Geeta's Interpretation

[atanu]

Dear Atanu:
My question to you is would you as a Sthithapagnya with full of wisdom criticize, condemn and legally and forcefully counter so called adhamic forces? If so please explain to me how you interpret BG CH 2 verse 57 which says SP when meeting with good and evil (or your way of thinking Dharma and Adharma) neither rejoices nor recoils ----
Love……………VC

Namaste VC,

You are correct yet you are defending your faith. Isn't it? What is the need? Why?

If you taught your son certain values and prohibited chocolate from him on account of a vaid reason, what will you do if a clever fellow comes and exploits the natural weakness of your son to motivate him to slap you?

Following Jesus, you can give him the other side to slap, but that probably under the circumstance will not help your son.

First, if one is true stithipragnya, one would not take physical action but a mere wish (which will always be for overall good) would automatically make the powers to criticize, condemn and legally and forcefully counter so called adhamic forces.

(I see that you have introduced a so-called from your side).

Second, in addition to what you have cited of Shri Krishna's teachings, He has also taught "Arjuna do your bounden duty". Being born in Hindu society, it is bounden duty of everyone to protect its faith and teachings.

Third, Shri Krishna teaches : God is present equally in every heart. Now if someone comes and teaches: "No, no. Only Christ gives salvation" or "Only Allah gives salvation". What will you do?

Om

[vcindiana]

If you taught your son certain values and prohibited chocolate from him on account of a vaid reason, what will you do if a clever fellow comes and exploits the natural weakness of your son to motivate him to slap you?

For me this is hypothetical. Was this your experience? If this is true I am sorry your son slapped you. I have a real story of my friend whose daughter became upset (short of slapping) and called police to arrest him. That is a different story; I can share with sometime if you wish. There is more in this life than chocolates.

Following Jesus, you can give him the other side to slap, but that probably under the circumstance will not help your son.

This thread is nothing to do with JC.

First, if one is true stithipragnya, one would not take physical action but a mere wish (which will always be for overall good) would automatically make the powers to criticize, condemn and legally and forcefully counter

adhamic forces.

Is this the new definition of Stithapragnya according to Atanu ? Is this how Geeta describe? Isn’t “mere wish” a mental or inner process? Does a physical action come automatically without an inner ‘mere wish” thinking?

Second, in addition to what you have cited of Shri Krishna's teachings, He has also taught "Arjuna do your bounden duty". Being born in Hindu society, it is bounden duty of everyone to protect its faith and teachings.

This is something I am not very clear. Perhaps you can explain me better. What I observe is that Krishna’s message is a very personal one and I find the word Swadharma, (not mere Dharma) very appropriate. I am not sure there is something as a collective Hindu dharma, Muslim dharma, Jain dharma etc.. My take on this verse Arjuna do your bounden duty is to be True to himself in his own Dharma that happened to be a soldier (born, trained, practiced and experienced) and not to think about becoming a sanyasi.

Third, Shri Krishna teaches : God is present equally in every heart. Now if someone comes and teaches: "No, no. Only Christ gives salvation" or "Only Allah gives salvation". What will you do?

For this Yajavan has responded very nicely to be indifferent, this I think is the character of a Stithapragnya. There are always people having different views and try to force their views. There is a fear that I will be converted or brainwashed. Geeta assures me to just stick to what I am and do my work with full attention, wisdom as you pointed out and more than any thing else Love (Vikarma).

Thank you Atanu for the oppertunity for me to keep searching for the truth in BG. It will be never ending, that is amazing.

Love...............VC

[atanu]

For me this is hypothetical. Was this your experience? If this is true I am sorry your son slapped you. I have a real story of my friend whose daughter became upset (short of slapping) and called police to arrest him. That is a different story; I can share with sometime if you wish. There is more in this life than chocolates.
This thread is nothing to do with JC.

Namaste VC,

How does it matter who are the actors? It is an example, which you are avoiding.

Is this the new definition of Stithapragnya according to Atanu ? Is this how Geeta describe? Isn’t “mere wish” a mental or inner process? Does a physical action come automatically without an inner ‘mere wish” thinking?

Stitha Pragnya with full mind is directly situated in Pragnya (Wisdom) which is God's revealed form, which is equally present in everyone and revealed to every one in one's deep sleep as ONE-Single and bliss. Because of which, we see and know and say "I understand" or "I do not".

It indeed is called Kalpa Taru -- the wish fiullfilling tree. But wishes are not individual's but Vishnu's.

Gita teaching "I am not a doer" and "For a yogi nothing remains to be done" are linked to this, but probably it may not immediately sink in you, since you still cannot come to throw away the disbelief.

This is something I am not very clear. Perhaps you can explain me better. What I observe is that Krishna’s message is a very personal one and I find the word Swadharma, (not mere Dharma) very appropriate.

Swadhrama of all is to be sat-chid-ananda, but it depends on one's situation. Is not protecting your family your swadharma? Is not protecting the environment your svadharma?

Protecting the precepts of one's Guru, the scripture and tradition is also svadharma -- till it does not over-ride another's svadharma.

For this Yajavan has responded very nicely to be indifferent, this I think is the character of a Stithapragnya.

I agree. But the word indifferent is wrong. A stitha Pragnya is alert with his full mind not to allow the false perceptions to arise.

Second, for Yajvan Ji, who practices what he preaches, it is correct and only good for all can result from his state.

But it does not apply to you, since you created this thread. You have a karma to fulfill. It does not apply to me, since, i decided, to counter. Neither will it apply to an evangeliser.

I regard you highly and I hope that we can continue without being sarcastic and without thinking of 'my point' etc. but solely for the purpose of love.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Thank you Atanu for the oppertunity for me to keep searching for the truth in BG. It will be never ending, that is amazing.

Love...............VC

Namaste VC,

That is just one example you provide. Shri Krishna Himself says the beginningless Param Brahman is knowable. But you say that the search will be unending.

How does one tackle such anomalies, especially when the opponent comes to impose his incomplete knowledge, armed either with goodies or with a knife? (to avoid any mis-undertanding, i remind that this is an example).

Om Namah Shivaya

[vcindiana]

Recently this was posted on the web about Lying and the Mahabharata
My answer is in the next post .
It’s funny how sometimes, we are put into situations where we are forced to reevaluate our morals, and it is often interesting to see how we work to uphold our sense of morality. As with many of our other morals, many of us were taught from a young age that lying is wrong. But, for many of us, as we grew older we were slowly introduced to the idea that to lie in certain situations
The story of the Mahabharata expresses this very idea multiple times. On the eve of the first day of battle, Kunti, the mother of the Pandavas and Karna revealed to Karna that the Pandavas were his brothers, but neglected to tell the Pandavas, especially Arjuna, that Karna was their eldest brother. This was obviously unfair, because Karna could not bring himself to kill Arjuna, his younger brother. Arjuna, on the other hand, saw Karna as his enemy, and killed him at the first opportunity. Another instance where lying was a major factor in the outcome of the war was when Yudishthira lied to Drona, saying that Ashwattama, Drona’s son, had been killed by Bhima. The truth was that Bhima had slayed an elephant named Ashwattama. In both of these instances, lying seemed to be the best way, and at times, the to solve the problem at hand.
Krishna made sure Kunti would not to tell the Pandavas the true identity of Karna, for he knew that the Pandavas wouldn’t want to kill their elder brother. At the same time, Krishna took advantage of Karna’s kind heart and made Kunti reveal to Karna his true identity as one of the Pandavas just before the war began.
Why did Krishna have to be so deceitful and unfair to the Kauravas? Why did he make Kunti and Yudishtira lie? After thinking about it for a while, I realized that all of those dishonest acts had to be performed to protect (righteousness) and to make sure dharma would overcome adharma on the Kurukshetra battlefield.
If we were to apply the same message to our own lives, do you think it would be okay for someone to disregard his or her own morals and lie so that the situation can be better for everyone overall? Is it really sometimes okay to lie?

[vcindiana]

My answer (as it applied to my own life )

This question is very interesting. Does "Righteousness” or Dharma as defined here has to be protected regardless one stays away from Truth?

My answer is Truth can never be hidden. It is Dharma. My understanding of Dharma (swadharma) is different. I consider Dharma is something that one needs to be true to him/herself. Dharma or Truth is same. Protecting Dharma is to relentlessly be True to oneself.

Mahabharata stories are no different from what we experience in this present time. There was relentless hatred and vengeance. People with evil thoughts and actions (if some one wants to call adharmic people) were there in those days and now there are here in these days. Also there are lot more people who are good on this earth. Mahabharata did not end like "they lived happily forever”. The Pandavas did win the battle. Duryodhana was killed, and the Kaurava armies were wiped out. It is hardly a happy ending. Yudhishthira becomes king, but the world is forever changed by the battle's violence. Krishna supposed to be God himself got killed by a hunter. His own people get wiped out. So what is the message here?

Is this all about Good (I guess wrongly understood as Dharma) annihilating the evil (wrongly understood as Adharma)? Good people like Bheeshma, Drona and Karna joined adharmic Duryodana knowing they are fighting against good guys. Supposedly good people Krishna and Padavas did lie and finally paid their penalties. Supposedly bad or adharmic Duryodana finally earned heaven! How could this be?

My conviction is "Dharma" is all about Truth. Realistically it is hard to be true to myself every minute. As a human being it is impossible to be truthful all the time. But there is no alternative; I need to keep in track at least most of the time. As long as I am established in the God consciousness (Self) I can keep come back into the track.

Love..............VC

[atanu]

My answer (as it applied to my own life )

This question is very interesting. Does "Righteousness” or Dharma as defined here has to be protected regardless one stays away from Truth?

Love..............VC

Namaste VC,

Who is staying away from truth and who is staying with it? What are the assumptions? What happened to earlier open questions? Have those been resolved?

Om Namah Shivaya?

[vcindiana]

Namaste VC,

Who is staying away from truth and who is staying with it? What are the assumptions? What happened to earlier open questions? Have those been resolved?

Om Namah Shivaya?

Dear Atanu: You asked me about open questions. For me questions are always open. I keep learning and growing in my own way. You write “Shri Krishna Himself says the beginningless Param Brahman is knowable. But you say that the search will be unending.”

For all knowing Krishna it is easy for him. As a human being I do not see black and white. Life is full of gray. If I ever come to know every thing black and white in this world, Ego gets into me and I loose the humility.

You wrote “when the opponent comes to impose his incomplete knowledge, armed .......” Atanu, when did you find me as an opponent armed with a knife? Sorry, it does not upset me; this statement is the reflection of your personal thoughts and fear.

In line with the purpose of this thread in the post 155, a person with Hindu belief asked a real question “Why did Krishna have to be so deceitful and unfair to the Kauravas? Why did he make Kunti and Yudishtira lie?” He was asking about truth vs. Dharma. His own answer was that it was OK to lie at times to preserve the Dharma.

This is something I did not find it right. I have explained this in the post 156. Dharma has to be truth; there cannot be Dharma without truth.

This is my own understanding and I am not imposing at a knife point (as you perceive it ) to any one on this forum to believe it. After all this is a Hindu forum, in that spirit there is freedom of expression as long as the expressions are not derogatory and putting another person down.

Love.... VC

[atanu]

Namaste VC,

I will try my best to dispel the shadow of doubts and ill feeling that may be clouding comminication.

Dear Atanu: You asked me about open questions. For me questions are always open. I keep learning and growing in my own way. You write “Shri Krishna Himself says the beginningless Param Brahman is knowable. But you say that the search will be unending.”

For all knowing Krishna it is easy for him. As a human being I do not see black and white. Life is full of gray. If I ever come to know every thing black and white in this world, Ego gets into me and I loose the humility.

IMHO, faith in Krishna's teachings must be the beginning.

You wrote “when the opponent comes to impose his incomplete knowledge, armed .......” Atanu, when did you find me as an opponent armed with a knife? Sorry, it does not upset me; this statement is the reflection of your personal thoughts and fear.

I wrote:

From Atanu
How does one tackle such anomalies, especially when the opponent comes to impose his incomplete knowledge, armed either with goodies or with a knife? (to avoid any mis-undertanding, i remind that this is an example).

Understanding that there may be problem, i took a precaution to clarify that it was an example linked to a general question. Actually, i find it little odd that you take it personally, though it was clarified upfront that the question pertained to a very general happening of christians seducing with goodies or a muslim scaring as noted earlier and as reproduced below.

From Atanu
Third, Shri Krishna teaches : God is present equally in every heart. Now if someone comes and teaches: "No, no. Only Christ gives salvation" or "Only Allah gives salvation". What will you do?

In line with the purpose of this thread in the post 155, a person with Hindu belief asked a real question “Why did Krishna have to be so deceitful and unfair to the Kauravas? Why did he make Kunti and Yudishtira lie?” He was asking about truth vs. Dharma. His own answer was that it was OK to lie at times to preserve the Dharma.

This is something I did not find it right. I have explained this in the post 156. Dharma has to be truth; there cannot be Dharma without truth.

Your doubts will be dispelled once you believe that Krishna is as much in Duryodhana as in Arjuna.

This is my own understanding and I am not imposing at a knife point (as you perceive it ) to any one on this forum to believe it. After all this is a Hindu forum, in that spirit there is freedom of expression as long as the expressions are not derogatory and putting another person down.
Love.... VC

I repeat that i have not perceived anything like what you assume.

Om Namah Shivaya

[vcindiana]

MYSTERY ILLUSION DELUTION
To day I heard son of a friend of mine was diagnosed to have melanoma in his armpit. This is usually a deadly skin cancer. What are so unusual about this cancer are this 30+ man never got exposed to lots of sun exposure ( unless he kept waving his hand ) and its presentation without a primary focus. According to his doctor there are very few known such cases in the world. A team of medical experts are working on him. But the hard truth is probably there is no cure. Naturally the family is worried and concerned. How could this be possible in otherwise very healthy family man? It is indeed a mystery. No amount of medical knowledge can solve the mystery.
Contradict to our thinking we know very little about this mysterious world. Whether it is medical field, pure science or spiritual things, we know very little and these have been kept beyond our human understanding. With all the research going on we still do not know many things about Cancer. Why Swine flu attacks some one but spares somebody else, we do not know. Most of us know Isaac Newton s law that the two bodies attract each other with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. But we do not know why two bodies attract each other. Why should there be force at all? What is this force? We do not know the answers. Newton’s law describes the phenomenon but why this should exist in the first place or how it operates we just do not know. We do not know how and why the atoms got together and formed DNA in a helical shape. In mathematics the number of potential geometries is infinite. Albert Einstein (synonym for genius) said that we can observe and theorize but we can never know.
Knowing so little we go around that we know the score when we actually do not know beans. But we do that because it is a “scary’ thought that we do not know what we are doing or where we are going. Also we do not want to act like or look stupid. We seek a comfort zone that is we live in the world of Illusion. In illusion we think we know much more than we actually do. It is not a comfortable feeling to wake up to the reality of our ignorance.
Now, let me turn to mystery. Without tasting the mystery (unknown) we cannot know the reality of our ignorance. Whether it scientific journey or a spiritual journey we seek for the truth as much as possible but there is no escape from mystery, we always some where or other stumble into the unknown and mysterious. It would be a humbling experience when faced with such situations.
In spiritual journey one is encouraged to have faith. There is nothing wrong. Complete faith in order to escape mystery does work for some; clear cut dogmatic beliefs will straighten out some. But it also has negative aspect that the religious people in complete faith think they have God in their pockets, but reality or God is not ours to posses, God or the reality cannot be tied up in a neat intellectual little package.
To embrace mystery in spirituality is like a scientist prepared for a bad outcome in his well executed experiment. This is indeed reality. There is no illusion here. There is faith and also there is doubt. But it is healthy.
People unable to tolerate mystery usually come with the explanation of for things that are unexplainable. Some of my family members love to say “Oh it is scientific! When explaining some rituals or some medicinal herbs with their own idea as though science is pure cut and dry. They try to find comfort in removing themselves from the mystery. I consider this is delusional which is almost synonymous with the word illusion.
I think one can be spiritually healthy as long as one has the appreciation for the great mystery around us and has a profound curiosity of any thing in life, watching an eclipse, being part of growing technologies, bird watching, climbing a mountain or even studying sex life of porcupines etc etc etc .
I am no exception; I fall in between total mental/spiritual health and utter insanity.
Personally I consider Geeta is full of mysteries. For most of us these are not simple fairy tales. Just look at the sheer numbers of books and literature written on BG by various authors. No one can claim to fully know BG. These will remain as mystery purposely. Not having mystery will be an illusion which very soon leads into delusion. ( I am no expert on Geeta. )
Love...................VC