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Thread: Geeta's Interpretation

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    Geeta's Interpretation

    Dear Friends: This is the quote from the administrator of this forum: “Not only Hindus have the right to criticize, condemn, complain about the nonsense foolish good for nothing missionaries and their agenda but the Lord has clearly instructed all to annihilate the adharmic forces. Since missionaries are adharmic forces in India, these should be annihilated with force. My opinion is that it is every hindu's swadharma to remove adharmic forces. Since missionary activity is adharmic force, it should be removed


    He may be right. Please do not take me wrong. I do denounce some of the evangelistic activities. I am just curious to know the validity of this quote on the basis of Bhagwad Geeta. Does Geeta really teach like this?
    Love.............VC

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    Re: Geeta's Interpretation

    namaskar vc,

    Quote Originally Posted by vcindiana View Post
    I do denounce some of the evangelistic activities.
    Love.............VC
    Would you be so kind to share with the us the activities of evangelists that you do not denounce.

    In other words, what activities of the evangelists you feel should not be denounced.

    For example, I denounce ALL of their missionary activities and all of their efforts to rape an annihilate a culture. Don't you?
    satay

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    Re: Geeta's Interpretation

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaskar vc,

    Would you be so kind to share with the us the activities of evangelists that you do not denounce.

    In other words, what activities of the evangelists you feel should not be denounced.

    For example, I denounce ALL of their missionary activities and all of their efforts to rape an annihilate a culture. Don't you?
    Dear Satay:

    For me it is not just a matter of denouncing any one whom I do not agree with his way however bad it might be. I am not just trying to be nice by stating that the people who have done wrong things because they did not know what they were doing, I guess BG makes it clear that it is out of ignorance or Avidya and JC also said this when he was dying and he asked forgiveness from God on their behalf.

    I understand your reasons for hating these misguided people. Don’t you think it is out of your emotions? Can you really annihilate all these missionary people? Does BG clearly say like what you stated? How did Gandhi make the British (you may call them Adharmic) quit India in spite of his weak physical personality ?

    Love…………..VC

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    Re: Geeta's Interpretation

    namaskar vc,


    Quote Originally Posted by vcindiana View Post
    I understand your reasons for hating these misguided people.


    Hmm...that is strange because I don't actually 'hate' anyone. Just because I think missionary force in India is adharmic doesn't mean that I 'hate' the people who spread this nonsense or those who do not denounce it. You are jumping to conclusions and putting words in my mouth. This reminds of westerners labeling every hindu that speaks about adharmic forces as a extremist or hindutva. Please do not do that.

    But since you mention that you understand the reasons...I am curious about what you think those reasons are. can you share with us?

    And you have successfully avoided my original question. So here it is again.

    In post 1 you said the following

    I do denounce some of the evangelistic activities


    Which activities of theirs do you denouce? and which ones you do not.

    satay

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    Re: Geeta's Interpretation

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaskar vc,
    [/font][/color]
    Hmm...that is strange because I don't actually 'hate' anyone. Just because I think missionary force in India is adharmic doesn't mean that I 'hate' the people who spread this nonsense or those who do not denounce it. You are jumping to conclusions and putting words in my mouth. This reminds of westerners labeling every hindu that speaks about adharmic forces as a extremist or hindutva.
    But since you mention that you understand the reasons...I am curious about what you think those reasons are. can you share with us?
    And you have successfully avoided my original question. So here it is again.
    In post 1 you said the following

    [/size][/font]

    Which activities of theirs do you denouce? and which ones you do not.

    Dear Satay: I try not to be emotional here and I am asking you for the clarification.
    First of all I am sorry I used the word denounce as I got carried away in my emotion. It should have been “some thing I do not agree” with what some of these evangelicals have done in changing the local cultures as you already pointed out. I have no problem with the evangelicals who by definition are the bringer of good news that God loves every one irrespective of who He /she is. In that spirit if they do build feeding centers, Hospitals and schools there is nothing wrong. I am sure many people in India including myself regardless of being nonchristian have benefitted in their service.
    I am sorry I used the word ‘Hate’ as I interpreted your statement “the Lord has clearly instructed all to annihilate the adharmic forces. Since missionaries are adharmic forces in India, these should be annihilated with force.” I do not know whether westerners hate Hindus by labeling Hindutwa.
    Now Satay, it is your turn if you do care to answer to my very first question of this thread.. Does Geeta teach all Hindus to annihilate the missionaries as you stated? Is the purpose of Geeta to eliminate the enemies and live happily forever?

    Also I need to ask you why great people like Gandhi, Vinobha, Radhakrishnan, Rajaji, Vivekananda, Yajavan, and Atanu have quoted Bible words in spite of being well grounded in SD?
    Love..........VC

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    Re: Geeta's Interpretation

    namaskar Vc,

    Thanks for the reply.
    Quote Originally Posted by vcindiana View Post
    I have no problem with the evangelicals who by definition are the bringer of good news that God loves every one irrespective of who He /she is. In that spirit if they do build feeding centers, Hospitals and schools there is nothing wrong.
    Thanks for sharing. However, I do have a problem with the so called 'good news' brought under the guise of 'social service'. In my opinion this is even worse than someone bringing out the 'good news' openly. Even Gandhi said that the social work of christians is not in the true spirit. Any social work done with the spirit of 'getting something back' is not something to be proud about. It's just a business transaction. Those christians that bring the 'good news' by hiding it under the social service guise are simply business men. Thus the social service cannot be good for the locals if one looks at the bigger picture. Everyone including you should have a 'problem' with anyone trying to rape a culture by providing such social service. Anyhow, I digress as you seem to have a soft spot for the missionaries.

    I am sure many people in India including myself regardless of being nonchristian have benefitted in their service.
    I am sorry I used the word ‘Hate’ as I interpreted your statement “the Lord has clearly instructed all to annihilate the adharmic forces. Since missionaries are adharmic forces in India, these should be annihilated with force.”
    Ah, I see how you got confused about the above statement. There is word missing from it. It is the missionary 'activity' that needs to be annihilated with force not the actual 'missionaries'. My apologies if I hurt your sentiments regarding the actual missinaries. You seem to be impressed with their social services.

    Now Satay, it is your turn if you do care to answer to my very first question of this thread.. Does Geeta teach all Hindus to annihilate the missionaries as you stated? Is the purpose of Geeta to eliminate the enemies and live happily forever?
    You already know my position.

    Also I need to ask you why great people like Gandhi, Vinobha, Radhakrishnan, Rajaji, Vivekananda, Yajavan, and Atanu have quoted Bible words in spite of being well grounded in SD?
    Love..........VC
    I wish I could help but you are asking the wrong guy. I am none of these people you listed. Having said that I don't have a problem with quoting the maleccha scripture. In fact, quotes from it might help when talking to the peasants as that scripture is meant for the peasants. And I don't mean peasants that work in a field...


    FYI. Here is something from the The Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi, Volume 39, New Delhi, 1970

    Bolding mine.
    It was more than I could believe that Jesus was the only incarnate son of God, and that only he who believed in him would have everlasting life. If God could have sons, all of us were his sons. If Jesus was like God or God Himself, their all men were like God and could be God Himself. My reason was not ready to believe literally that Jesus by his death and by his blood redeemed the sins of the world. Metaphorically there might be some truth in it. Again, according to Christianity only human beings had souls, and not other living beings, for whom death meant complete extinction, while I held a contrary view. I could accept Jesus as a martyr, as an embodiment of sacrifice and a divine teacher, but not as the most perfect man ever born. His death on the cross was a great example to the world, but that there was anything like a mysterious or miraculous virtue, in it my heart could not accept.

    The pious lives of Christians did not give me anything that the lives of men of other faiths had failed to give. I had seen in other lives just the same reformation that I had heard of among the Christians. Philosophically there was nothing extraordinary in Christian principles. From the point of view of sacrifice, it seemed that the Hindus greatly surpassed Christians. It was impossible for me to regard Christianity as a perfect religion or the greatest of all religions.
    And Gandhi's position on missionary nonsense cannot be any clearer than this.

    Bold mine.

    The Harijan dated March 29, 1935 published an interview which Gandhiji had given to a Christian missionary before March 22. The missionary asked Gandhiji what was the most effective way of preaching the gospel of Christ, for that was his mission. Gandhiji replied, To live the gospel is the most effective way - most effective in the beginning, in the middle and in the end. Preaching jars on me and makes no appeal to me, and I get suspicious of missionaries who preach. But I love those who never preach but live the life according to their lights. Their lives are silent yet most effective testimonies... If, therefore, you go on serving people and ask them also to serve, then they would understand. But you quote instead John 3, 16 and ask them to believe it. That has no appeal to me, and I am sure people will not understand it. Where there has been acceptance of the gospel through preaching, my complaint is that there has been some motive. The missionary said that we also see it and try our best to guard against it. Gandhiji observed, But you can't guard against it. One sordid motive vitiates the whole preaching. It is like a drop of poison which fouls the whole food. Therefore I should do without preaching at all. A rose does not need to preach. it simply spreads its fragrance The fragrance of religious and spiritual life is much finer and subtler than that of the rose.
    More on Missionary nonsense


    The Harijan dated May 11, 1935 published an interview given by Gandhiji to a missionary nurse before that date. The nurse asked him, Would you prevent missionaries coming to India in order to baptise?

    Gandhiji replied, If I had power and could legislate, I should certainly stop all proselytising. It is the cause of much avoidable conflict between classes and unnecessary heart-burning among the missionaries.

    In Hindu households the advent of a missionary has meant the disruption of the family coming in the wake of change of dress, manners, language, food and drink. The nurse commented, Is it not the old conception you are referring to? No such thing is now associated with proselytisation. Gandhiji was well-informed about missionary methods. He said, The outward condition has perhaps changed but the inward mostly remains the same. Vilification of Hindu religion, though subdued, is there. If there was a radical change in the missionaries outlook, would Murdoch's books be allowed to be sold in mission depots? Are those books prohibited by missionary societies? There is nothing but vilification of Hinduism in those books. You talk of the conception being no longer there.

    The other day a missionary descended on a famine area with money in his pocket, distributed it among the famine-stricken, converted them to his fold, took charge of their temple and demolished it. This is outrageous. The temple could not belong to the converted, and it could not belong to the Christian missionary. But this friend goes and gets it demolished at the hands of the very men who only a little while ago believed that God was there

    The nurse took shelter behind the Bible. But, Mr. Gandhi, she asked, why do you object to proselytisation? Is not there enough in the Bible to authorise us to invite people to a better way of life?

    Gandhiji replied, If you interpret your texts in the way you seem to do, you straightaway condemn a large part of humanity unless it believes as you do.... And cannot he who has not heard the name of Jesus Christ do the will of the Lord?
    Dear VC, such is the wisdom of Gandhi.
    Thanks VC.
    Last edited by satay; 29 April 2009 at 11:59 PM.
    satay

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    Re: Geeta's Interpretation

    Dear VC,

    Above there is an excellent complilation of Gandhi ji's views on Missionary activities. Since my name came up in the thread, i thought that i would place my views as well (as if it matters).

    First, i will not generalise.

    Second, Jesus taught "Blind should not lead blind" and "Remove plank from your eyes before you remove speck from your brother's eyes". This teaching has no contradiction with our position that Brahma Jnanis alone are fit to teach. Jesus did not give permission to preach/convert/allure/coerce, all of which characterise missionary activity anywhere -- in general. There may be exceptions here and there.

    In this respect, I will bring to your kind notice the thread "A laugh", wherein we saw how Christian theologians who write books etc. are themselves in darkest dark (may be intentionally) of 'Dead Sea' and 'Zion'. Do they have the right to preach/convert/coerce/bribe?

    Most Hindu Dharma teachers are averse to mass teaching. They will give a specific medicine to specific ailing person. They are also averse to pro-active egoistic actions -- since these do no good. The egoistic so-called pro-active actions that the world (and western world especially) hold in high esteem, is not recommended here. They only create complications. Krishna teaches "Sankalpa free work". On another level, hard core advaita gurus do not even recognise external problems. They teach devotees to work for their own chitta suddhi first, since the Universe according to them is nothing but the seer's mind. You will hopefully agree that this principle is similar to 'Removing plank' from one's own eyes first.

    With my discussion with SM, I have gained a perspective. If one encounters a problem in environment what one should do? Do whatever is necessary without sankalpa and in accordance with the role accorded. A soldier will fight. A clerk will do something else and a teacher will teach. A sadhu will meditate. But every one must remember God/Self -- its wrath and its love.

    Another aspect which comes in here is the Krishna's teaching: Nothing purifies as the fire of knowledge. This teaching seems easy but is actually complicated. How is knowledge a FIRE? What I wish to highlight is that a sword is not a stronger fire than subtle knowledge/wisdom.

    I agree with you whole heartedly on one point. Guru Ramana teaches that Jnana and Bhakti are not two things. Love and Wisdom are one. Any action undertaken with love should result in good but love without wisdom may be blind. From wisdom flows pure love.

    But that is not the case with missionary activities -- mostly. It is also true that not all actions of ours (Hindus) flow from wisdom but Hindus can never be blamed for aggression.


    Ultimately, however, the actions, based on ignorance (mAya) will ever continue and complicate things, untill one frees oneself of mAya.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Geeta's Interpretation

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Dear VC,

    I agree with you whole heartedly on one point. Guru Ramana teaches that Jnana and Bhakti are not two things. Love and Wisdom are one. Any action undertaken with love should result in good but love without wisdom may be blind. From wisdom flows pure love.................
    But that is not the case with missionary activities -- mostly. It is also true that not all actions of ours (Hindus) flow from wisdom but Hindus can never be blamed for aggression.
    Om Namah Shivaya
    Dear Atanu: Thank you for your nice post.

    I guess I did not express well earlier. I titled this thread “Geeta’s interpretation” in order to ask Satay when he stated "Lord has clearly instructed all to annihilate the adharmic forces. He call this as Swadharma. I am not sure this is the message in Geeta. Is this the way all Hindus need to think and respond? May be I missed something here. I found the word annihilate, a very powerful.

    I am not disputing what misguided missionaries are doing. My question is how one responds based on Geeta’s teaching?

    Perhaps this issue is confusing as what Bible says and what missionaries teach about their own “turn or burn” concept are lumped together. I do think there is clear distinction.

    Love………….VC

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    Re: Geeta's Interpretation

    Namaste VcIndiana,

    Don't have doubts, VC. Hindus by nature are very tolerant & non-violent. See the history of the Hindus over thousand of years. Hindus are credited with having one of the earliest civilisations this world witnessed. However, they never wanted to convert anyone else to Hinduism. India is the only country where you can find people of all religions living together for thousands of years. Hindus always believed in winning the hearts & not the territories.

    What Satay wants to point out is the anguish arising out of treachery of the missionaries to that non-violent & tolerant race & all other similar races in the world. I need not tell you what these people did to innocent peace-loving people in the name of religion. The virtue of being peace-loving was seen as weakness. The poverty was not seen as an opportunity to show compassion but an opportunity to convert the poor people & win the territories in the long run.

    It is not that such things were happening only in the past, it is still going on. If these missionaries had their way, the whole of Hindu tribe would have converted to Christianity by now ... the priceless treasure of the knowledge of Vedas would have been destroyed by these zealots. However, God wanted otherwise & that is why today we are here discussing Hindu philosophy.

    Don't have doubts, VC. Hindus will never forget that God is in everyone & in everything. You will hardly find a Hindu who mocks Jesus Christ and you will hardly find a Christian who truly reveres the Hindu Gods ! The problem is not in the Bible ... it is in its interpretation but the truth remains that the problem is there.

    This thread was born due to Atanu's post, "laugh". You got anguished when it was pointed out that the Bible is interpreted in a wrong way .... whereas you forgot how much destruction was carried out in the name of the Bible ! If Bible would have been interpreted correctly, this world would not have seen so much of human bloodshed ... so much hatred & so much pains ... all in the name of religion.

    Regards,
    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Geeta's Interpretation

    Dear VC,

    Please go through the semi-official response of christianity to hinduism in the following web page and suggest what our response should be?

    http://www.contenderministries.org/h...anresponse.php

    Christians have similar response for all religions. http://contenderministries.org/islam/muhammad.php.

    Most of us have no any grouse against real christians who abide by Bible and the Prophets. But how to respond to zealots who see only "I-Me-Mine" as their religion?

    Similarly, i personally believe that those who follow the following dominant teaching of Koran are friends.




    Al-Quran 6:151
    "take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn Wisdom."

    And the Prophet says:
    'Powerful is not he who knocks the other down, indeed powerful is he who controls himself in a fit of anger. '
    But what about the bandits who kill, loot, rape in the name of Islam?


    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 02 May 2009 at 11:03 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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