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Thread: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

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    daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    Namasté

    This post asks questions about the following:
    • daiva दैव - destiny , fate , chance, divine power or will
    • daivayoga दैवयोग - the juncture of fate, fortune, or chance ; and/or the dispensation of fate ( this is also written daivayogaḥ)
    • yadṛcchā यदृच्छा -spontaneity, accident, chance or even self-will ; some may say yadṛcchayā which means by accident or unexpectedly.
    • saṁśaya संशय - uncertainty
    Chance, destiny, providence, divine intervention, saṃcita¹ karma and prārabhdha¹ karma ; the present selection of an action and its results either immediate or in the future. All these points of reference and influence are found in this life.

    How does one know where the fruit of an action comes from? Is the result based upon the current effort expended, or is it the fruit ( result ) of a past action? Is it by chance or ~luck~ ? How does one sort this out?


    Even Kṛṣṇa informs us in Bhāgavad gītā ( chapter 4, 17th śloka) - Unfathomable is the course of action. The word He uses is gahana गहन which means impenetrable , inexplicable , hard to understand (deep , dense , thick , impervious). IMO this unfathomable includes the complexity of where an action may stem from i.e.
    • ādhyāmika आध्यामिक - relating to self or soul.
    • ādhibhautika आधिभौतिक - belonging or relating to created beings or the surroundings of beings ~society~ .
    • ādhidaivika आधिदैविक - relating or preceeding from gods or spirits; (from adhideva) , relating to or proceeding from gods or from spirits ; proceeding from the influence of the atmosphere or graha (planets) , proceeding from divine or supernatural agencies
    Add to this a POV from the Yoga Vāsiṣṭa¹ . It talks of kākatālīya¹ on many occasions. That kākatālīya is the story of the crow and the palm tree. It goes like this:
    A crow alights (lands) on the top of a coconut palm tree. Upon its touch-down at the top, at that very moment, a ripe coconut detaches from its branch and falls to the ground. Two mutually exclusive events ( ~unrelated~) occur. An observer views this event in the same space and time and sees a relationship, yet in truth there was none. That is both events were independent of each other.

    We go through life and perform an action - sometimes that action brings great results, other times failure, grief, or little results. What then is occurring? Kākatālīya ? Chance? We as humans look for the connection, the inter-dependence of actions and sometimes they just may not be there.
    What part of past karma ( if at all) is coming to bear? How does one think of this in their daily life?

    Any opinions or views on this matter?

    praṇām

    words
    • saṃcita संचित (some write this saṇcita) - piled together , heaped up , gathered , collected , accumulated ; In this application, it means the sum total of all past actions ; also note the following word: saṃcit संचित् to agree together , be unanimous
    • prārabhdha प्रारब्ध commenced , begun , undertaken; one who has commenced or begun. Use here, in this application , it is that karma coming to fruition now
    • Vāsiṣṭa ( also written vāśiṣṭha) means owning or belonging to the sage vasiṣṭha
    • kākatālīya काकतालीय is kāka ( a crow) + tālī ( a tree) +ya (joining) : after the manner of the crow and the palm-fruit
    Last edited by yajvan; 29 November 2009 at 01:47 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #2
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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    Namasté
    • daiva दैव - destiny , fate , chance, divine power or will
    • daivayoga दैवयोग - the juncture of fate, fortune, or chance ; and/or the dispensation of fate ( this is also written daivayogaḥ)
    • yadṛcchā यदृच्छा -spontaneity, accident, chance or even self-will ; some may say yadṛcchayā which means by accident or unexpectedly.
    • saṁśaya संशय - uncertainty
    Chance, destiny, providence, divine intervention, saṃcita¹ karma and prārabhdha¹ karma ; the present selection of an action and its results either immediate or in the future. All these points of reference and influence are found in this life.


    • A man last year walked into an auto dealership to look at a car to buy. While standing next to a car he was viewing a jet engine that fell off a plane ( overhead) crashed through the roof and killed him upon impact.
    • A friend in New york ( Sept 11th, 2001) is not allowed to board a plane that would take her back to California. She is mad and upset with the Airline. That same plane crashes into the Towers in New York City.
    Examples of daivayoga दैवयोग - the juncture of fate, fortune, or chance -or- prārabhdha¹ karma ? Or are they one and the same?



    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #3

    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    I read a story once about a man who worked as a museum curator. He had many exhibitions in his museum, some lasted a few hours others days others months and years. He always had many exhibitions ongoing at the same time. Some of these exhibitions were forced upon the curator from outside agencies and due to his weak will he capitulated and ran the exhibitions. Some of the exhibitions he ran because it was his nature to prefer these exhibits. Now this curator became depressed and unhappy because these people from outside were forcing him to run these exhibits, that he had no wish to run to compensate he became slightly deluded and thought that he had actually originated these external exhibits and thought he liked them. Instead of managing this external exhibits and the people behind them, he prefered to go into a sort of deluded sleep.

    Here is the relevant part to this post of my story that I heard from someone. The curator had a manager who was very compassionate to all his staff. Now to all the curators exhibits that were his own, this manager arranged and organised with scientific precision where each item must be and for how long it must be in a specific place. When the curator put up a certain piece of furniture or an old painting the manager would decide for how long they would be there and also who could come and see them The manager who was connected with absolutely everyone, even arranged for only well-to-do people who had an affinity with the piece displayed by the curator to come and see the pieces. Thus the curators own exhibits were ruled by order and attracted like influences, due to the influence of the most benevolent manager.

    On the other hand the exhibitions that were enforced from outside were subject to many problems. First of all, because the curator did not put his heart into these exhibits many things used to fall and break. The exhibits were unpredictable. The Manager did not interfere with these exhibits he let them run how they wanted. These exhibits attracted all types of riff-raff. Drunks drug addicts and various other unpredictable people. Some people just come in to see the exhibits because they wanted to get out the cold. All in all people saw these exhibits not because they had an affinity to these exhibits but due to some chance coincidence.

    Another important point of this marvellous story is that the exhibits that were forced on the curator from outside, were very short in duration whereas the exhibits that were essential to him, they lasted for a long time. The sad part of this story is that the exhibits that were essential to the curator the ones he liked, were in the centre of the museum, surrounded by the other exhibits that the external forces had forced on him. People who wanted to see the CUrators real exhibits had to pass through all his fake ones. And the tragedy is that people or influences that were meant to reach his true exhibits were sometimes deflected away by the false ones.

    This story has a happy ending, the Curator was sent on a 'training course' by his manager. He was made known of this by the managers personal assistant who is based in the centre of the museum. This course was run by several of the managers close aquantances. They taught the curator ways in which to manage the external influences, the organisation of the museum, and the 'people' who walked through the museum. After this 'training' the curator kept the external influences under control and allowed the people who wanted to see his real exhibits to be exposed to them.

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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namast

    Quote Originally Posted by amra View Post
    I read a story once about a man who worked as a museum curator.
    An excellent post amra, thank you.

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    Namast

    If we look back to the original question on this post, it is asking
    How does one know where the fruit of an action comes from? Is the result based upon the current effort expended, or is it the fruit ( result ) of a past action? Is it by chance or ~luck~ ? How does one sort this out?
    Here is another POV one can consider. From where does my question come from? From the Bhāgavad gītā . Kṛṣṇa says the following in the Bhāgavad gītā (chapter 2, 47th śloka)
    karmai evādhikāras te
    mā phalesu kadācana
    mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr
    mā te sago'stv akarmai
    This says, you certainly (eva) have ādhikāra (claim , right , privilege, control) of your (te or ti) karmai (of your actions) , but never or not () of its fruits (phalesu) .
    The remaining words say in general live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction.

    This says you control the selection of your actions, but you do not control the potency or the result on how this action may turn out ( strong, weak, successful, meager, unsuccessful, etc). That is the
    crux of my question overall from the 1st posting.

    Lets assume there are a few areas of influence to the result of an action. I offered 6 or 7 ( I am sure there can be more):

    The Components
    Chance, destiny, providence, divine intervention, saṃcita karma (the aggregate of all karma up to that point) , prārabhdha karma (actions
    coming to fruition in this life), kriyāmana karma ( seeds of actions that are currently being placed i.e. net new actions).

    For simplicity lets remove one component - saṃcita karma (the aggregate of all karma up to that point). Why ? IMO this is who you
    are as of today, the sum total of all your past choices that make you, well ...you. If we take out saṃcita karma , then we have 6 components.

    Now, again to add some clarity ( I hope) lets keep it simple ; for this discussion lets assume the following:
    • Each reason for the result (phala or fruit) of an action is mutually exclusive . That means a result is caused by one component and one component only i.e. say chance and nothing else.
    • Each component have equal probabilities - that is, there are 6 componentsand each carry a probability of 16.6% of being the core reason for an end results potency (16.6% X 6 = 100%).
    Lets also define the potencies
    • Power: strong, middling (meager) and weak (weak also means no apparent result);
    • Quality: the result can be Favorable ( positive) and Unfavorable (negative) or Neutral neither favorable or unfavorable.
      So one can have a strong positive result ( Winning the lottery for $1 million) ; Weak yet positive result ( wins a portion
      of the lottery for $1 dollar). Like that, the variation can change for each result.
    Now can look at the number of permutations & combinations that are possible.

    Combinations
    6 possible components + 3 power levels + 3 quality levels . For this view I will combine(6 possible components + 3 power levels) = 9 component-power levels. The 9 then canthen give a result in 3 different quality levels (favorable, unfavorable or neutral). If we look
    at it this way, there are 84 possible combinations or origins that can occur from one action.
    Examples of combinations using this approach:
    • The fruit of an action is caused by Chance - that chance is powerful, and also gives a favorable result.
    • The fruit of an action is caused by Chance - that chance is powerful, and also gives an unfavorable result
    • The fruit of an action is caused by Chance - that chance is powerful, yet only gives a neutral result
    • This approach would then apply for Chance that is middling ( or meager) but gives a favorable, unfavorable or neutral result
    When you add all the combinations up - we would count 84 different ways the fruit of an action may have come into being.

    This IMHO is why this subject seems so interesting ( to me). It is my opinion amra, gives us a clue to the answer in his post # 3 above.

    praṇām

    words
    • ādhikāra अधिकार authority, rule , administration , jurisdiction , claim , right privilege , ownership
    • mā मा - nor, not , neither
    • te for iti इति - as you know ( this is my view only and not taken from any author).
    • karmaṇi कर्मणि - connected with or being in the action
    • phala फल - fruit, benefit, consequence , effect , result , gain or loss , reward or punishment , advantage or disadvantage.
    • saṃcita संचित(some write this saṇcita) - piled together , heaped up , gathered , collected , accumulated ; In this application, it meams the sum total of all past actions ; also note the following word: saṃcit संचित्to agree together , be unanimous
    • 84 possible combinations - the math (6+3)!/ [3! x (9-3)!]
    • Permutations
      6 possible components + 3 power levels + 3 quality levels = 479,001,600 permutations that can result (12 factorialed or 12!)
      Yet this approach seems unfair. A permutation is just the different ways set of events or objects can be arranged so they are not repeated i.e. a different order.
      Example: ABC can be arranged as BCA, or CAB or as BAC, etc. yet the basic ABC original letters are not new, just re-arranged.
      Hence permutations are not the proper fit for this conversation.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    Namast


    Dear Yajavan:
    It is interesting you like numbers and math and like to play with these. My take is Gods view has to be beyond numbers. The chance thing you describe is almost daily occurrence; most of us see both good and bad stuffs. Last month a very good friend of mine was diagnosed as having rare lung disease and she is facing a lung transplant. My young b in law was diagnosed to have brain tumor and recently died leaving a young family. My s in law in her 40s developed breast cancer and died within 2 years of the diagnosis. 10 year old very healthy boy from a happy family that I know went to bed and did not wake up in the morning. All these people were nice people and also were religious. There are so many of these kinds of real stories affecting real people. Bad Chance? Bad fate? Bad Karma ? Also some good things do occur, like so many people survived in disasters like 9/11, tsunami, etc.. . I get exposed to so many lethal bacteria and viruses. I am still alive. Thank God!! . Good Chance? Good fate? Good karma? Etc

    I found the answers in BG 2: 47 which I consider the Greatest Commandment by God written by Vyasa. Geetas simplified message is to do Swadharmic Action without seeking fruit of action.
    What I see is God according to Geeta taking a great risk in giving us full right/freedom to do whatever action; this could be good and bad. It is downright dangerous. But there is a purpose. The first two lines of this verse are very connected. evādhikāras te mā phalesu kadācana these are not separable. Geeta is saying Swadharma actions are to based not on fruit of action. Actions based on fruit of action are reward/result oriented and are CONDITIONAL. But Geeta says do actions with no reward meaning do actions unconditionally. What are unconditional actions? These are the actions of sacrificial in nature. These are the ones I pay due attention, I feel the responsibility, I put our mind and heart into these, and it costs me something, usually three commodities most precious to me my time, my energy and my money. Sacrificial actions do not carry any karmic baggage. Beautiful name for the sacrificial action is LOVE.
    Love does not manifest without freedom, Geeta knows that when it says evādhikāras. It takes the tremendous risk. Tsunami happens; people get diseases, air plane crashes, etc. If God, not giving freedom and starts controlling all these natural actions it becomes easier for me to manipulate Him. For things that happen in nature (Chance/fate) God knows them, but He purposely stays away telling us it is unfathomable. According to Geeta, Swadharmic actions with full of Love, Bhavana and sacrifice melt Karmas away, which is equavent to to Akarma or Inaction.
    Love.........VC

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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namast VC,
    thank you for your post , you write:


    Quote Originally Posted by vcindiana View Post
    What I see is God according to Geeta taking a great risk in giving us full right/freedom to do whatever action; this could be good and bad. It is downright dangerous.
    Can you help me understand what risk the Lord has? As I see it 'risk' is when you do not know the outcome of an event. What is there that the Lord does not know? Today, tomorrow or a million years from this moment (omniscience)? A blade of grass doe not move without His knowing.


    Recall what the Bhāgavad gītā informs us in Chapter 3, 27th & 28th śloka-s. It is the guna-s acting upon and within the guna-s. This must be considered when one considers 'chance' and our actions. We choose the action and how this unfolds and the potency of the results is not our choice , yet many think it is.

    Yet - this is where the math helps... it only allows us to try and track and understand nature a bit better. Like any tool it has its strengths and weaknesses.


    praṇām


    references
    Omniscience HDF post if one is interested: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2363
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté VC,
    thank you for your post , you write:

    Can you help me understand what risk the Lord has? As I see it 'risk' is when you do not know the outcome of an event. What is there that the Lord does not know? Today, tomorrow or a million years from this moment (omniscience&#185? A blade of grass doe not move without His knowing.
    Dear Yajavan: I wish there is the word “RISK” in Geeta, perhaps it is implied in this verse (2:47) which I consider the greatest commandment to all humankind. Help me please, if you can find an equivalent word in Sanskrit or in any Indian language.
    Don’t you think God has taken tremendous risk in giving the right/freedom when Geeta says “You CERTAINLY have the right “? What if He has not given the right, then all the actions will be at his commands. We all will be just puppets. We will be like robots or just some mechanical things. He can cure cancer. He can stop Tsunami. Reminds me of Santa clause, we need to be good boys and girls. We do not have to sweat, food will automatically drop on our dinner plates .We do not have to drive, and God does all the driving. etc etc ..etc... (I know Atanu will remind me that I am not a doer, let me come to that later)
    Don’t you think by granting full rights to us God takes the tremendous risk that we can abuse these rights? We can get mad and even kill people. Just like Good, Evil is fully allowed. He knows Good or the bad are relative things. For Him Pain and Pleasure are just in a spectrum. He knows pain hurts, bad things hurt, good things bring happiness. But by granting full rights He cannot stop people getting hurt or killed. (But He does help the Healing) This is God’s high risk business. Downright dangerous. But He knows the purpose.
    What I find amazing is that the verse continues saying ….to do the action without seeking the fruit. This means whatever the actions we need to do have to be unselfish and unconditional. Vyasa is very clever in not defining what is a good and what is a bad action. He knows this is murky. (My favorite question is How good (or bad) is good (or bad) enough?).
    We can go on.................
    Love...................VC
    Last edited by vcindiana; 13 April 2009 at 09:54 PM.

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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namast VC,

    Quote Originally Posted by vcindiana View Post
    Dont you think God has taken tremendous risk in giving the right/freedom when Geeta says You CERTAINLY have the right ? What if He has not given the right, then all the actions will be at his commands.
    I do not see any risk, none at all. Risk suggests there could be failure or an outcome that is not welcomed or uncalculated. Risk, negative outcomes, etc. are part of the relative field of life, the life of the 3 guna-s.

    Kṛṣṇa tells us to be without that. That means not to put that behind you, but to open one's self to the full view of life.
    The upaniṣads inform us that only seeing that part of life is viewing 180 of life and not a 360 view.

    Once this full view is established one will find there is no faults, no risk, etc. but all things are an extention of one's SELF. So say the wise.
    Where then can be the risk if there is not another? Risk takes 2 ( or more) to occur. Risk suggests that 'another' will not perform or give results or fail... yet if there is not '2' where then can this risk hide?

    This is what the Bhāgavad gītā suggests one considers - nothing about risk, every thing about fullness - this is Brahman. If Brahman is the sum total of all , where is there 2? Where is there a place for risk from the Lord to occur? Risk may suggest loss, and a loss of fullness - this is impossible for Brahman- lost to whom? There is only One, and this is sattā (Being).

    It is when we think there is there are more then 2, that fear, risk, loss arises. This is not my wisdom but that of the the following:

    Bṛhadaraṇyaka Upaniṣad - Puruṣavidha-Brāhmaṇa, 2nd śloka.
    dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati

    Any time there is a sense of 2, fear arises i.e. Fear is born of duality.
    • dvitiyad or dvitia द्वित- 2nd or two
    • bhayam or bhaya भय- fear , alarm dread apprehension
      ( rooted in bhī to fear for , be anxious about )
    • vai an emphasis and affirmation , generally placed after a word
      and laying stress on it (it is usually translatable by 'indeed' ,
      'truly' , 'certainly' )
    • bhavati or bhava भव arising or produced from , being in
    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namast VC,



    I do not see any risk, none at all.
    praṇām
    Dear Yajavan: I do respect your excellent points. Thank you.

    Following is only my personal observation. I see God as full 360 degree freedom and I express my own thoughts with humility and not trying to downplay others. To me this very verse implies risk. When I read this verse superficially I was asked to do an action without seeking a return or reward. How absurd is this? Where is the incentive? Is there logic into this? But Geeta says jump off the boat whether I float or drown. Isnt it risky? Arjuna was asked to fight regardless he won or not. He was not assured a winning ticket. As per Geeta Arjuna himself was not hundred percent sure that he would defeat the enemies. Krishna tells him to just fight using his own talents, education and experience (Swadharma). This does imply to me to take Risk by Krishna.

    Risk may be a human term that I can understand. I agree there is no such thing as a God sitting there and actually weighing the risks and benefits. As a human being it is the best way I can understand just like putting gender or image to God. I see risk all the time. Believing God itself is a Risk but I think it is worth it. Life is filled with risk, when I fly or drive I take risk, no guarantee that I would be 100 percent safe. Risk is unavoidable at least in my life. Only in risk taking I become stronger, more courageous, boldly venture into exciting places I can only dream about, learn new things and Grow (Vikasa). This BG verse (2:47) deeply inspires me.
    I see risk is not about duality even though it may sound that way, it is something we all take in our everyday life and some of us take lot more. Love is Risky. People have risked their lives to save some one else.

    You are right that Risk is part of Gunas. I need to have these Gunas to start with. Geeta takes an immense effort to describe individual Gunas to make me understand where I am and what I am doing. I wonder what would have happened without any Gunas in this world. What is the purpose of these well defined Gunas? I know Geeta calls me to come away from all Gunas. That is the ideal, but not a reality for the simple reason that once I reach the Ideal (Moksha/End) then what do I do, where is the Growth then? How can I love some one? I do not have a clue. But I need to risk and keep climbing. I guess I am in a good company like you.

    Love.VC

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