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Thread: That state before Samadhi

  1. #1

    That state before Samadhi

    Pranam,
    According to Pantanjali Yoga Sutra the state before samadhi one is beyond space and time. Where is the soul in this state? What would happen if the body died while one is in this state?

    Namaste,
    Hiwaunis

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    Re: That state before Samadhi

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté Hiwaunis


    I would assume you are referring to asamprajñāta samādhi? Samādhi comes in a few flavors, so says Patañjali’s yogadarśana, 1st chapter ( called samādhi pāda); Look to the 17th and 18th sūtra-s.
    • nirodha निरोध control , suppression , destruction. Yet of what? The fluxuations of the mind. Some call this the 'arrested state'.
    • samprajñāta सम्प्रज्ञात distinguished , discerned , known accurately; mind is 'partially arrested'.
    • a-samprajñāta or without knowledge, or known accurately - this is the 'fully arrested' state. Some call this objectless i.e. nirvīja made up of nir = nis 'without' + vīja = bīja 'seed' - hence without seed, or objectless.
    Hence before a-samprajñāta , one may experience samprajñāta samādhi, yet this does not meet your question of 'void before samādhi' occuring.

    To be too technical on this matter leaving a-samprajñāta, latent impressions may still persist in the mind ( called saṁskāra śeṣa ).
    Since thoughts may re-appear, the 'mind' re-engages and one is back to thoughts ( this has been my experience - returning to the fluxuating mind i.e. ignorance).

    That said, the interval between two fluctuating states, can be considered void.

    This becomes very technical - and I do not wish to bring confusion to one's mind ( mine too!). If you wish to go deeper and wider into this ( Less the dying part you alluded to), I would find the following book , which has been an indispensable part of my library for some time now:
    The Yoga Philosophy of Patañjali by Saṁkhya Yogāchārya Svāmi Hariharānanda Āraṇa (Founder of the Kāpila Monastery); rendered into English by P.N.Mukerji. My copy is from 1977. Printed in India

    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 30 April 2009 at 08:13 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #3

    Re: That state before Samadhi

    Pranam Yagvan,
    Thanks for coming to my rescue.

    This becomes very technical - and I do not wish to bring confusion to one's mind ( mine too!). If you wish to go deeper and wider into this ( Less the dying part you alluded to),

    Actually, it is the dying part that I am interested in. It seems almost impossible to reach even the first level of samadhi. Soooo, well I guess I am confusing the soul as the knower with a state of consciousness.

    However, I see the soul and body just as one would view a computer. The computer (body) being plugged into an energy source (soul). So if one is in a state of consciousness where one is not aware of having a body or of time and space, one is only aware that it exist; is it like being unplugged from the energy source?

    I guess I am trying to figure out what is the point of reaching the state of samadhi (happiness, joy, bliss, etc) and then having to return to this world ( sorrow, pain, trouble, etc) when one can just check-out while in the state of nothingness? The soul is not affected either way, right?

    Namaste,
    Hiwaunis

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    Re: That state before Samadhi

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namast Hiwaunis

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiwaunis View Post
    I guess I am trying to figure out what is the point of reaching the state of samadhi (happiness, joy, bliss, etc) and then having to return to this world ( sorrow, pain, trouble, etc) when one can just check-out while in the state of nothingness? The soul is not affected either way, right?
    Namaste, Hiwaunis
    Ahhh! I see your point. I cannot speak from my studies that ātman is not affected. My teacher said many times we continue to go back and forth from these samādhi levels as if one were bleaching a colored sheet in the sun. What has to be completely burnt ( like a roasted seed the wise say), are the kleśa-s. How is this accomplished?

    We bathe in the purity of turiya, then come back to diversity. Each time, the sheet becomes more pure (white), sattvic. So we do this again and again till the white of the sheet is there all the time. Then turiya is with the person all the time. One then is in balance - no amount of diversity can shake ones being.


    When one is established in this 4th ( turiya) then sorrows are not viewed as such but as the play of the 3 guna-s. The world changes.


    praṇām

    words
    kelśa क्लेश - considered 5 in number : avidyā 'ignorance', asmitā 'egotism' , rāga 'desire' , dveṣa 'aversion' , and abhiniveśa 'tenacity of mundane existence'. There are is another 5 list, but this will do.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: That state before Samadhi

    Here is a brief from the book The study of Patanjali (1920) by S.N.Dasgupta, downloadable at http://www.archive.org/details/study...jali00dasgiala (17.6 MB).

    • In the first stages the mind attains the discriminative knowledge but the PrajnA is not deeply seated; occasionally the phenomenal states of consciousness are seen to intervene in the form of "I am", "Mine", "I know", "I do not know".

    Since the old potencies that progressively become weaker are not completely destroyed, these manifestations arise as states which are seen to intervene the flow of discriminative knowledge.

    • In the higher state of mind in which the mind is in its natural, passive, and objectless stream of flowing PrajnA, it is called Dharmamegha SamAdhi. When one does not want to get anything from DhyAna even, there rises the true knowledge which distinguishes the Prakriti from the PuruSha and is called the Dharmamegha SamAdhi (IV.29).

    The potency of this state of consciousness lasts until PuruSha is finally liberated from the bonds of Prakriti and is absolutely free ('kevalau'). In this state, the Chitta becomes infinite and since all its Tamas is finally overcome, it shines forth like the sun, which can reflect all and thus an infinitude is acquired, which has absorbed within itself all finitude, which therefore cannot have any separate existence or manifestation from this infinite knowledge. The PuruSha in this stage is said to be JIvanmukta (IV.31).

    For a Kevali PuruSha, the GuNas return back to their PradhAna (primal causes): The GuNas as cause and effect involving ordinary experiences, SamAdhi and Nirodha become submerged in the Manas; the Manas becomes submerged iu the AsmitA, the AsmitA in the Linga and the Linga in the Alinga.

    This state of Kaivalya is distinguished from the state of Mahapralaya thus: in Mahapralaya, the GuNas return to the Prakriti only to be reconnected in the later stages of creation to the PuruSha, so the liberation of PuruSha is only temporary. In Kaivalya, the liberation of PuruSha from Prakriti is final and eternal, so the state is never again disturbed by any connection with Prakriti.

    • The SamprajnAta state has four stages. True knowledge begins to dawn in the first stage and culiminates in the final stage. Even when reaching the fourth stage, the Yogi might still have past Vyutthana (phenomenal activity now existing as the sub-conscious), threatening the true knowledge becoming absolute certainty and permanency.

    So the last stage of AsamprajnAta Samadhi represents the stage in which the ordinary consciousness has been altogether surpassed and the mind is in its own true infinite aspect and the potencies of the stages in which the mind was full of finite knowledge are also burnt, so that with the return of the Chitta to its primal cause, the final emancipation is effected.

    No mind which is not in the EkAgra or one pointed-state can be fit for the AsamprajnAta Samadhi in which it has to settle itself on one object and that alone. So also no mind which has not risen up to the state of highest Nirodha or suppression is fit for the AsamprajnAta or the Nirvija state.

    While Vachaspati, Ramananda Sarasvati, and Narayana Tirtha say that the one truth EkAgra to which the mind should be settled and fixed is Ishvara but Vijnana BhikShu is of the opinion that by one truth any object gross or fine is intended.

    **********

    Space, AkAsha, is infinite. Time is finite. When the infinitude of true knowledge is gained in the state of AsamprajnAta Samadhi and made permanent by the Yogi, perhaps the Yogi who is beyond death and physical living, would still be located in a timeless space (timeless by our scales of time) (of Tapaloka)? Even the TrimUrtis are spoken of as being located in the Sathyaloka?

    Perhaps the Yogi now has the Suddha Manas where there is no reflection of the GuNas of Prakriti. He might still continue to act in his continuing live(s) caused by his remaining karma, but would always be immersed in that highest state of liberation of PuruSha.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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    Re: That state before Samadhi

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namast

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    In the higher state of mind in which the mind is in its natural, passive, and objectless stream of flowing PrajnA, it is called Dharmamegha SamAdhi. When one does not want to get anything from DhyAna even, there rises the true knowledge which distinguishes the Prakriti from the PuruSha and is called the Dharmamegha SamAdhi (IV.29).
    One must ask , why is this dharma-megha samādhi found in the 4th chapter and not back in chapter 1, Samādhi Pāda? Because chapter 4 is Kavela Pāda:
    • kevala केवल- brings one to the conclusion, entirely , wholly , absolutely; Kevala is alone , only , sole , one , excluding others i.e. liberation.
    That is , the establishment of the SELF as one's daily experience. Kevala is considered liberation and the absolute unity to the Divine.
    Why then call this dharma-megha samādhi ?
    • dharma धर्म- that which is established or firm steadfast ; virtue
    • megha मेघ- 'sprinkler' , a cloud
    Dharmamegha is cloud pouring virtue that one attains. The 29th sūtra of Patajalis yogadarśana points this out as saideveo has offered in post 5 above. I also call your attention to the fruit that the 29th sūtra points to; that is found in the 32nd sūtra.

    It says , After the rise of that ( dharma-megha ) the gua-s having fullfilled their purpose, the sequence of their mutation ceases.

    The guṇa-s do not operate here. This fullfills not only the instruction Patajali-ji offers, but all the instructions (the vidhi -formula or injunction) given by Kṛṣṇa in chapter 2, 45th śloka of the Bhāgavad gītā - be without the 3 gua-s. What then insues from this?

    For Patajali-ji it is termed kevala. For Kṛṣṇa it is yogasta kuru karmāi ( chapter 2 , 48 śloka) becoming established in yoga, union with the Supreme.

    Kṛṣṇa says in the same śloka , ever firm in purity, independent of of possessions and possessed of the SELF. His key word is niryogakṣema. It suggests that in this state of Being one free from duality , of being tied to this level of functioning and the sway of the guṇa-s. One is now free, independent (kevala) of the guṇa-s.

    It is the relative field of life ( duality, homes, cars, actions, big, small, etc) that the guṇa-s operate. So with dharma-megha samādhi occuring , one becomes established in yoga (yogasta kuru karmāi) and lives a life beyond the tri-guṇa-s

    praṇām

    words
    • niryogakṣema - niryoga निर्योग a rope for tieing cows + kṣema क्षेम- giving rest, peace - The notion is being tied (niryoga) to possessions and giving rest, peace to this ( kṣema ) .
    • nir = nis = without or free from + yoga is attaching or binding + kṣema ( giving rest)
    • 32nd sutra
      • tataḥ kṛta-arthanaṁ pariṇāma-krama-samāptir guṇānāṁ
        • tataḥ or tad तद्- thus , in this manner , with regard to that
        • kṛta कृत- done , made , accomplished , performed ; obtained, gained
        • arthānām or artha अर्थ- motive, purpose, reason (fyi arthanā - is request, entreaty)
        • pariṇāma परिणाम - change , alteration , transformation into ( as a noun, a holy man)
          • (also as I see it, not 'official') - pari in the direction of , towards ; parinā - taken, deception ;parāṇ - turned away, having the mind or thoughts directed backwards.
        • krama क्रम - proceeding; uninterrupted or regular progress , order , series , regular arrangement , succession
        • samāpti समाप्ति- complete acquisition ; accomplishment , completion , perfection , conclusion also reconciling differences
        • guṇānāṁ or guṇa गुण - in sāṃkhya philospphy the constituents of prakṛti i.e. sattva , rajas , and tamas
    Last edited by yajvan; 01 May 2009 at 02:52 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: That state before Samadhi

    I say, no amount of adversity can shake ones being.

    I am not certain however it is the state before Samadhi. My teacher said, with Samadhi the body may drop or not.

    It seems to me, if free of the sway of the gunas, then, you have moksha?

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    Re: That state before Samadhi

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiwaunis View Post
    Pranam,
    According to Pantanjali Yoga Sutra the state before samadhi one is beyond space and time. Where is the soul in this state? What would happen if the body died while one is in this state?

    Namaste,
    Hiwaunis
    Namaste Hiwaunis,

    The state before samadhi is almost like just before dozing off but instead of going into unconsciousness, it feels like falling into a supportless place.

    Soul is surely in its own space in samadhi. Soul has the nature of Existence, Knowledge and Bliss. In nirvikalpa samadhi, it is that. But in intermediate space it can be in any Loka. During nirvikalpa Samadhi one cannot have any experience but while entering it and after leaving it one intersects and remembers the inexpressible bliss, which is said to raise one's hair.

    See, the body never had a life that it will die. There are many stories which tell us that sages leave the physical frame/clothing to dry up like a piece of wood and never return to it.

    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 04 May 2009 at 09:22 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: That state before Samadhi

    I would think, this is surely be different from what people call astro-travel.

    I have seen at least one reference to leaving the body (vis a vis astro-travel) and not returning.

    Is there clarification, on this point, about sages?

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    Re: That state before Samadhi

    "Astro-travel" is the willful transition of one's consciousness to a particular place in space-time causality. This, akin to a siddhi, can be accomplished by an "un-enlightened" person who has had some rigorous training in Yoga. The state before Samadhi however, is totally different, if I am not mistaken, from this 'astro-travel' phenomenon. I believe the former is from one's desire whereas the latter is a consequence of one's persistent sadhana.

    As far as the sages are concerned, I am not so sure. I am sure someone else will chime in regarding that.

    The only case of 'astro-travel' I've heard of was Adi Sankara who uses this technique to gain the experience of life as a King, who happens to be on his deathbed only to be 'revived' by Adi Sankara's consciousness, albeit for a short period of time.

    My question would be this: when one is approaching Samadhi (or losing one's ignorance I should say), is one still conscious of oneself? It would seem almost oxymoronic if that was the case because the whole underlying theme of the Vedas is that you don't exist, only the Atman does!

    Namaskar.

    Quote Originally Posted by ConnieD View Post
    I would think, this is surely be different from what people call astro-travel.

    I have seen at least one reference to leaving the body (vis a vis astro-travel) and not returning.

    Is there clarification, on this point, about sages?

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