Kashmir Shaivism and Buddhism

[sunyatisunya]

In writings on Kashmir Shaivism I often come across references to ancient struggles between the Shaiva scholars and the Buddhist scholars who also lived in Kashmir. Swami Lakshmanjoo mentions somewhere that Shree Vasugupta-Natha invoked Shiva to aid him in defeating the Buddhist thinkers who believed "in the negation of the Supreme Self". I'd like to think that this was more than inter-religious squabbles and had more depth to it - that Vasugupta was seeking his own clarification, to attain to the perfected knowledge of realization, so that he could then guide aright those who desired to be so guided, and he could also help the Buddhist scholars.

I'm not well-versed in the intricacies of Buddhist philosophy and its many schools. I do know the basic story of Gautama Buddha quite well and find it quite inspirational - displaying the attitude every sincere spiritual seeker should take towards the effort of his own realization. I'm curious - with the revelation of the Siva Sutras to Vasugupta, which points directly addressed doctrines of the Buddhists that were around in Kashmir in the 8th century?

Is there much history known about all of this? Swami Lakshmanjoo says that "based on the teachings of these [Siva Sutras], [he] defeated the Buddhist thinkers in religious discussions."

Could anyone point out the finer details of the Buddhist doctrine about "negation of the Supreme Self" in its relation to the teachings of Kashmir Shaivism?

[yogin]

I don't know the details of logical inference for these, but in Buddha's doctrine are defined three essential marks of existence, which are Anitya, Anatman and Duhkha.

These mean that conditioned existence is essentially non-permanent, without substantial or intrinsic Self and without lasting happiness. This kinda overrules the vedantic notion of sat-cit-ananda or eternal Brahman.

[yogin]

Of course the best way to come to this understanding is not by inference but by meditation.

[MahaHrada]

I don't know the details of logical inference for these, but in Buddha's doctrine are defined three essential marks of existence, which are Anitya, Anatman and Duhkha.

These mean that conditioned existence is essentially non-permanent, without substantial or intrinsic Self and without lasting happiness. This kinda overrules the vedantic notion of sat-cit-ananda or eternal Brahman.

This is correct, except that so called kashmir shaivaites are not vedantins, and they belive in the immanence and transcendence of Shiva as the supreme conciousness, present in both the eternal as well as the finite and timebound. Though they even identify one aspect of shiva with shunya nonetheless their doctrine is incompatible with the buddhist teachings.

[shian]

Hi friends...^_^...

Namaste.

do you even hear from Mahayna or Vajrayana Buddhism about :

常乐我净 (Nitya-Sukha-Atma-Subha)


this word from Abhidharmakosa sastra


you must know the Teaching of Buddha is cure for peoples who have different stage of spirituality.


Buddha teach about Catur Aryasatya : Dukha, Samjna, Nirodha, Marga


is let people not attachment by materials


Buddha is teach dont attached by sunya
dont attached by rupa
dont attched by rupa and sunya.


and 常乐我净 (Nitya-Sukha-Atma-Subha) in chinesse prounonciation is

"Chang Le Wo Jing"


this Nitya, sukha, atma and subha is called four reverse , is make materialism people become reverse.

why ?

Nitya = is make material people think that the consciousness is eternal (in the meaning of cannot be develop become pure , or if someone have bad temper is will be cannot be changed, this is because in Buddha life time many people is think false about atma) and people is cannot deeply understand that anything materials is will be changed (not eternal). And they become attchaed by this not eternal things, the feel happy (sukha), and they think this material body is clean.

But、this Nitya, sukha, atma and subha is also mean aspect of Nirvana
Nitya is eternal not changed and without birth and died... without emerge and without gone...

Sukha is Nirvana's eternally peace

Atma is Nirvana's self mastery , the great adamantine self

Subha is pure wthout any polution.


Why Buddha use this ways ?
because in one ways many peoples is very easy to missunderstanding

i believe you must even see people that wasting life time to do practice who nothing benefit for his self and others
this is beause mind is still sick

like a man who read about "neti...neti... and consentration in nirguna Brahman" he reject saguna Brahman and he dont want do anythings in life... he become like a zombie... he cannot control the mind...
this is some case in spiritual path

so Buddha even said and many times tell about what the purpose and benefit from teaching, because so many peoples is become attached by many things in religion or sect who not the purpose of cultivation, who acctually cant liberate the mmind, who acctually make mind cannot peace.

[MahaHrada]

Hi friends...^_^...

Namaste.

do you even hear from Mahayna or Vajrayana Buddhism about :

常乐我净 (Nitya-Sukha-Atma-Subha)


this word from Abhidharmakosa sastra


you must know the Teaching of Buddha is cure for peoples who have different stage of spirituality.


Buddha teach about Catur Aryasatya : Dukha, Samjna, Nirodha, Marga


is let people not attachment by materials


Buddha is teach dont attached by sunya
dont attached by rupa
dont attched by rupa and sunya.


and 常乐我净 (Nitya-Sukha-Atma-Subha) in chinesse prounonciation is

"Chang Le Wo Jing"


this Nitya, sukha, atma and subha is called four reverse in view of worldy people.

Is make someone

佛教术语。其义有二：1、四颠倒：佛教认为，世间是生死法，一切有为法（有生、住、变异和消失的事物），都是由众多因缘条件而生灭变化的，它的本性 皆是无常、苦、无我和不净，但“凡夫”不明此理，相反地认为是常、乐、我、净，颠倒妄执，因称之为四颠倒。《俱舍论》卷十九称：“应知颠倒总有四种，一于 无常执常颠倒，二于诸苦执乐颠倒，三于不净执净颠倒，四于远销执我颠倒。”2、涅槃四德：大乘佛教认为，一旦证入涅槃，就会具有真正的常乐我净。因涅槃的 体性有四种功德。恒常不变而无生灭，名之为常德；寂灭永安，名之为乐德；得大自在，是主是依，性不变易，名之为我德；解脱一切垢染，名之为净德。（任杰）

Yes of course because shunya can also become a concept of the mind.(if it is not experienced) Dharmakaya is without mind or concepts, therefore Buddha compares his teaching to a raft that can be left on the shore when the other side of the river is reached.
But the Shaiva agamas do not have this or a similar doctrine of Tathagatagarbha. That does not mean that it is impossibble for Shiva to appear as Buddha because he has the svatantrya shakti, complete fullness to appear in every form as he wishes.

What i mean is if the Buddha mentions the self, It is the self of the Buddha, he talks not about something that is self existing permanently, but about the Tathagathagarbha which is permanent because ist is void of existence. Shaiva teachings are conceptualised, but the Budhha taught non conceptualising (based on the idea that in Reality there exists nothing to be grasped or nowhere to go) This is absent from Hinduism. If like you say Buddha was only against the wrong understanding , according to his ideas all Hindus must have a wrong understanding because an idea such as the Dharmakaya is not existing and has not existed in the past within any Hindu tradition.

"In the Vedantic context, the Relative Truth (Skt. samvritti satya) is that this Samsara is an illusion and the Ultimate Truth (Skt. paramartha satya) is that there is an ultimately existing thing (Skt. paramartha satta) transcending / immanent in this world. The relative truth will vanish like a mist and the transcendent and immanent Brahma will appear as the only Truth, the world being false. To sum it up, the Vedantic Ultimate Truth is the existence of an ultimate existence or ultimate reality. Reality here is used as something which exists (Skt. satta).

However, the Buddhist Ultimate Truth is the absence of any such satta i.e. ultimately existing thing or ultimate reality. That is the significance of Shunyata - absence of any real, independent, unchanging existence (Skt. svabhava). And that fact is the Ultimate Truth of Buddhism, which is diametrically opposite to the Ultimate Truth of the Hindu Brahma. So Shunyata can never be a negative way of describing the Atman - Brahma of Hinduism"

Acharya Dharma Vajra

[atanu]

Hi friends...^_^...
Buddha is teach dont attached by sunya
dont attached by rupa
dont attched by rupa and sunya.

and 常乐我净 (Nitya-Sukha-Atma-Subha) in chinesse prounonciation is

"Chang Le Wo Jing"

this Nitya, sukha, atma and subha is called four reverse , is make materialism people become reverse.

why ?

Nitya = is make material people think that the consciousness is eternal (in the meaning of cannot be develop become pure , or if someone have bad temper is will be cannot be changed, this is because in Buddha life time many people is think false about atma) and people is cannot deeply understand that anything materials is will be changed (not eternal). And they become attchaed by this not eternal things, the feel happy (sukha), and they think this material body is clean.

But、this Nitya, sukha, atma and subha is also mean aspect of Nirvana
Nitya is eternal not changed and without birth and died... without emerge and without gone...

Sukha is Nirvana's eternally peace

Atma is Nirvana's self mastery , the great adamantine self

Subha is pure wthout any polution.

Why Buddha use this ways ?
because in one ways many peoples is very easy to missunderstanding

Namaste Shian,

I think you are absolutely correct. The Paramarthika truth is One only and any master of any worth must know the truth as truth only. To say that Buddha taught something different from Veda or vice versa, simply means that at least one of these two is wrong, and which is very likely not plausible. But we have different levels of understanding of Tat, attempts to describe which is bound to give varying expressions.

Nitya, sukha, atma and subha, to me is another way of saying anadimat (without beginning), ananda, atma (Self-me), shivam (good, pure, taintless, beneficient, auspicious) respectively.

Om Namah Shivaya

[srivijaya]

There are many debates around this topic but in the end I feel it comes down to the inability of language to completely capture that which lies beyond conceptualization.

For Buddhists, Hindus are positing the existence of something which cannot be found upon investigation. Reifying when they should not.

For Hindus, Buddhists are ignoring the obvious fact of the all-pervading awareness and negating way too much.

It's a lovely debate because we can run around trying to capture the truth with our inadequate words. I don't know but perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between?

Namaste

[shian]

Vanakkam,

wow, i just open it again, and i already forget it for long time

Yes there are many debate between Hindu and Buddha
or Buddhist with Buddhist (different sect)
or Hindu with Hindu (different sect)
or with other religion.

But i was amazed with one fact.

Is someone must know this kind of complex theory to gain salvation ?

Because,
old woman who even dont know to read any scripture, and only with pure heart chant Aum Namah Shivaya , she reach Shivaloka. (with many miracle and wonderful phenomena when she die)

old woman who even dont know to read any scripture, and only with pure heart chant Aum Namo Narayanaya, she reach Vaikuntha. (with many miracle and wonderful phenomena when she die)

old woman who even dont know to read any scripture, and only with pure heart chant Aum Laksmyai Namah , she reach kingdom of Shakti. (with many miracle and wonderful phenomena when she die)

old woman who even dont know to read any scripture, and only with pure heart chant Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare , she reach Goloka. (with many miracle and wonderful phenomena when she die)

old woman who even dont know to read any scripture, and only with pure heart chant Namo Amitabha Buddhaya , she reach Sukhavatiloka. (with many miracle and wonderful phenomena when she die)

etc...

But a scholar of world religion, or someone who know many theory of religions is die like another ordinary people

If such complex theory is important to gain salvation, peoples who have religion must :
can read
can hear
expert in sacred text