek, Roman or other gods: mysticism.

    The comparison of Shiva with the greek wine god Dionysos (or Dionysus, also identified with the Roman god Bacchus) is, for Hindus, a clear extrapolation: Shiva, in all his three forms--as Shiva, Shakti and Rudra--is a god of mysticism, who can be only reached by contemplation, meditation and yoga-niyama--not by the Bacchanalian revelries. The appellations and epithets quoted by Tyrannos in this thread and elsewhere may serve to compare Dionysos with Shiva in some of forms of the Hindu god, but Shiva as Rudra is 'eko' (as Atanu has repeatedly pointed out) and with Shakti is the consciousness, action and knowledge (ichChA, kriyA and jnAna) of the manifest creation--the whole universe with all its sentient and insentient forms. The appellations of Dionysos, however, do not and cannot seek his 'identity' with Shiva beyond what you and I as mortal human beings seek in our present or even most advanced state of spiritual advancement.

    Western scholars have compared Dionysos with Jesus (search google with the phrase "Dionysos and Jesus"). I found this comparison of Dionysos with Skanda/Muruga as 'logical' as the one Tyrannos makes out with Shiva: http://kataragama.org/research/dionysus.htm

    Sometime back, Sarabhanga and I had a long debate in the thread "Extrapolating Christianity--to What End?", wherein he sought to compare Dionysos with Sri Rama!

    Who is this god Dionysos or Dionysus? How did the ancient Greeks regard him?

    • Dionysos was not part of the twelve Olympian Gods and Goddesses of Greek Mythology. He was a late entrant, with different sources as to his origin.

    • The prefix '-nysos' in his name is considered to be non-Greek in origin, though the prefix 'Dio-' was associated with Zeus, the father God of Greek mythology.

    • Unlike the Olympian gods, Dionysos was born to a mortal woman Semele. Hera, wife of Zeus, discovered it and demanded of her to seek confirmation of her son's divine origin from Zeus, so Semele insisted on Zeus revealing his divinity and perished as a mortal, in the aftermath of bolts of lightning as Zeus revealed his true form. Zeus rescued the foetal Dionysus by sewing him into his thigh and nourished him until he was born, and this accounts for the epithet 'dimetor' as Dionysos was 'twice-born'.

    • In another version, Dionysos was the son of Zeus and Persephone, the queen of the Greek Underworld. Hera sent Titans to kill the child, and Zeus drove them away but not before they ate everything of the child except of heart, and Zesus recreated his son in the womb of Semele, asking her to eat the heart, and thus Dionysos was 'twice-born'. Incidentally, by extrapolation we might even seek to say that Dionysos was 'twice-born', a 'dvija' so he was a Brahmin!

    As compared to this mortal origins of Dionysos, Shiva is 'svayambhu' (never born, always existing), as witnessed by the majority of Shivalingas which appear on their own for temples to be built over them--a fact which the Hindu history bears testimony to. If Rudra is said to have born to Brahma, again Brahma himself is a manifestation of Brahman, who is 'eko Rudra' as the Vedas say.

    Shiva and Shakti, of course, indulge themselves in wild abandon in the dance of creation and destruction of everything in the universe, but only for the current cycle of creation, at the end of which they merge into 'eko Rudra', the DakshiNamurti or the Shambhu who stays as sthANu (motionless Brahman) until the next creation.

    Thus, unless we find the true mystic elements of niyama, yoga and dhyAna in the other gods we seek to compare with the Hindu gods, such comparisions can only reek of extrapolation and may even sound odious to the true followers of Sanatana Dharma.

    Perhaps the ancient mystery cults such as the Dionysos, Bacchus and other gods picked up from the stories of Hindu Puranas, with the difference that while our Puranas always emphasize the mystic and dharmic aspects of life, these cults totally missed them (again perhaps due to their inability to understand them) and took up only the external revelry.
    Last edited by saidevo; 23 December 2008 at 10:10 PM.
    रतà¥à¤¨à¤¾à¤•à¤°à¤§à¥Œà¤¤à¤ªà¤¦à¤¾à¤‚ हिमालयकिरीटिनीमॠ।
    बà¥à¤°à¤¹à¥à¤®à¤°à¤¾à¤œà¤°à¥à¤·à¤¿à¤°à¤°à¤¤à¥à¤¨à¤¾à¤¢à¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤‚ वनà¥à¤¦à¥‡ भारतमातरमॠ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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    Re: Shiva and Dionysos

    Hello Atano!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu
    my main objection is to your series of unsubstantiated statements "Rudra is Dionysius" and then "It's "Dionysus versus the Crucified, the Ubermensch versus the "Last Man". ".
    Can you show reference for your above statement from any valid scripture? (Be brief)
    If my statement "Rudra is Dionysos" is unsubstantiated, then why you say this:
    Quote Originally Posted by atanu
    Rudra-Shiva is both Apollo and Dionysius, as per Satarudriya
    ???


    Something on the link between Apollo and Dionysos and the Sun:
    Apollo is the Sun of the Day, Dionysos is the Sun of the Night. A Delphi, the main sanctuary of Apollo, in winter there was Dionysos, in summer Apollo.


    As I had already written, Nietzsche concludes his autobiography "Ecce Homo" with the words: "Have I been understood? - Dionysus against the Crucified"

    Warm salutations,
    Tyrannos




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    Re: Shiva and Dionysos

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    but we should remember that such comparisons are at best extrapolations, often bordering on odiousness and absurdity, because a very vital element is missing in the assembled portraits of the Greek, Roman or other gods: mysticism.

    Well,
    I strongly advice not to make judgments and interpretations so hasty about things that one do not know completly...
    The word "Mysticism" is derived from the Greek language, so to say that in the Greek religion does not exist mysticism is something incredible ... there was the Mysteries of Dionysos, the Mysteries of Eleusis, the Mysteries of Samothrace, etc.etc.etc. The Greek Religion is par excellence a mystical religion.
    Dionysos had Mysteries associated with him, and "mystai" who sought initiation into a special relationship with the God.
    Marvin W. Meyer describes the Hellenistic mysteries as follows, "[They] were secret religious groups composed of individuals who decided, through personal choice, to be initiated into the profound realities of one deity or another. Unlike the official religions, in which a person was expected to show outward, public allegiance to the local gods of the polis or state, the mysteries emphasized an inwardness and privacy of worship within closed groups." (The Ancient Mysteries: A Sourcebook, pg. 4)
    The term "initiation" comes from the Latin word initiare, which is a late Hellenistic translation of the Greek verb myein, whence our word mystery comes from. The main Greek term for initiation, myesis, is also derived from the verb myein, which means "to close." It refers to the closing of the eyes which was possibly symbolic of entering into darkness prior to reemerging and receiving light and to the closing the lips which was possibly a reference to the vow of silence taken by all initiates. Another Greek term for initiation was telete. In his Immortality of the Soul Plutarch writes that "the soul at the moment of death, goes through the same experiences as those who are initiated into the great mysteries. The word and the act are similar: we say telentai "to die" and telestai "to be initiated".
    Dionysos was the Mystery-God par excellence in Greece. Not only did he have mysteries of his own, but he was a central figure in the Eleusinian Mysteries, as well as said to have been the founder and prophet of those belonging to the Magna Mater Kybele or Rhea.
    Proclus wrote that, "The teletai cause sympathy of the souls with the ritual in a way that is unintelligible to us, and divine, so that some of the initiands are stricken with panic, being filled with divine awe; others assimilate themselves to the holy symbols, leave their own identity, become at home with the Gods, and experience divine possession."
    Apuleius, an initiate in these mysteries, describes his experience as follows:
    "I approached the confines of death. I trod the threshold of Proserpine; and borne through the elements I returned. At midnight I saw the Sun shining in all his glory. I approached the Gods below and the Gods above, and I stood beside them, and I worshipped them." (Metamorphoses, 11.23)

    Tyrannos

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    Re: Shiva and Dionysos

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    Shiva, in all his three forms--as Shiva, Shakti and Rudra--is a god of mysticism, who can be only reached by contemplation, meditation and yoga-niyama--not by the Bacchanalian revelries.
    Something about Bacchae and Bacchanalia:
    We find Dionysos accompanied in his expeditions and travels by Bacchantic women called Lenae, Maenades, Thyiades, Mimallones, Clodones, Bassarae or Bassarides, all of whom are represented in works of art as raging with madness or enthusiasm, in vehement motions, their heads thrown backwards, with dishevelled hair, and carrying in their hands thyrsus-staffs (entwined with ivy, and headed with pine-cones), cymbals, swords, or serpents.

    Moreover, the negative reviews on Baccanali remind me of the criticism of Christians ... like those who say that Tantras are pornography ... as well as in India, during the Baccanalia the "Mystes" reached union and identification with the God ... in this case with Dionysos. The Baccanalia were ecstatic and mysterious practices towards the identification with the God ...


    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    The appellations and epithets quoted by Tyrannos in this thread and elsewhere may serve to compare Dionysos with Shiva in some of forms of the Hindu god, but Shiva as Rudra is 'eko' (as Atanu has repeatedly pointed out) and with Shakti is the consciousness, action and knowledge (ichChA, kriyA and jnAna) of the manifest creation--the whole universe with all its sentient and insentient forms.
    We must remember:
    Orpheus, who sings
    "Zeus, Pluto, Phœbus, Bacchus, all are One."
    "One is Zeus, Hades, Helios, and Dionysos"
    , and also this:
    Pythagoras said that the great Monad acts as a creative Dyad. Immediately God manifests himself, he is double; indivisible essence and divisible substance; active, animating, masculine principle, and passive, feminine principle, or animated plastic matter. Accordingly the Dyad represented the union of the Eternal-Masculine and the Eternal-Feminine in God, the two essential and corresponding divine faculties. Orpheus had poetically expressed this idea in the line:
    "Zeus is the divine Bridegroom and Spouse"
    This living, eternal Nature, this mighty Spouse of God, is not only the terrestrial but also the celestial nature, the Soul of the world, the primordial Light, Isis or Cybele, who, first vibrating beneath the divine impulse, contains the essences of all souls, the spiritual types of all beings. Then it is Demeter, the living earth, and all earths with the bodies they enfold in which these souls have come to be incarnated. Afterwards it is Woman, the companion of Man.
    "Honour be to Woman, on earth as in heaven," said Pythagoras and all the initiates of old. "She enables us to understand that mighty Woman, Nature. May she be the sanctified image of Nature and help us to mount gradually to that great Soul of the World which gives birth, preserves and renews, to divine Cybele who bears along the people of souls in her mantle of light."

    Tyrannos

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    Re: Shiva and Dionysos

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    • Dionysos was not part of the twelve Olympian Gods and Goddesses of Greek Mythology. He was a late entrant, with different sources as to his origin.
    No. Dionysos is one of the twelve Olympian Gods.
    We need to remember the story of Dionysos' punishment of the sacriligeous Pentheus: A King of Thebes (in Boiotia, Central Greece) who offended Dionysos with his blasphemies. When the god was introducing his cult to Greece, Pentheus denied his divinity, tried to prevent his subjects from honouring him, and even went so far as to try to have him apprehended. But when he sought to spy upon the orgies on Mt Kithairon disguised as a woman, Dionysos drove the king's mother and aunts to tear him limb from limb (sparagmos):
    "Dionysos say: In the land of Hellas, I have first excited Thebes to my cry, fitting a fawn-skin to my body and taking a thyrsos in my hand, a weapon of ivy ... I have goaded them [the daughters of Kadmos] from the house in frenzy, and they dwell in the mountains, out of their wits; and I have compelled them to wear the outfit of my mysteries (orgia). And all the female offspring of Thebes, as many as are women, I have driven maddened from the house, and they, mingled with the daughters of Kadmos, sit on roofless rocks beneath green pines. For this city must learn, even if it is unwilling, that it is not initiated into my Bakkheuma (Bacchic rites), and that I plead the case of my mother, Semele, in appearing manifest to mortals as a divinity whom she bore to Zeus.
    Now Kadmos has given his honor and power to Pentheus, his daughter's son, who fights against the gods as far as I am concerned and drives me away from sacrifices, and in his prayers makes no mention of me, for which I will show him and all the Thebans that I was born a god. And when I have set matters here right, I will move on to another land, revealing myself. But if ever the city of Thebes should in anger seek to drive the the Bakkhai down from the mountains with arms, I, the general of the Mainaides, will join battle with them. On which account I have changed my form to a mortal one and altered my shape into the nature of a man"("Bacchae 25")
    "the sacriligeous Pentheus say:That one claims that Dionysos is a god, claims that he was once stitched into the thigh of Zeus - Dionysos, who was burnt up with his mother by the flame of lightning, because she had falsely claimed a marriage with Zeus. Is this not worthy of a terrible death by hanging, for a stranger to insult me with these insults, whoever he is?" - Euripides, Bacchae 215

    "The Chorus [of Bakkhai]say: Go to the mountain, go, fleet hounds of Lyssa (Madness), where the daughters of Kadmos hold their company, and drive them raving against the mad spy on the Mainades, the one dressed in women's attire. His mother will be the first to see him from a smooth rock or crag, as he lies in ambush, and she will cry out to the maenads: 'Who is this seeker of the mountain-going Kadmeans who has come to the mountain, to the mountain, Bakkhai? Who bore him? For he was not born from a woman's blood, but is the offspring of some lioness or of Libyan Gorgones.
    Let manifest justice go forth, let it go with sword in hand, slaying through the throat this godless, lawless, unjust, earth-born offspring of Ekhion.
    Whoever with wicked mind and unjust rage regarding your Orgia (rites), Bakkhos, and those of your mother, comes with raving heart and mad disposition violently to overcome by force what is invincible - death is the discipline for his purposes, accepting no excuses when the affairs of the gods are concerned; to act like a mortal - this is a life that is free from pain. I do not envy wisdom, but rejoice in hunting it. But other things are great and manifest. Oh, for life to flow towards the good, to be pure and pious day and night, and to honor the gods, banishing customs that are outside of justice.
    Let manifest justice go forth, let it go with sword in hand, slaying through the throat this godless, lawless, unjust, earth-born offspring of Ekhion.
    Appear as a bull or many-headed serpent or raging lion to see. Go, Bakkhos, with smiling face throw a deadly noose around the hunter of the Bakkhai as he falls beneath the flock of Mainades ..."

    "Messenger [returning from Mt Kithairon]say : When we left the dwellings of the Theban land and crossed the streams of Asopos, we began to ascend the heights of Kithairon, Pentheus and I - for I was following my master - and the stranger who was our guide to the sight. First we sat in a grassy vale, keeping our feet and voices quiet, so that we might see them without being seen. There was a little valley surounded by precipices, irrigated with streams, shaded by pine trees, where the Mainades were sitting, their hands busy with delightful labors. Some of them were crowning again the worn thyrsos, making it leafy with ivy, while some, like colts freed from the painted yoke, were singing a Bakkhic melody to one another. And the unhappy Pentheus said, not seeing the crowd of women: 'Stranger[Dionysos in disguise], from where we are standing I cannot see these false Mainades. But on the hill, ascending a lofty pine, I might view properly the shameful acts of the Mainades.'
    And then I saw the stranger [Dionysos in disguise] perform a marvelous deed. For seizing hold of the lofty top-most branch of the pine tree, he pulled it down, pulled it, pulled it to the dark earth. It was bent just as a bow or a curved wheel, when it is marked out by a compass, describes a circular course : in this way the stranger drew the mountain bough with his hands and bent it to the earth, doing no mortal's deed. He sat Pentheus down on the pine branch, and let it go upright through his hands steadily, taking care not to shake him off. The pine stood firmly upright into the sky, with my master seated on its back. He was seen by the Mainades more than he saw them, for sitting on high he was all but apparent, and the stranger was no longer anywhere to be seen, when a voice, Dionysos as I guess, cried out from the air: 'Young women, I bring the one who has made you and me and my rites a laughing-stock. Now punish him!' And as he said this a light of holy fire was placed between heaven and earth.
    The air became quiet and the woody glen kept its leaves silent, nor would you have heard the sounds of animals. But they, not having heard the sound clearly, stood upright and looked all around. He repeated his order, and when the daughters of Kadmos recognized the clear command of Bakkhos, they rushed forth, swift as a dove, running with eager speed of feet, his mother Agaue, and her sisters, and all the Bakkhai. They leapt through the torrent-streaming valley and mountain cliffs, frantic with the inspiration of the god. When they saw my master sitting in the pine, first they climbed a rock towering opposite the tree and began to hurl at him boulders violently thrown. Some aimed with pine branches and other women hurled their thyrsoi through the air at Pentheus, a sad target indeed. But they did not reach him, for the wretched man, caught with no way out, sat at a height too great for their eagerness. Finally like lightning they smashed oak branches and began to tear up the roots of the tree with ironless levers. When they did not succeed in their toils, Agaue said: 'Come, standing round in a circle, each seize a branch, Mainades, so that we may catch the beast who has climbed aloft, and so that he does not make public the secret dances of the god.' They applied countless hands to the pine and dragged it up from the earth. Pentheus fell crashing to the ground from his lofty seat, wailing greatly: for he knew he was in terrible trouble.
    His mother, as priestess, began the slaughter, and fell upon him. He threw the headband from his head so that the wretched Agaue might recognize and not kill him. Touching her cheek, he said: 'It is I, mother, your son, Pentheus, whom you bore in the house of Ekhion. Pity me, mother, and do not kill me, your child, for my sins.'
    But she, foaming at the mouth and twisting her eyes all about, not thinking as she ought, was possessed by Bakkhos, and he did not persuade her. Seizing his left arm at the elbow and propping her foot against the unfortunate man's side, she tore out his shoulder, not by her own strength, but the god gave facility to her hands. Ino began to work on the other side, tearing his flesh, while Autonoe and the whole crowd of the Bakkhai pressed on. All were making noise together, he groaning as much as he had life left in him, while they shouted in victory. One of them bore his arm, another a foot, boot and all. His ribs were stripped bare from their tearings. The whole band, hands bloodied, were playing a game of catch with Pentheus' flesh.
    His body lies in different places, part under the rugged rocks, part in the deep foliage of the woods, not easy to be sought. His miserable head, which his mother happened to take in her hands, she fixed on the end of a thyrsos and carries through the midst of Kithairon like that of a savage lion, leaving her sisters among the Mainades' dances." ("Bacchae 615")

    Tyrannos
    Last edited by Tyrannos; 24 December 2008 at 08:32 AM.

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    Re: Shiva and Dionysos

    After these and numerous other demonstrations, Dionysos became one of the 12 gods.
    I said this Dionysos, because there aren't different sources as to his origin, but on the contrary:
    "We have a number of Dionysoi. The first [the Orphic Zagreus] is the son of Jupiter [Zeus] and Proserpine ; the second [the Egyptian Osiris] of Nile - he is the fabled slayer of Nysa. The father of the third [Phrygian Sabazios] is Cabirus; it is stated that he was king over Asia, and the Sabazia were instituted in his honour. The fourth [the Thraco-Orphic Sabazios] is the son of Jupiter [Thrakian sky-god] and Luna [Bendis]; the Orphic rites are believed to be celebrated in his honour. The fifth [the Theban Dionysos] is the son of Nisus [Zeus] and Thyone [Semele], and is believed to have established the Trieterid festival." - Cicero, De Natura Deorum 3.21 - 3.23

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    The prefix '-nysos' in his name is considered to be non-Greek in origin, though the prefix 'Dio-' was associated with Zeus, the father God of Greek mythology.
    No. The name "Dios-nysos" means the "New Zeus" according to the "Real Encyclopedie";


    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    the epithet 'dimetor' as Dionysos was 'twice-born'...
    Dionysos was 'twice-born', a 'dvija' so he was a Brahmin!...
    No. In Greek "Di-Metor" means "twice mothered".

    Tyrannos

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    Re: Shiva and Dionysos

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannos View Post
    Hello Atano!!!

    If my statement "Rudra is Dionysos" is unsubstantiated, then why you say this:
    No. Names are different but the Eko (The ONE) is one only. That Rudra is same as Dionysius is a conjecture of Alan Danelieu (spelling may be wrong. I do not have enough time to check up). And in a enthusiast's mode, Alan rooted for victory of Dionysius. I say it is wrong. The Brahman is not a part. Rudra is not a part. Upanishad says

    eko hi rudro, dvittiya nasthu.
    The One is Rudra, there is no second.
    -----------------------

    In this light I ask for a citation of scripture as proof for your assertion: Its Dionysius (read Rudra) Versus the Crucified (The Last Man).


    I request again to pace yourself and consider that Brahman is partless. Similarly you will benefit from the understanding that Dionysius is EKO-ONE and has no one to overcome except himself.
    ---------------------------------
    Rudra is the Pragnya of Savitar, who exists because of Rudra yet Rudra in his various other manifestations abides by the rules of Savitar. This is how is Dionysius and Apollo. And Nietzsce highlighted this mutual interdependence.

    Note: In its highest form, Sanatana Dharma rejects both the Hegel's dialectism and Marx's Dialectism, without denying the relative truth of both of these in the relative worlds.

    But the Existence is One. The Cit is One. The Bliss is One. Sat-Chit-Ananda is One. Nietzsche, I believe, was totally averse to this. He was imprisoned in the turmoil of Hegel's dialectics and yet his soul could not accept it, since he was tortured by inner sense that Dionysius and Apollo are One in Zeus.

    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 24 December 2008 at 12:36 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Shiva and Dionysos

    Hail!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    Dionysos was not part of the twelve Olympian Gods and Goddesses of Greek Mythology. He was a late entrant
    Again about the meaning and origin of the name of Dionysos:
    'The Divine Intelligence' (from "Dios"and "nous" Macrobius, Saturnalia 1:18)
    Dionysos was not a late-comer to Greece, as so many seem to believe. He was clearly known in all of his particulars to the Minoans and Mykeneans, as is attested by the appearance of his name on a clay tablet at Pylos: "di-wo-nu-so-jo".

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu
    Names are different but the Eko (The ONE) is one only
    The Gods have different forms and different aspects:
    "Plaksha-dwípa:Hari, who is all, and the creator of all, is worshipped in this continent in the form of Soma...
    Sálmala-dwípa: they worship the imperishable soul of all things, Vishnu, in the form of Váyu...
    Kusa-dwípa: they worship Janárddana, in the form of Brahma...
    Krauncha-dwípa: The divine Vishnu, the protector of mankind, is worshipped there by the people, with holy rites, in the form of Rudra...
    Sáka-dwípa: Vishnu is devoutly worshipped as the Sun... "
    ("Vishnu Purana, CHAP. IV")

    The Gods manifest themselves in infinite ways, endless are the performances and the manifestations of the Gods: all the Religion of Dharma are all ONE and all the adharmic religion are ONE;
    also the sacred Indian texts speak of misleading "religions" created by the Gods with the goal that we all know very well, and the sacred Indians texts also tell us how we must behave with the followers of religions misleading, the "heretics":
    "Let therefore a man carefully avoid the discourse or contact of an unbeliever, especially at seasons of devotion, and when engaged in the performance of religious rites preparatory to a sacrifice. If it be necessary that a wise man should look at the sun, after beholding one who has neglected his domestic ceremonies for a month, how much greater need must there be of expiation after encountering one who has wholly abandoned the Vedas? one who is supported by infidels, or who disputes the doctrines of holy writ? Let not a person treat with even the civility of speech, heretics, those who do forbidden acts, pretended saints, scoundrels, sceptics 11, and hypocrites. Intercourse with such iniquitous wretches, even at a distance, all association with schismatics, defiles; let a man therefore carefully avoid them."(Vishnu Purana)

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu
    That Rudra is same as Dionysius is a conjecture of Alan Danelieu
    Alain Danielou was known as "the chosen-one of Shiva"...his Master and Guru was Karapatri...

    The similarities between Shiva and Dionysos are many, as well as the ties between Dionysos, Shiva, and Osiris:
    I open this thread precisely to analyze with you all the similarities between Shiva and Dionysos:

    -
    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu
    The One is Rudra, there is no second
    "Zeus, Pluto, Phœbus, Bacchus, all are One."
    "One is Zeus, Hades, Helios, and Dionysos"
    "Come, blessed Dionysos, Many-Named Master of All." - Orphic Hymn 45
    "Dionysos, Mighty and many-shaped God," - Orphic Hymn 50

    -The cult of Dionysos and Shiva were both impeded for their frightening aspects:
    Dionysos is Bromios, and Shiva is Bhairava:
    Euripides calls Dionysos "most terrible" (Bacchae, 860) and he had numerous horrific and frightening epithets, including Agrios "The Wild One", Anthroporraistes "The Render of Humans", Nyktipolos "The Night-Stalker", Omadios "He of the Raw Feast", and Omestes "Eater of Raw Flesh".

    -I had already written of the parallel epithets of these two Gods;

    -the Bull:
    Dionysos was represented as having bull horns (Sophocles Fragment 959) and Ion of Chios refers to him as the "indominatble bull-faced boy" (Athenaios 2.35 d-e) like the author of Orphic Hymn 45 who invokes Dionysos as the "bull-faced God conceived in fire". The women of Elis sought Dionysos to come "storming on your bull's foot" and hailed him as the Axie Taure "Worthy Bull". In Euripides' Bacchae, the Theban maenads ask him to appear as a bull (1017) and Pentheus discovers that in place of the effiminant stranger he had thought he'd imprisoned in the palace, there is a mighty and ferocious bull in his place. At Pergamon and elsewhere, priests of Dionysos were called boukoloi and arkhiboukoloi (IPergamon nos. 485-88) and the sacred marriage of Dionysos and the Basillina was celebrated in the boukoleion or sacred cow-shed at Athens. (Aristotle Constitution of the Athenians 3.5)
    And this is a Mystic phrase:
    "tauros drakontos kai pater taurou drakon, "The bull is father of the serpent, and the serpent father of the bull." "

    -and now something about the Lingas of Shiva and Dionysos:
    The phallus is ubiquiotus in the worship of Dionysos. According to Plutarch, the things carried in the earliest rites of Dionysos were: "A wine jar, a vine, a basket of figs, and then the phallus," (Moralia 527D) According to Aristophanes, Phales, the phallus personified, was the "friend and constant companion" of Dionysos, and accompanied him in processions and sacred dances. (Acharnians 263) Herodotus says that Melampos, who supposedly introduced Dionysos' worship into Greece, instituted phallic processions in his honor. (2.49) At Methymna on Lesbos there was a cult of Dionysos Phallen in which a wooden trunk with a face on it was carried in procession. (Pasuanias 10.19.3) Each colony sent a phallus regularly to the Athenian Dionysia, and at Delos large wooden phalloi were carried in processions.
    And Osiris: He is called "the Lord of the Phallus"

    -Again something on the link between Apollo and Dionysos:
    Plutarch said that they had equal shares at Delphi, and Aischylos speaks of "Ivy-Apollo, Bakchios, the sooth-sayer" (Fragment 86) while Euripides in his Lykymnios speaks of "Lord, laurel-loving Bakhios, Paean Apollo, player on the lyre" (Fragment 480).

    -Dionysos and Hades and Shiva and Yama:
    An Apulian volute crater of the Darius Painter depicts Dionysos at the head of his thiasos, joining hands with Hades who is enthroned in his aedicula opposite a standing Persephone. This is a visual representation of the mystery that Herakleitos revealed:
    "Hades and Dionysos, for whom they go mad and rage, are one and the same," (Fragment 115)
    Both Hades and Dionysos share a number of epithets. Dionysos is called Khthonios or "Underworld" as well as Nyktelios "The Nocturnal One", Melanaigis "Of the Black Goat Skin", and Polygethes "Giver of Riches" - all titles traditionally belonging to Hades. Euripides speaks of "Bacchantes of Hades" (Hecuba 1077) and Aeschylus calls the Erinyes "Maenads" (Eumenides, 500).

    Warm Salutations to all of you,
    Tyrannos

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