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Thread: Chaos and cosmos

  1. #1
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    Chaos and cosmos

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté

    Cosmos is a greek term meaning 'order, orderly arrangement, ornaments'. Its opposite is chaos. We use the term chaos to depict dis-order. Yet as I understand it, it also was to mean primal emptiness, space.

    As I look at the definition of chaos, I am told it is from ghn or ghen meaning 'gape, be wide open' ( so says winkipedia). From this we get an Anglo-Saxon word gānian ('yawn'), geanian, ginian ('gape wide'). Yet for this post I am interested in 'order' and 'dis-order' and perhaps what you see.

    From my POV I see order in this cosmos. I see laws of nature at work and the laws of physics that try to keep up in defining all the
    phenomenon that surround us. Even random events ( as I see it) are structured by natural laws. Let me give an example that I wrote on another post:
    If something goes flying out from the center of a star or a galaxy or ejected in a random manner out of a human cell , the laws of velocity, attraction, resistance , gravity all apply.
    Lets not get so cosmic - how about a balloon that is let go, letting the air out to propel the balloon. To us, the path is random, yet to analyse it and chart the course of pressure, wind velocity, bla-bla-bla, the balloon took the path of least resistance to move in space... random to the observer, yet filled with order and the laws of physics.

    This suggests (IMHO) even 'randomness' must operate by the laws that are found in the universe, hence chaos is in the eyes of
    the beholder.
    Lets say some one asks, then what would be an example of pure chaos? I'd say laws of nature that are not reliable , that is:
    • Today I plant a tomato seed and get a pumkin... I am okay with that as long as each time I did this I got a pumkin.
      It is when you plant a tomato and one day you get a pumpkin, the next day you get a palm tree.
    • Today I put gas in my car and I get 50MPG, the next day I put gas in and it freezes the engine and it falls apart.
    • Today a female dog has puppies, tomorrow she gives birth to a kangaroo.
    • Today the earth completes a day in 24 hrs, tomorrow it takes 100 hrs to rotate 360°
    That is chaos...

    I see this cosmos as the intelligence of this Universe managing on every level. I see Creation ( Brahma at work) , the maintenance of this universe by Viṣṇu and I see its destruction (Rudra) in beautiful order.
    Now are these deities or are they names we give to macro-qualities of nature? I will leave that to you.


    Just wondered what you see? Order? Chaos? or a combination there of?






    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 20 May 2009 at 07:05 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #2

    Cool Re: Chaos and cosmos

    Namaste Yajvan G,

    err.. sorry for what that post is?
    JAI DEV

  3. #3

    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    Chaos and order are subjective. Something can appear chaotic or ordered depending on the position and scale of the observer, and the observer's personal opinion of the threshold between the two categories. Without an observer who holds both concepts in his mind, neither phenomenon exists.

    It is both and neither simultaneously. The same holds true for all dichotomies.

  4. #4
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    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namast simex

    Quote Originally Posted by simex View Post
    Chaos and order are subjective. Something can appear chaotic or ordered depending on the position and scale of the observer, and the observer's personal opinion of the threshold between the two categories. Without an observer who holds both concepts in his mind, neither phenomenon exists.

    It is both and neither simultaneously. The same holds true for all dichotomies.
    Let me ask then... we ( in our present form or identification) where not here for all time. As this universe unfolded over time - did it not exist?
    If yes - then was the unfoldment or expansion done in an orderly manner? If no, then what occured?

    Before we could view the heavens and deep space - stars exploded without our knowing. Did they do this by various laws of nature? Did this only occur until we viewed it?


    If an event takes place without your knowing, does it not follow some law inherent in nature? Lets say, as we speak an elevator is going up or down in New York. I have no idea who is in it, yet I can be certain ( 99.99999%) one is traveling up-or-down as I type this. Does it not follow some law of nature e.g. friction on the cables, graviity pulling on it, etc etc. and not dependent on my viewing it to occur?

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #5

    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    I don't know if things can happen in the absence of awareness.

    Now, as for chaos, order, and natural laws...

    Excuse me for answering your question with another question: how do you know that natural laws are constant when even the entire history of human discovery is but a tiny dot on the cosmic timeline? As far as we can tell, everything changes constantly, yet certain things appear to be constant because the rate of change between the subject and the object is so disparaging, or even the scale that the movement occurs in.

    Consider a large boulder. To the observer, devoid of scientific knowledge, the boulder appears permanent and immovable. however, if the observer were to look at the boulder under the most sensitive viewing device, he would see that it is teeming with movement, as electrons circle their nuclei. similarly, if the observer were to watch the boulder at a much faster time scale, it would look like clump of salt being melted away by the rain, it would not appear static at all.

    I suspect that all permanence is maya. Perhaps there is even a movement between existence and non-existence?

  6. #6
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    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    Namaste Yajvan.

    I am rather surprised that you have referred to the TrimUrtis but to Brahman in a discussion on cosmos and chaos. We know that Brahman as the Cosmic Consciousness is the substratum of both cosmos and chaos.

    Putting it into thoughts and expressions in Language and speech always 'reduces' and customises the Truth to different kinds of awareness levels. No wonder then that in manifest creation of duality, cosmos and chaos are paired as opposites, though in reality they merge into the great cosmic dance of Shiva.

    It would be interesting to have a look at the Sanskrit connotations of 'cosmos' and 'chaos':

    For the word 'cosmos', we have:
    • 'jagat': all the manifest words--gross and subtle--with its beings;
    • 'vishvaM': universe;

    For the word 'chaos', we have:
    • 'saMkaraH' (!): intermixture, confusion, 'rendered unclean by touch';
    • 'saMkula': violence, confusion;
    • 'saMkIrNatA': mingled, confused, disordered;
    • 'vyastatA': multiplied, scattered, confused.

    Thus we find that cosmos is always equated with material manifestation and chaos as the force or energy that creates the apparent order or disorder or both in the material manifestation. As Simex has explained it very well, both the cosmos and the chaos are 'mAyA', subjective, apparent and conditional realities projected on an Absolute Reality.

    In the style of Sarabhanga, we might say:
    Brahman = cosmos + chaos
    Brahman = matter + energy
    Brahman = Shiva + Shakti
    Brahman = AUM = AtmA + anAtmA + acceptance and negation (as their relationship)

    The 'scale' that Simex speaks of are the scales of 'space, time and motion'. Each of these three concepts have their triads. Bhagavan Das lists out these triads and their relationships in his book The Science of Peace, in chapter 12, which we have in this thread:
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2860 (post #3 on)

    He lists out the following triads:

    • space: side-beside-between, inner-outer-through, point-radii-sphere;
    • time: beginning-end-middle, past-future-present, moment-period-cycle;
    • motion: mergence-emergence-recurrence, approach-recess-revolution, linear-rotatory-spiral;

    And he says that the whole drama of interplay of matter and energy creating the cosmos and chaos is due to the acceptance-negation relationship the Self has with the Not-Self.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  7. #7

    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    "Brahman as the Cosmic Consciousness is the substratum of both cosmos and chaos"

    This is indeed true but of this as the Veda say nothing can be said or not said. Every discussion can be cut off by using this statement. Instead of using this as an excuse or rather defence mechanism in the face of awkward questions let us have the graciousness to address some of the points that have been raised. The issue is of correct orientation, what Yajvan has brought up has been called the scale of Being. Two opposite points, above=order, below=chaos and the One encompassing all. In relation to this the laws of physics have been introduced. Order cannot be 'seen' through the lens of physical laws. These laws have themselves descended from this order. But they are Bastard laws as Physics does not recognise its origin. This origin is a level in the universe of an order higher than on the Earth. A level more conscious. Consciousness is order all laws descend from this but when they lose connection with consciouness they become tools of chaos. There is no ordering principle, things begin to deterioate entropy is increased until we come to jada pure inert material. This is chaos. Pure non being 'a dog giving birth to a kangaroo'

    the Tantras say 'what is not here is nowhere' the equivalent of the saying of Hermes Trismesgistus 'As above so below' all this must be understood as being in the human body BUT not only just in the human body as simex has made the mistake of presuming. What is reflected in the human body is what is in the universe, but on a different scale.

    The order and chaos of the universe can only be understood in our bodies. To have a law and believe this law is operating elsewhere without your awareness is either a form of dogma or faith in this law or this law has been confirmed in your own consciousness and experienced. I believe only the latter has any validity and the former must only help or guide to the latter.

  8. #8

    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    Quote Originally Posted by amra View Post
    the Tantras say 'what is not here is nowhere' the equivalent of the saying of Hermes Trismesgistus 'As above so below' all this must be understood as being in the human body BUT not only just in the human body as simex has made the mistake of presuming. What is reflected in the human body is what is in the universe, but on a different scale.
    No, I agree with you.

    Things that occur in the human body also occur in the universe because the body is not separate from the universe. This is something I've only recently come to realize in the last year. I used to view all subjective phenomena as "not real" but now I see that even if we imagine something, it is real, because our imagining is a real thing that happens in the universe.

    I think you're taking it a step further than my view: you're also saying that the human mind is a reflection of the universe? That makes sense to me; there's no input, no shaping device that is not the universe. So, in the same way that songs written on the guitar might share certain characteristics by virtue of the fact that the notes are arranged in a certain way, our minds, a product of the universe, necessarily bear its hallmark?

    I would love it if you could elaborate as to why you think this.

  9. #9
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    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    Namaste Amra.

    Quote Originally Posted by amra View Post
    "Brahman as the Cosmic Consciousness is the substratum of both cosmos and chaos"

    This is indeed true but of this as the Veda say nothing can be said or not said. Every discussion can be cut off by using this statement. Instead of using this as an excuse or rather defence mechanism in the face of awkward questions let us have the graciousness to address some of the points that have been raised.
    Yajvan brought in the gods BrahmA, VishNu and Rudra and suggested that they might be "names we give to macro-qualities of nature". This is why I brought in Brahman who is behind nature as the immanent consciousness, driving and keeping it order. It does not mean that once we bring in Brahman, we shut out all superficial discussions. We can think of the white screen and talk of the movie as well and finally try to show that the order and chaos of the movie is nothing more than shades of light and sound projected on the substratum of the white screen.

    Quote Originally Posted by amra View Post
    This origin is a level in the universe of an order higher than on the Earth. A level more conscious. Consciousness is order all laws descend from this but when they lose connection with consciouness they become tools of chaos. There is no ordering principle, things begin to deterioate entropy is increased until we come to jada pure inert material. This is chaos. Pure non being 'a dog giving birth to a kangaroo'
    This is a good point I would heartily agree to, but there is one hitch. You say that order is where the connection with the consciousness is in tact and the loss of this connection brings in chaos. What makes certain things and beings to lose the connection and certain others to keep it? What can be said as answer to this question within the confines of physical science?

    For example, an insane man is chaotic in thoughts, emotions and action. Still, his manifest body must obey all the physical and physiological laws, though his mind does not. In other words, the order in his physical body is due to its keeping connection with the consciousness and the chaos in mind is due to its losing this connection. But then there is only one consciousness as the substratum of both his body and mind! What exactly is the reason that his grossly physical nature is in perfect order (always in touch with the consciousness) while his subtly physical mind is in chaos (losing its connection with consciousness)?

    If there is no (scientifically apparent) reason for the above mentioned order and chaos, then the offspring of an insane person must also be mad, but it never (if at all) happens in life. Suppose science is able to clone an insane man; will he be insane too?

    As in the human body, so in the universe--the point you have brought in is an eminent truth and this brings in the 'science' of astrology, and I hope Yajvan would be glad to elaborate on this connection, for I know much less of it.

    Thus, IMO, all theories and notions of physical sciences have their answers only in the metaphysical science behind it. The very notion of consciousness you have brought in, the concept of One Being, (both are synonyms for Brahman) though accepted by modern physics, cannot be explained within its confines. Metaphysics and Philosophy are not just dogma or faith; they are as empiral and disciplined as science. The ultimate perception of the unity in chaos and order, as Atanu would point out, is only in Self-Realization, which is subjective, and Simex would be correct there!
    Last edited by saidevo; 03 April 2009 at 12:23 PM.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  10. #10
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    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté


    amra-ji writes the following,

    Consciousness is order all laws descend from this but when they lose connection with consciouness they become tools of chaos
    brilliant.

    saidevo writes,
    The ultimate perception of the unity in chaos and order,
    Well said;
    This in a nutshell is the definition of uni+verse - Universe , a unity in the mist of diversity.


    This 'order' is restored when one brings this level of consciousness (unity of Being) to ones awareness.


    simex writes,
    I don't know if things can happen in the absence of awareness.
    This is in lieu of my question on things happening without a 'human's' obeservation or awareness of an action.

    As I see it and have been taught and experience it, awareness ( applied consciousness) is not dependent on human intervention. We share consciousness, we apply it as awareness, yet it does not need us to exist. Consciousness is not the sole domain of humans. There is no thing that it is not.


    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 04 April 2009 at 09:07 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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