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Thread: Chaos and cosmos

  1. #21
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    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namastщ saidevo,

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste Yajvan.

    Wikipedia tells us that the 'Boomerang Nebula', better known as the 'Bow Tie Nebula', has the lowest temperature of 1 deg K (-272 deg C) and that the 'background glow from the Big Bang' is 3 deg K (-270 deg C). These are perhaps the physical manifestations that are the closest to the nature of the Absolute Truth (Brahman).

    Now, if the core of the nebula has a temperature of 1 deg K, the surrounding space must be closer to this temperature. If so, should not the outflowing gas move at far higher speeds though not at the speed of light because of the conditions of near superconductivity, whereas the gas is said to move out at only 164 km/s? Aren't these two observations (temperature and movement) contradictory? Or perhaps my assumption that at Absolute Zero with its superconductivity and superfluidity, movement/communication would approach the speed of light because of almost zero resistance is wrong?
    Yes, the physics I too took in college is now antiquated ( less the fundamental laws of Newton and the like). I have no firm answers to what we are pondering here, but had a thought or two to share with you.

    As this gas expands through ~1║ K , my first thought is was there enough energy ( initially) to get it to move faster then 164km/sec. ?
    It is travelling at the speed of what it was energetically stimulated by.

    What of no resistance, why not maximum speed? Here's one POV we can consider:
    Take a ball and place it in an Absolute Zero environment ( say a billion km of 0║ space). Does it move? If it is at rest, it remains at rest - the Absolute Zero environment does not influence the ball's state of rest.
    Now take the same ball, same conditions and give it a push. It will move at the speed of the initial push ( say 5k/sec) - yet it will not stop - because there is zero resistance to it within the Absolute Zero environment. There is no outside force adding push to it to go faster, and hence no acceleration and its speed remains constant with no degradation.

    Once the ball gets to the end of Absolute Zero environment then it will slow down and finally stop as no one is adding energy to it to keep its velocity constant.

    Regarding the Galaxy Gas
    Yet the other thought I had - the full 'fluid flow' with no resistance may be only occur at 0║ Kelvin. Being 1║ K may not make the laws come into play. Its only at that point of Absolute Zero that the laws then take on these other characteristics.

    And what of the opposite forces acting on it slowing it down? the pull of gravity from other sources? I do not know if this is accurate or possible.

    ...just a few ideas, perhaps some are accurate, some not.



    praṇām
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    yatastvaс╣Б ┼Ыivasamo'si
    because you are identical with ┼Ыiva

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  2. #22
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    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    Namaste Yajvan.

    I can understand the points in your reply, but certain doubts linger:

    Wiki says that at Absolute Zero:

    • the entropy is zero and all molecular motion (that involve energy) ceases. What about the motions/vibrations inside the atoms that constitute the molecules? If there is superconductivity and superfluidity, then what could happen to the electrons in the atoms? Would they stay in their orbits or be conducted along the huge spaces between the atoms?

    Perhaps this is where the Consciousness comes into play, preserving the subatomic motion and vibration but freezing molecular motion.

    • You are right that a ball given a push moves along at a constant speed within the AZ environment, but still any movement should cause loss of energy, and how would this energy going out of the ball due to its movement be dissipated in AZ?

    • The resistance of opposing forces would surely come into play beyond the AZ environment, so the ball would slow down and finally come to a stop. This makes it possible for the outflowing gases of the Boomerang Nebula to move at 164 km/s, alright. But then according to the popular theory, the universe is ever expanding; I wonder how would this affect the near AZ environments in the universe.

    • What about the transmission of light and sound energy in AZ environment, for the Hindu scriptures say that the OmkAra is always heard throughout the Universe at all times and conditions.

    For some people, it may not be right to mix physics and metaphysics, but I would rather have a holistic view of the big picture.

    ---
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    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  3. #23
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    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    Namaste Saidevoji & Yajvan ji,

    Let me try to answer your questions :
    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    At Absloute temperature, the entropy is zero and all molecular motion (that involve energy) ceases. What about the motions/vibrations inside the atoms that constitute the molecules? If there is superconductivity and superfluidity, then what could happen to the electrons in the atoms? Would they stay in their orbits or be conducted along the huge spaces between the atoms?
    ====> The absolute temperature has nothing to do with the motion of the body. The state of the motion of the body would remain unchanged even on encountering the Absolute Temperature. This is, because the temperature is nothing but a measure of intensity of vibration of molecules which comes to standstill at absolute zero but the motion of an object is not affected by its molecular movement as long as the body acts as one object & molecules don't disperse.

    There is no effect on movement of electrons either at absolute temperature, otherwise all the electrons would collapse into the nucleus & matter would get destroyed. Yes, at this temperature the electrical resistance of the matter would drop to zero i.e. there will be no loss of energy in transmission of electrons (i.e. flow of electricity) from one point to the other.

    • You are right that a ball given a push moves along at a constant speed within the AZ environment, but still any movement should cause loss of energy, and how would this energy going out of the ball due to its movement be dissipated in AZ?
    In my opinion, if the body is moving in a straight line, the ball would keep its velocity intact.

    The resistance of opposing forces would surely come into play beyond the AZ environment, so the ball would slow down and finally come to a stop. This makes it possible for the outflowing gases of the Boomerang Nebula to move at 164 km/s, alright. But then according to the popular theory, the universe is ever expanding; I wonder how would this affect the near AZ environments in the universe.
    Even in AZ environment, there may be various forces acting on the body, say, the frictional forces, if the medium of movement is not pure space. The expansion of universe should also not affect the velocity of the body due to relativity effect (i.e. we are measuring all velocities & accelerations within the expanding universe).

    What about the transmission of light and sound energy in AZ environment, for the Hindu scriptures say that the OmkAra is always heard throughout the Universe at all times and conditions.
    Both Light & sound are forms of energy. However, light can travel even without medium but the sound must travel within a medium which is closely related with vibrations of molecules. So, there won't be any effect on speed of light. However, temperature does affect the motion of the molecules & so the velocity of sound would certainly get affected, but if sound energy is given into the medium, the AZ temperature can't be maintained in the first place.

    Please consider the above simply a humble try to answer your questions. It should not give an impression of my being an expert of Physics.

    Regards,

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  4. #24
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    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    Namaste Saidevoji,

    I was again thinking on this Absolute Zero & how things might behave in AZ environment. Scientifically,Absolute Zero cannot be reached. However, is it the sate of Brahman before creation ? May be, because any activity in AZ state will lead to raising the temperature to Non-AZ state.

    In fact, we cannot definitely say or predict what would be the state of affairs in AZ state. We simply don't know. All opinions are just opinions.


    Regards,

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #25
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    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    Namaste Devotee.

    You have given some good points to think about vis-a-vis my doubts, with perhaps good scientific accuracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    The absolute temperature has nothing to do with the motion of the body. The state of the motion of the body would remain unchanged even on encountering the Absolute Temperature. This is, because the temperature is nothing but a measure of intensity of vibration of molecules which comes to standstill at absolute zero but the motion of an object is not affected by its molecular movement as long as the body acts as one object & molecules don't disperse.
    In modern physics, heat is defined as "any transfer of energy from one body or system to another due to a difference in temperature." And temperature is a physical, therodynamic property. It is a measure related to the average kinetic energy of the atoms of the body or system.

    Now "kinetic energy of an object is the extra energy which it possesses due to its motion." A spacecraft until it reaches its orbital velocity is powered by chemical energy and heat but once it is there in orbit, its kinetic energy remains constant because there is almost no friction in space. When the spacecraft re-enters the earth's atmosphere, the kinetic energy is converted to heat.

    This means that motion is purely on account of kinetic energy, which in turn relates to temperature, and when the temperature is AZ, there would be no kinetic energy possessed by the molecules and consequently all molecular motion ceases. In this zero entropy condition, molecules would be held in their positions as in crystals, pure substances forming perfect crystals. Thus AZ is a completely frozen world!

    This is fine and understandable, but my question is about the motion and vibration of the subatomic particles, specially the electron, proton, and the neutron. The atoms in the molecule must need to maintain their shape and thermodynamic structure or else there will be PraLayA! When there is no kinetic energy because of the AZ temperature, what maintains the subatomic motion and vibration?

    Perhaps we have the answer in the example of a spacecraft orbiting the earth. It is not that there is no kinetic energy at AZ, but that the KE of subatomic particles would be held constant since the orbiting electrons would have reached their orbital velocities. Even as the gravitational pull of the earth maintains the spacecraft in orbit, so would the pull of the nucleus maintain the electrons in their orbits. Thus, while the world of AZ is a frozen world for molecular movement, it is perhaps an automated world in the case of atoms.

    The metaphysical point of these observations is that the Cosmic Consciousness is at play, maintaining and preserving the micro world of atoms and molecules at all times and temperatures. At AZ, since there is no external molecular movement, only subatomic movement and vibration, the whole world of AZ is in a balanced state of physical manifestation, and perhaps this is the Prakriti of SaMkhya before PuruSha interacted with it, using the carried over karmic seeds of the previous cycle of creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Scientifically,Absolute Zero cannot be reached. However, is it the sate of Brahman before creation ? May be, because any activity in AZ state will lead to raising the temperature to Non-AZ state.

    In fact, we cannot definitely say or predict what would be the state of affairs in AZ state. We simply don't know. All opinions are just opinions.
    All opinions are just opinions, I agree, and all predictions may be definite but then we learn giving a free rein to our mind; and who knows, some of our opinions and speculations might be part of valid metaphysical hypotheses! Since we are not scientists, we always have the advantage of trans-scientific thinking.
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    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  6. #26
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    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    I brought the following from another thread since i felt that it can serve a purpose here.

    Simex, in another thread, provided a nice pictorial depiction of truth as a continuum, which appears discrete due to its un-evenness.

    It is like wave-particle duality. One must eventually know the fabric that connects every low and high and also remains as the substratum for all shapes/names that are formed due to continuous unfoldment of the continuum called Brahman (homogeneous fabric).
    Further, the various shapes, hills, valleys, cliffs, shadows, bright spots, hot areas, cool areas, war, peace, love, hatred, etc etc. that are generated continously on the surface of substratum on account of continuous unfoldment/foldment of the fabric will indeed be chaos.

    If the powers did not assign names and meanings and sequences. In Svet. Upanishad, it is said that Lord institutes order in the midst of Chaos. He is the Buddhi in this chaos.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 11 May 2009 at 12:36 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  7. #27
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    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    Friends,

    In 'Times of India' today there are two interesting columns. One is 'Let's work out Love', by Steven Strogaz, Professor of Applied Mathematics at Cornell.

    The authour makes it very interesting, the flavour of which will vanish in my summary. But one can read the original on net. The summary goes like this.

    Newton, cryptically said "It is useful to solve differential equations". Which means that the Universe can be precisely understood in terms of differential equations. That was when Newton solved 2 Body problems with Sun and Planet. When Newton turned to solve 3 Body problem, with Sun, Planet, and Moon, He remarked "Headache". It was intractable and led to chaotic results.

    No one could do it and that led to the science of Chaotic Dynamics.

    The interesting part is that the present author salutes Newton, and says that TWO BODY LOVE SYSTEM can also be solved through differential equations, though the attributes would be many or almost infinite; such as two way reactions of moods in almost infinite array (reaction to one's own and reaction to the second body's mood). But still it could be done, as the author says.

    But in real life, the mathematics professor learned a hard way that it is chaos and un-solvable, when he found that in his own love affair, he has forgotten to factor-in his girlfriend's attraction for her previous lover.

    That made it a THREE BODY PROBLEM --- chaotic, intractable, and unpredicatable.

    I understand why the world is chaos and unknown to us: We are grappling with 'infinite body' problem, failing to solve the 'one spirit' solution.

    -----------------------------------

    The second article is by Osho on Evolution. The essay is an eye opener.

    It is not that the body of a Monkey will become Man with time. Osho clarifies that it is the soul that evolves and acquires a suitable body.

    Just beautiful, clear and precise. Yes, this is what Upanishad says.

    Osho further clarifies that Man still carries the animal instincts and some exhibit meekness and others ferociousness -- all depending on the past conditions of the soul. The full essay must be read.

    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 29 May 2009 at 11:48 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  8. #28
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    Re: Chaos and cosmos

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Take a ball and place it in an Absolute Zero environment
    We talked about absolute zero... this is a Nova program I watched on freezing, refrigeration, absolute zero, etc. Which assisted me in my (meager) understanding of this subject matter.


    It is very good i.e. well done, informative, etc. It is in-depth and gives plenty of info ... it is 1 hr 43 min long.
    If one wanted to know more about 'cold' and its genesis of our scientific knowledge of it, this may be for you:
    http://www.hulu.com/watch/63745/nova...on#s-p11-sa-i1

    praṇām
    рдпрддрд╕реНрддреНрд╡рдВ рд╢рд┐рд╡рд╕рдореЛрд╜рд╕рд┐
    yatastvaс╣Б ┼Ыivasamo'si
    because you are identical with ┼Ыiva

    _

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