Jyotirlinga

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste dear Sarabhanga


Yes they are. In fact standing stones in Iberia especially in Alentejo Portugal are the most ancient standing stones know by scientists and they go back to the beginning of neolithic culture. What make this stones different is the fact that they are prior to any of the others achievements of megalithic culture proved by the fact that the stones are found alone in a field and not in a group as in Stonehenge's or as making part of a larger group of stones although there are grouped stones as well.
Facts to consider:

1-The stones are found alone
2- They are smaller
3- They are ornamented
4- the stones wore used for religious proposes and not political or as burial decoration that came later.

This is According to crookscape*, and some oder site's on the internet about Portuguese neolithic. Believing my translation of a small sample of text from that site, here in its Portuguese version:

"Deixando objectivamente de fora outras considerações igualmente pertinentes, este quadro faz notar e reforça aquilo que Manuel Calado tem vindo a chamar a atenção, ou seja, a forte tendência para situarmos o fenómeno menírico no momento mais recuado do neolítico, no alentejo."

and now in English:

Putting behind objectively oder considerations equally pertinent, this frame makes notice and reaffirms what Manuel Calado has been calling the attention to and that is, the strong trend to situate the meniric phenomena in a more ancient period of the neolithic in Alentejo.



The connection between the actual Konkani speakers and West Iberian is more obscure never the less there are scientific documents that can prove an historic relation between the two in a period that goes back at least 6 thousand years ago, they are credited to have introduced the art of shaping metal in Iberia.
Now in relation to the genetic group of the Saraswati Brahmins i would like only to ask if they have unabrow? Thats an an Atlantic genetic mark.
I dont want to take what i have said to seriously, especially in what concerns genetics, because a lot of things as i have already said are still very obscure and in investigation.
If you want a more elaborated answer, that will take some time for me to gather all the disperse info about the subject.
Thank you!


* http://www.crookscape.org/textdez2005/text06.html
http://www.crookscape.org/textmsls20...oonspring.html

"The earliest Neolithic monuments in Brittany and Portugal may have been created while Mesolithic cemeteries were still in use" (Bradley, 1998: 34)
"The distribution of larger monuments of this form might be more consistent with Mesolithic antecedents then with an ultimate origin in the heartlands of Neolithic Europe" (Bradley, 1998: 61)

Om namah shivaya!

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Nuno,

It does indeed appear that the oldest known standing stones are in Iberia, but was it the ancient Portuguese who actually went to all of the far flung locations where such menhirs are known, or was it just the idea (or the technical ability to manipulate large stones) that spread from the Iberian Peninsula and ushered in the “megalithic” age?

Menhirs are found in India (mainly in the south), but civilization in the Sarasvati region was already ancient when the earliest menhirs appeared (after 2000 BC ?).

The supposed linga excavated from Indus-Sarasvati (c. 2,500 BC) sites are much smaller, made from stone or molded from clay, and perhaps associated with a circular plinth (or yoni).



Shaivism seems to have developed from ancestor worship, so that death and after-life (as much as fertility, prosperity, or protection) ritual purposes would be inseparable from religious (and likely also political) purposes.

Konkani has ancient roots in India, and is perhaps connected with the old Indus-Sarasvati language, but the region of Goa has suffered very much Portuguese influence over more recent centuries and Konkani now includes many loan words from Portuguese.

And as for “unibrows”, I have no idea!

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Sarabhanga


There are recent genetic evidences of that spreading from the north of Africa after the first Ice age thought Iberian Peninsula ending on India and not the contrary. The coming back will happen later. See what the latest study s on populations genetics suggest.
The unibrow it´s a genetic characteristic of the Atlantic man and woman and its very usual to find it in Iberia, the Alps, Ireland, Scotland,France, Germany, central Asia, India, Persia and Afghanistan. So I believe that the so called Aryans who "invaded" India, i don't believe in a real invasion, wore the same that lift up does stones in Iberia much earlier than 2000 BC, maybe 12000 BC. And migrated from Europe trough and in central Asia as they settle, finally reaching India and growing Citys there. In what is now know the Indo-Kush ( Pakistan, Himalayas and North India) region that was already well populated of different tribal and genetic groups.This was progressive process it must had its first impulse 15000 years ago (suggested date). Sometimes violent sometimes cooperative. And then slowly progressive trough the Indian sub continent.
If this discussion goes on don't you think it is better to change the place of posting or create some new tread related with the history of Sanatana Dharma?

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Nuno,

The oldest menhirs in Portugal are perhaps dated from around 4,000 BC, but certainly not 12,000 BC!

Homo sapiens appeared (in Africa) about 100,000 years ago, and by 40,000 years ago humans had spread (via India) all the way to Australia.

When did the Iberian “stone-lifters” begin their supposed migration? 15,000 years ago? That would be 10,000 years before the oldest known standing stones were invented back home in Iberia!

The Aryan influx is supposed to have occurred after 2,000 BC, and the Aryans were preoccupied with fire-ritual rather than the worship of stone lingas.

What evidence is there of the “unibrow” status of the native Indus-Sarasvati population or of the incoming Aryans”?

None of this makes much sense to me!

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Sarabhanga

The neolithic starts according to Wikipedia 12000 BC. Scientists today appoint the beginning of stone culture in Iberia before and not after the neolithic started so i think 15000 is a good number for the starting of the migration. Have you read the subjects exposed in the links in my previous posts about the beginning of stone culture in Iberia.
In Iberia the menirs wore used for purposes of rituals of procreation, as religious object, as a mark signaling a buried corpse or the place of a grave( om namah shivaya), or as mark for moon observation. Doesn't that looks like some of the primitive attributions of a Linga in Shaivism and its relations with the moon cults.
The fire! Yes for travelers in that period keeping the fire alive was the most important and precious thing, life's depended on it has they crossed the gelid steeps of Eurasia and central Asia. The fire as an invention is much more older than standing stones or what ever we know as human.
Never the less and although the scientific findings and evidences this all matter doesn't make to much sense to me as well, if its going to divide instead of unite. I thought it was a good controversial subject to discuss and i am quite convinced of its veracity.Lets go back to mythologies instead.
Let me tell you the story that made me abandon to some degree the Christian faith. One day a local priest from a reputed order invited me to go with him watching a exposition on butterfly s. It was a very nice guy that priest he even show me the place were the order had a house and garden in Lisbon he wanted me to join the order.When all off the sudden i came upon some rare butterfly and i told him according to what was written about that butterfly that she belonged to the order X of butterfly s when for my surprise the priest told me that what i was seeing, that was according to what was written on the brochure about that butterfly, was something else, order Y of butterfly s he told me. -You must be wrong, i said, but the priest keep on telling me,-No I'm not! Infuriated he become. Since that day i have never trusted very much priest words I think most of them are just people with ego ( games) problems.Hope to be wrong. Om namah shivaya!


Love, Light!

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Nuno,

Perhaps stone-age culture (which does not necessarily include the erection of large stones) began in Iberia around 12,000 BC, but ALL dolmens, menhirs, etc. in Portugal have been dated somewhere from the late 5th millennium to the early 4th millennium BC ~ i.e. between 4,500 BC and 3,500 BC, or “around 4,000 BC” !

Once established, the idea almost immediately began spreading (in all directions), so perhaps this is associated with the migration of Iberians across long distances, or perhaps only the idea spread, step by step, through neighboring cultures.

The supposed Aryan influx into India (after 2,000 BC) may be connected with the arrival of Iberian megalithic culture, but most menhirs are in southern India (after 1,000 BC) and the Aryans came (with fire rituals, but not linga worship) from the north.

The Iberian megaliths all seem to be connected with a lunar ritual calendar, and the Shiva linga likewise has lunar and time-keeping associations.

I am not dogmatic about any of this, only going by available evidence, but I remain unconvinced.