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Thread: Christianity and me

  1. #11
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    Re: Christianity and me

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté atanu and saidevo

    Thank you both for your posts. As usual, they are well thought out ( and well received).
    saidevo writes
    I fully agree with you on the explicit Advaita preached in the lines about the Kingdom and knowing one's true self in the quote from the Gospel of Judas (or Thomas), but unfortunately, this apocryphal Gospel is not among the canonical Gospels of Christianity.
    Yes, I understand this. In the West this doctrine has been gaining more attention as some of these documents have been found in the last ~ 5 years and gained interest. I attribute it to parts of the Veda that still have not risen to the surface… Once found or 'discovered' we will find them of much use. Perhaps viewing the Gospel of Judas (or Thomas) in the same way is warranted ? I could be wrong. That said I cannot vouch for this Gospel but found it insightful reading. "Truth" came out of the words.

    Worthy of note - my view on this matter is not an adamant position that Christianity parallels an advaita ( 'not two') orientation , but that Christianity has parts of advaita and dvaita sewn within its fibres ( parā, parāpara and apara as we would say in Śaivism). I thought that may be valuable to acknowledge, as my defense on this is absent of motive but seeks to compare and contrast ideas.
    I know both you and atanu are amenable to this approach and only seek to uncover more insights on this matter.

    You also mention,
    IMO, had Jesus said to the effect, "I, you, my Father and everything else in this world are one", his message would have had the depth of Advaita. Anyway, I understand the situation: the Western society was not like the Hindu society, people disputed the divinity of Jesus himself, so had he spoken about the divinity of man, the results would have been disastrous
    Yes, I see your point. Also , I think Jesus tailored his message to the audience he was addressing. No different then any great teachers we are aware of in India; they answer the need at that specific time, yet it also has the depth and breath to stand the test of time.

    And also,
    Jesus merely stresses his own divinity with God his Father, and do not seem to extend it to an ordinary man, any man--friend or foe.

    I hope we are all blessed to be able to say this within our lifetime - the recognition and actual experience of our own divinity.

    That said, Jesus said the following which (IMHO) extends divinity to the common person and cajoles them to acquire this level of Being (sattā)
    • Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, 'The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you.' - Luke 17:21
    • But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. - Matthew 6:33
    atanu writes
    I may be wrong, but I am yet to see analysis of the three states of existence in Bible.
    I concur. Be it said I am not proficient in the Bible; I have not seen this level of thinking ( wake, dream and sleep) addressed in Christianity.
    What I find a bit more perplexing is what becomes of the individual that does not reach heaven (Self, mokṣa) ? This is very unclear to me as to the jīva-s outcome.
    Our doctrine of karma handles this condition sufficiently. Yet it seems Christianity leaves one's soul (ātma) within a dead body awaiting further review, or in some other condition. It is not clear to me how they define ātma/jīva/soul migration, if in fact they have an opinion on this. Yet Judaism is much more clear on this ... Here's a few ideas on HDF http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2763

    As I talk to some friends that are Christians, this thinking is foreign to them. Their orientation is all of the heart - of bhakti.

    also,
    Note: For me, the statement: "Be thy perfect as the Father in Heaven is", is sufficient to prove that Jesus was not teaching something contradictory to the teachings of Vedas. Perfection to the limit of God is possible.

    Yes, for me also it suggests the wisdom Jesus possessed and that he wished others to see their own potential.

    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 17 March 2009 at 11:31 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #12
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    Re: Christianity and me

    Quote Originally Posted by vcindiana View Post
    If we substitute the word Love for JC in his statement I am the way..then it becomes compelling that LOVE (God) is the way and the truth and the life.

    Love... VC
    Namaste VC,

    It reasons well with me. But if this love (which is your term for God) was different from the God Shri Krishna, then the problem would remain. Would Gods then clash? With Vedantic background, however, some of us will have a slightly different view but the differences will be in words only.

    Shri Krishna also teaches "Submit to me" or "Whosoever is worshipped, I am worshipped alone." So, is Shri Krishna in competition with Jesus or Jesus's Father? Shri Krishna also talks in two roles as a teacher of Brahman and also as Brahman.

    I have noted elsewhere the following three points.
    • The enlightened being is not divided in objects. In other words, He is One and All - Vishnu, all pervading.
    • Vishnu offered the beast (ego) to its deity and attained victory over all asuras and devas. We are also taught to offer our beast to Vishnu and attain a status like Vishnu.
    • Yajur Veda teaches us to follow footsteps of Vishnu to attain unsurpassable victory.
    When Jesus says "I am the way", it is not said as an individual but as an enlightened all pervading being that we know as Vishnu (or I must say like Vishnu to avoid wrath of some).
    --------------------------

    To illustrate further, let me add a story (real happening).

    In Ramana Asrama, devotees were singing a Ramana Stuti and Ramana himself was also singing with the group. The situation appeared very incongruous to a devotee (as it appears to us) and he asked "Why you are singing your own stuti?". Ramana said "Your problem is that you think that the Ramana is this". So, Ramana, the body-voice was singing to ramana the all pervasive, to Vishnu.
    Some old Jews (and many in Hinduism) steeped in body sense cannot fathom that true enlightentment is that where the individual beast is gone. There is only Brahman, which is the way and which is the goal. So, when an enlightened Guru teaches "I am the refuge of all", the Guru is referring to primeval AHAM, that is God. And this I of Jesus is not different from I of Shri Krishna. Jesus has said "Father in heaven and I are same". Shri Krishna has also said so in many ways. There cannot be two fathers in heaven, since every religion accepts that God is One. Shri Ramana is recorded to have said "I am that I am", of Bible is the most elegant expreseion of the truth.


    This is more or less the advaita understanding, propounded by all advaita gurus. If one imagines that I of Jesus is one and I of Shri Krishna is another, then there is going to be a Godly World War.

    That said, I must make one distinction. Veda says that "Lord comes from heaven to guard". That must be Ishwara and Avatara. Vedas also say that "Aspirants by their penance and austerity cross the bank to attain immortality". These must be the Jivan Muktas. Though the paths are of coming and going, spiritually, however, these two categories must be meeting in union, as Shri Krishna teaches "A Yogi sees same everywhere."

    In the highest sense of immutable Brahman, the coming and going are the happenings in states of Self.


    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. #13
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    Re: Christianity and me

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté

    I mentioned,
    I find sanātana dharma much more robust (then Christanity) - a fountain of knowledge that knows no end. A level of offerings for each level of awareness or consciousness. This is the beauty of this darśna ( lit. sight, yet infers philosophy - the love of wisdom).
    What I am not clear on ( or ignorant of) is any specific upāya-s¹ or dhāraṇā¹ that are offered in Christanity. I do understand prayer is
    a central theme and perhaps this is the methodology for unfolding the Kingdom within. Now that said, I am told that prayer and bhakti is a central theme - the alignment to Jesus and his message. This makes sense to me as the followers of in Christianity would then see Jesus as jagadguru¹ ; the (unwaivering) aligment to ones guru brings success.

    Yet from a sanātana dharma perspective , I have been spoiled. Specific upāya-s that are called out i.e. Vijñāna Bhairava kārikā-s,
    and Patañjali’s Yogadarśana to name a few have this aim in mind. That is, tieing knowledge and experience together for the pratitioner.
    That is why I have called sanātana dharma 'robust' - it looks at the individual then looks to tie knowledge + action (practices) to achievement to bring fulfillment.

    Kśemarāja-ji ( Abhinavagupta's principle śiṣyaka&#185 would use the term parāprāveśikā. This word is parā + prā +veśikā. Parā is the highest point , the chief object i.e. the Supreme + prā or pra is to go forward + veśikā is entrance. So parāprāveśikā is that which causes/allows/assists you to enter the Supreme. This I find in abundence in sanātana dharma.

    praṇām

    words
    • upāya-s उपाय that by which one reaches one's aim , a means or expedient
    • dhāraṇā धारणा- undistracted instruction; collection or concentration of the mind (joined with the retention of breath); the act of holding , bearing , wearing , supporting , maintaining ;firmness , steadfastness , righteousness
    • jagadguru = jagat जगत् + guru गुरु: jagat = the world or the worlds + guru is spiritual preceptor or spiritual parent. Hence for Christians, Jesus would be their Universal Guru.
    • śiṣyaka शिष्यक - pupil or scholar.
    • parāprāveśikā. This word is parā + prā +veśikā. Parā is the highest point , the chief object i.e. the Supreme + prā or pra is to go forward + veśikā is entrance. So parāprāveśikā is that which causes/allows/assists you to enter the Supreme.
    praām
    Last edited by yajvan; 25 March 2009 at 11:22 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #14
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    Re: Christianity and me

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namast

    From a Christian standpoint I wrote the following:
    What I find a bit more perplexing is what becomes of the individual that does not reach heaven (Self, mokṣa) ? This is very unclear to me as to the jīva-s outcome.

    Since Christanity has stong ties to the Jewish faith, perhaps this is relevent. I posted this some time back:

    I watched a most revealing special on the History Channel last night. It was about the origins of the Jewish religion. It spent the time on reviewing Kabbalah. This was new to me, as I am not familiar with this POV. As I understand it Kabbalah comes from a Hebrew root word 'to receive'.

    Here is what I found interesting... ( this is from the program and a web site I reivewed).
    • In Kabbalah, Adam and Eve are viewed as symbols of male and female energy - Siva and Shakti from my orientation.
    • "Kabbalah... is not about worship or belief, but rather 'becomes a direct path of communion between the individual and the Divine - this is yoga from my POV.
    • Kabbalah teaches reincarnation -we die and are reborn, living many lives, ever seeking to advance spiritually. They say "We are in a process of repairing our broken vessels, which may take many lifetimes".
    • When a critical mass of humanity spiritually advances, it tips the scale in favor of all humanity, and will bring us back to a connection with the immortality we had before -for me this is the return of Sat Yuga
    • We are all sparks of the Divine - for me this is Visphulinga
    • "Our days spent doing good deeds are 'woven into a garment of splendor that will clothe the soul as she enters Gods presence in the world to come." - beautiful.
    • There are three ways to ascend to higher consciousness:
      • study and scrutiny of (our) behavior;
      • seclusion, contemplation, and soul-searching; and having a constant awareness of the implications of everything one does. - for me this is part of yama and niyama.
    • The Kabbalah discusses angels and demons, souls journeys after death, reincarnation, resurrection, and the goal of achieving messianic consciousness.' .... It is not about 'rote obedience of laws and commands, 'but is rather a spiritual tool to enable us to regain unity with God. They would say 'to re-enter the Eden'.
    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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