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Thread: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

  1. #11
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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté VC,
    Following is only my personal observation. I see God as full 360 degree freedom and I express my own thoughts with humility and not trying to downplay others. To me this very verse implies risk.
    I wonder what would have happened without any Gunas in this world. What is the purpose of these well defined Gunas? I know Geeta calls me to come away from all Gunas. That is the ideal, but not a reality for the simple reason that once I reach the Ideal (Moksha/End) then what do I do, where is the Growth then?
    I am impressed with your thinking here, you are going deeper and wider - very enjoyable to read.

    you mention
    I wonder what would have happened without any Gunas in this world.
    This is do-able and not a fanciful idea or concept.
    The 'ideal' here is something that is attainable. Yet it is not done by effort, the same way you would move a boulder, or hit a home run, or save for a home. It is done by experiencing pure awareness, the SELF. The field of the SELF is devoid of the 3 guna-s. That is why Kṛṣṇa informs us to be without them... if you are without them, then where can you be?
    1. In samādhi
    2. Established in samādhi ( Brahman) - some call Cosmic Consciousness
    3. Established in God Consciousness

    Yet these sound so high-flying and esoteric - it starts with simply experiencing the silence that is in you , in all of us. All are welcomed to the silence - no one has a monopoly on this. This , some call, the 4th, or turiya. Yet in the beginning , we need to close the eyes to begin the process. Is there other ways? Sure.

    Can any one do it ? Sure. Just like getting into an elevator and pressing the 10th floor, you do not need to be a mechanical engineer to know how the motor and pulley's all work to get to the tenth floor, you just press the button and you are off. Same with experiencing the Silence, turiya. You find the capable teacher and he/she will assist you.
    Just like diving into the pool (of silence) - you just take the proper angle next to the pool and you go right in. It is just knowing the right angle of diving into the pool and diving is possible - there is no need to know the physics of gravity, the geometry of the angles of incidence and refraction, all that. We find the instructor , he points to the pool, gives you a few lessons and you are off.

    Like that, turiya can be experienced. It not just for the yogi, but for all who wish to expand and experience this fullness - and then one is practicing what Kṛṣṇa is telling us. very simple.

    praṇām
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    Namaskar Yajvan,

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    Like that, turiya can be experienced. It not just for the yogi, but for all who wish to expand and experience this fullness - and then one is practicing what Kṛṣṇa is telling us. very simple.

    praṇām
    You make it all sound so easy.
    satay

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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    Quote Originally Posted by vcindiana View Post
    ----We do not have to sweat, food will automatically drop on our dinner plates .We do not have to drive, and God does all the driving. etc etc ..etc... (I know Atanu will remind me that I am not a doer, let me come to that later)
    VC
    Namaste VC,

    No. No. You got the whole thing wrong.

    We all have to toil for satisfying our bodily needs and hungers, till we are bodies.

    But Shri Krishna, as the final commandment teaches Arjuna: Know that you are not a doer (have you not read it?). I intuit that the acts of appeasing the hungers and desires of the body and mind and subsequent heavy moaning, panting, and sweating will appear similar as eating a piece of hot bread in dream and scalding the palate.

    Please do not mix the concepts of our bonded mind with what Shri Krishna teaches of the free atman, which is non-doer, taintless, immortal. (I know that you are tied to waking life impressions so strongly that you do not even read what atanu writes).

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté
    I wrote
    We go through life and perform an action - sometimes that action brings great results, other times failure, grief, or little results. What then is occurring? Kākatālīya ? Chance? We as humans look for the connection, the inter-dependence of actions and sometimes they just may not be there.
    What part of past karma ( if at all) is coming to bear? How does one think of this in their daily life?

    I was thinking... Lets say a person does something that was not life supporting (adharma&#185, perhaps bad, an injustice such as killing another. This karmic seed has been planted.

    Now this person is really sorry , repentful in heart and mind. This too is another action , karma that takes place. What effect ( if any) does the sorry and repentful play? does it make the initial action's results less severe? does it mitigate the issue?

    It seems to be a thing with humans that when a transgression occurs, saying you are sorry is the right thing to do. Yet what does it accomplish? What 'baggage' is dropped by this action?

    Any thoughts on this ?

    praṇām

    words
    adharma अधर्म - unrighteousness , injustice , irreligion , wickedness
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté
    I wrote

    I was thinking... Lets say a person does something that was not life supporting (adharma&#185, perhaps bad, an injustice such as killing another. This karmic seed has been planted.

    Now this person is really sorry , repentful in heart and mind. This too is another action , karma that takes place. What effect ( if any) does the sorry and repentful play? does it make the initial action's results less severe? does it mitigate the issue?

    It seems to be a thing with humans that when a transgression occurs, saying you are sorry is the right thing to do. Yet what does it accomplish? What 'baggage' is dropped by this action?

    Any thoughts on this ?
    Dear Yajavan: I am sure you know the answer.

    For me BG CH 9 verses 30 and 31 answer this dilemma. Even if a man of the vilest conduct worships me with exclusive devotion, he should be considered a saint/righteous for he has rightly resolved. Next it goes on to say …….Swiftly/speedily he becomes virtuous and secures lasting peace. My devotee never falls.
    My observations: All stand equal before God. A saint or a chandala is equal to Him. But the person who is devoted and open minded will see the God revealing. All sins are due to Avidya, when a person does a wrong thing, he has done it so because he did not know it was wrong. ( JC just before dying asks God to forgive his killers as these people did not what they were doing.) When he sincerely comes to know his mistakes and open his heart to God, God accepts him speedily without any probationary period! Wow, this is something a human being cannot do. This is the extent of ? Irrational and unconditional Love of God. Love is a powerful destroyer of Karmas.

    Love………………VC
    Last edited by vcindiana; 20 April 2009 at 10:54 PM.

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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste VC,

    No. No. You got the whole thing wrong.

    We all have to toil for satisfying our bodily needs and hungers, till we are bodies.......................


    Please do not mix the concepts of our bonded mind with what Shri Krishna teaches of the free atman, which is non-doer, taintless, immortal. (I know that you are tied to waking life impressions so strongly that you do not even read what atanu writes).

    Om
    Dear Atanu: I am new to BG.


    Doership as I understand carries Karma. Actions for Non Karma yogi and karma yogi are same. The difference is, one goes for fruit of action and other not. The actions performed by KarmaYogi is not binding, no condition attached. Action without any condition has to be sacrificial. This is Love. Actions performed with full feeling or “Bhavane” becomes so lighter I feel as though I am not doing the action. Soon I will drift into beautiful nondoership. Most of us have experienced, when there is so much stress or dead line to meet etc we feel the action very burdensome. It becomes a lot lighter when I do not have these restrictions or when I am not worried about my performance. I interpret BG Ch 2:69 as “Karma Yogi sleeps to the Fruit of action! “. (Nondoership)

    One other way I understand about Nondoership is the sense of gratitude/reverence to wards our God.( A higher authority) I know I do the work but I thank God for the knowledge, skill, talents, insight, strength, inspiration etc God has given me to do the right thing. I do this by not claiming my doership.
    Love…………..VC

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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    Quote Originally Posted by vcindiana View Post
    Dear Atanu: I am new to BG.


    This is Love. Actions performed with full feeling or “Bhavane” becomes so lighter I feel as though I am not doing the action. Love…………..VC
    Namaste VC,

    I agree that possibly none of us here is a Jnani to the extent of being a non-doer. We all feel pressure of work (me most). But I will repeat that it is neither true nor a question of mere feeling. That the Atman is not the doer is brahmasatyam, as below:

    Chapter 18 Gita


    14. The body, the doer, the various senses, the different functions of various sorts, and the presiding Deity, also, the fifth,


    15. Whatever action a man performs by his body, speech and mind, whether right or the reverse, these five are its causes.


    16. Now, such being the case, he who, owing to untrained understanding, looks upon his Self, which is isolated, as the agent, he of perverted intelligence, sees not.


    17. He who is ever free from the egoistic notion, whose intelligence is not tainted by (good or evil), though he slays these people, he slayeth not, nor is he bound (by the action).

    This indeed is the simplest truth, yet the hardest to believe. On realisation of this, all vain glory of all accomplishments/money/beauty/power will vanish into thin air -- so, it does not find a place in most christian/dvaita bound mind.

    This simple truth is not welcome at all for immature minds. And Shri Krishna also warns that immature minds should not be disturbed. But you are already into Gita, so you are well prepared to absorb this in time.

    But it is hard to give up the illusion of ego by any human, as even Vishnu is said to have suffered from this illusion. Vishnu being all, none of us is free from the illusion of ego ---- but we can pray to Vishnu for illumination and freedom.


    Regards

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  8. #18
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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté

    VC writes
    Actions for Non Karma yogi and karma yogi are same. The difference is, one goes for fruit of action and other not.
    I continue to read the POV's offered, yet I scratch my head. The teaching of Kṛṣṇa is to go beyond the field of action and operate from there. How can you go beyond the field of action? By being established in sattā, Being, the SELF. It is not a mood of ' oh I feel I am not acting and I really do not have a goal; I am not attached to the fruits of my action '', this is mood making. This is not the teaching offered by Madhusūdana (Kṛṣṇa).

    Kṛṣṇa is teaching Arjuna skill in action. Become established in yoga (union of the Divine, of the Supreme, of sattā). - yogasta kuru karmāi ( chapter 2 , 48 śloka) is the vidhi¹ (formula or injunction) offered.
    This is a completely new operating system - like going from DOS 2.0 to Unix - it’s on a whole new level in how one functions - it is not a mood, a style , or pretending.

    It is good to remember - why is there a fight occurring anyway on the field of the Kuru-s? It is because Duryodhana's¹ desire to possess more and preserve the possessions he has already obtained. Kṛṣṇa is teaching how to be in one's natural state of Being where desires ( for more and more) are just not relevent, a state of balance, beyond duality.

    He wishes to inform Arjuna of this skill. What is the skill? If you are established in Being, sattā, you are then beyond the 3 guna-s ( chapter 2, 45th śloka) which harbor duality, change and flux.

    This condition then of Being is established in purity, independent of possessions, and possessed of the SELF , says Kṛṣṇa.
    One is freed from the field of duality - this is where the turmoil resides. One is tossed about like a ship on the ocean with no
    rudder - pushed from one wave to another. The guna-s have their play with you.

    Why does Keśava mention 'independent of possessions' ? They no longer have their sway on the person. One is beyond possessions, there is no need to aquire.

    The key word used by Kṛṣṇa is niryogakṣema. It suggests that in this state of Being one free from the nagging thoughts of gaining what one does not have or even preserving the possessions one may have at the time.

    This is where one not fully established sattā may think, 'oh I will act, but not put my mind on the final result, I wish to not gain a possession ' . This is not clear thinking nor the instruction offered by Kṛṣṇa. What is the instruction? Yogasta kuru karmāi , then all else comes automatically.

    praṇām

    words
    • vidhi विधि- a rule , formula , injunction , ordinance , statute , precept , law , direction
    • niryogakṣema - niryoga निर्योगa rope for tieing cows + kṣema क्षेम- giving rest, peace - The notion
      is being tied (niryoga) to possessions and giving rest, peace to this ( kema ) .
    • nir = nis = without or free from + yoga is attaching or binding + kema ( giving rest)
    • Duryodhana the eldest son of Dhṛtarāṣṭra and leader of the kauravas in their war with the pāṇḍava.
    Last edited by yajvan; 21 April 2009 at 12:15 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #19
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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté

    VC writes

    I continue to read the POV's offered, yet I scratch my head. ....
    Kṛṣṇa is teaching Arjuna skill in action. Become established in yoga (union of the Divine, of the Supreme, of sattā). - yogasta kuru karmāi ( chapter 2 , 48 śloka) is the vidhi¹ (formula or injunction) offered.
    This is a completely new operating system - like going from DOS 2.0 to Unix - it’s on a whole new level in how one functions - it is not a mood, a style , or pretending.

    ...........................
    praṇām
    Dear Yajavan:

    Please let me know whether this thread is going somewhere.

    My thoughts (with humility) about BG 2: 48 (Yoga of Equanimity)
    This forum is the place where we post our ideas, concepts, comments etc... These are all the actions. What is the purpose of these actions? Don’t we like to see fruits of all these writings/actions? I do not know about you, I love to see my posts are read and liked and even loved by all of you. It will be nice I get rewarded! The ego element automatically enters my brain, thanks to Krishna for gifting me with Gunas. My point is Gunas are very part of human being. Only in Gunas we like some posts and we dislike some other posts to the point every one of us have expressed at least in a subtle way our displeasures criticizing on others comments.

    The word equanimity, which is beyond Gunas, does not mean to completely ignore the Gunas, good or bad, but to put all these on the table. I do not think all knowing God gave us Gunas without purpose. There is no life without Gunas. It is up to me to make the best decision without factoring emotion. I consider this is like deliberating after a due diligence. There is RISK involved, the result may not be in my favor, but it is OK. What I sense from Geeta is that all it matters is whether I carefully considered all the options, good or bad or even ugly. (This is something I do in my “right or freedom” Geeta mentions in the previous verse 2: 47.) and whether I exercised my equanimity to the best of my ability. I need to consider my own brain as a court of law and myself as the judge before I commit to an action. Yoga for me is nothing but to get trained (Sadhana) and act like loving God who is the author of equanimity.

    Love.................VC

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    Re: daivayoga, chance, karma & fate

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste VC,

    I agree that possibly none of us here is a Jnani to the extent of being a non-doer. We all feel pressure of work (me most).

    Dear Atanu:

    Your human side is nicely reflected here, as you state you feel the pressure of work most. (Me most) I am not sure there is any one in this world who does not feel the pressure. It is interesting in spite of your higher knowledge (in Geeta) which I admire; you admit stress of life does take a toll on you. That is the mark of your humility.

    Love………………. VC

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