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Thread: Hell=Abuse;Karma=Teaching

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    Hell=Abuse;Karma=Teaching

    I have always been uncomfortable with the concept of a hell, a place where God tortures people, a place of physical abuse. It is disturbing to think God has something in common with someone like Saddam Hussain, or a Stalin. Using torture to correct your ways, really, does that sound like God? Recently in a Taliban area, a young woman was held down and brutally whipped! Should we think that God follows the same abusive policy?

    I believe that Abrahamic religions, which are king religions, came up with a concept of hell. A king punishes his subjects and so their god punishes. These religions are not very nice religions, full of abuse and hate, god using threats to keep you a member. Remember you cannot enter this god's segregated heaven unless you are a member. You could be a Gandhi but you can't get in. Imagine that!

    But Hinduism is not like that, the much older Hinduism came up with a very much different idea, an idea without using phycial abuse, karma and rebirth. Let's remember that a Hindu's goal is Moksha, not a flesh-happy heaven. Moksha is for those who are truly enlightened. God is our teacher in this journey towards Moksha. God doesn't have to use physical punishment to guide you to the right path. She uses Karma and Rebirth, you are born again and again, learning the lessons of God. If you do bad things in a previous life, God is not going to punish you, but simply will try to impart her teachings in another way.

    Take for example a teacher in class. There was this one teacher who lost his temper one day and beat us all. Did that make us better students? Did we learn what he was trying to teach us? Not at all! The wise teacher is one who is patient and tries again and again to reach his students. But in the end the teacher is also telling us that the students have a responsibility too. We also have to make an effort. If a student continuously refuses to listen to his teacher and keeps failing, what happens? He falls behind his peers and ultimately with little education, is stuck in a low-paying job, and it is then he realizes his mistakes.

    The same thing happens to us Hindus. If we fail to reflect on our actions and correct them, we may repeat them in another life. We need to listen to God's teachings, lead our life in a correct way and only then we move forward in our quest for Moksha.

    What a great concept! We Hindus should be thankful that we are being given this great gift!

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    Re: Hell=Abuse;Karma=Teaching

    Namaste RamaRaksha.

    You have explained karma and rebirth nicely; still our Hindu scriptures (especially GaruDa PurANam) do talk of a hell, but then this hell is largely the departed soul's own making because of the personification of its pent up thoughts and emotions.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamaRaksha
    The same thing happens to us Hindus. If we fail to reflect on our actions and correct them, we may repeat them in another life. We need to listen to God's teachings, lead our life in a correct way and only then we move forward in our quest for Moksha.
    The Hindu concepts of karma and rebirth are NOT just for Hindus. Embodied human souls do accrete karma and take rebirths, whatever their religion. While the concept of karma is available in a diluted form in the Abrahamic religions, the concept of rebirth was deliberately done away with so the Clergy can have control over their populace.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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    Re: Hell=Abuse;Karma=Teaching

    To me the concepts are contradictory - how you one be punished in hell and then suffer the consequences of karma in the next life? That's being punished for the same offense twice, isn't it?

    I made a mistake in the title, it should have been - Hell = Violence;Karma = Non-Violence. I would like Hindus to choose Non-Violence. Let's do away with this concept of Hell.

    I mean no offense to the scriptures but anyone can write anything, and just because it is thousands of years old, one should not accept it as the lateral truth. Besides, times change, and religions should change with the times.

    I do think it is time we seperate ourselves from the Abrahamic religious teachings, especially at this time, they are spending untold millions trying to convert Hindus to their fold. The percentage of Atheists is steadily increasing here in America as well as Europe and these people are simply looking for new sources of income.

    To me, Abrahamic religions are King Religions, God made in the image of a King. The king rewards loyalty - without the concept of karma and rebirth, the kings holds all the power. People are told that the king is merciful, all you have to do is to repent and bingo the merciful king will let you into heaven! How nice!

    Karma and Rebirth on the other hand, do not let you go scot-free, if you have done something wrong in the previous life, set it straight. Repent but it is in your hands to make things straight. There is no king god to wash away your sins. Karma & Rebirth force you to take responsibility for your actions. It is the right way and we should encourage the teaching of Karma and Rebirth and discard the teaching of hell.

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    Re: Hell=Abuse;Karma=Teaching

    Namaste Rama,

    Quote Originally Posted by RamaRaksha View Post
    To me the concepts are contradictory - how you one be punished in hell and then suffer the consequences of karma in the next life? That's being punished for the same offense twice, isn't it?
    Your post is good but i will like to offer another perspective. The hell itself is the result of karma -- there is no discontinuity. From our bodily perspective, we say this life, then hell or swarga, and then another life. But there is no such discontinuity for the soul.

    Shri Krishna indeed says that He throws the hard of heart to hell again and again. And Shri Krishna is the Self -- one's very own Atman.

    I mean no offense to the scriptures but anyone can write anything, and just because it is thousands of years old, one should not accept it as the lateral truth. Besides, times change, and religions should change with the times.
    Again there is no discontinuity and there is no change in the sanatana scripture and the sanatana truth. The idea of hell is a sub-set of full knowledge, denoting experience of pain. This world itself is pain and this world itself is madhu (honey). Here itself yogis attain moksha and Brahman.

    To me, Abrahamic religions are King Religions, God made in the image of a King. The king rewards loyalty - without the concept of karma and rebirth, the kings holds all the power. People are told that the king is merciful, all you have to do is to repent and bingo the merciful king will let you into heaven! How nice!

    Karma and Rebirth on the other hand, do not let you go scot-free, if you have done something wrong in the previous life, set it straight. Repent but it is in your hands to make things straight. There is no king god to wash away your sins. Karma & Rebirth force you to take responsibility for your actions. It is the right way and we should encourage the teaching of Karma and Rebirth and discard the teaching of hell.

    Although you are largely correct, IMO, you are making a small mistake as the followers of Abrahamic religions also do. Repenting is submitting and that is good. What is bad is the ignorance of Self.

    Till it is not understood that God is our own Viveka, guiding us, the God as punisher or God as dispenser of heavenly rewards will reign. God is the Seer and the power of mind and the senses. God, as our inner being is also all that you see and know. In fact, it is God's jnana shakti that only knows everything that is known and it is God's kriya shakti that wins all wars.

    Without knowing this Self as the God, who is all pervasive -- within and without, the various lokas of pain and pleasure, ignorance, and karma will stick and in such cases, it is the self that slays and punishes the self. God has no role, except as a benevolent patient teacher -- as sadashiva, the teacher who takes brahmA to moksha.

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Hell=Abuse;Karma=Teaching

    "The hell itself is the result of karma -- there is no discontinuity. From our bodily perspective, we say this life, then hell or swarga, and then another life. But there is no such discontinuity for the soul."

    Thank you Atanu, Nice post. I do think that most people will disagree with you, if I read your post right, then there is no karma? After all if I have done something bad in the previous life and am punished in hell, doesn't that mean I won't suffer the consequences of karma in the next life? And also can you tell me exactly what happens in hell and heaven by the way? Bodily pain and bodily pleasures? Are our values this common and so low? So God ties us up and uses her whip on us in hell? And that is how we learn our lesson? Let me say using physical pain, I can make you say or do anything I want. Do you really think this is the right way? Do you realize that this is what happens in today's jails? People who have been caught doing petty crimes enter jail and are abused by both the hardened criminals in there as well as the jail police. Guess what? They come out hardened criminals themselves!

    There was a story here in the US in one of the newspapers - the inmates of a jail had the chance to learn some form of Buddhist Yoga or contemplation. Prison officials reported remarkeble changes in the prisoners because of this - violent criminals were more calm and the violence and abuse in the jail declined significantly. Guess what, unfortunately since this is a christian country, the church put a stop to the Buddhist teachings.

    I am saying that is a better way, a pain-free way. This is the right way. You suffer the consequences of karma but not in a painful way. I am asking you to just once step away from your books and look for God in your heart and your mind. Who is your favorite God? Mine is Rama. For the life of me, I can't imagine my Rama in the role of a torturer. My Rama is not a Saddam Husain, he is no Hitler!

    "The idea of hell is a sub-set of full knowledge, denoting experience of pain. This world itself is pain and this world itself is madhu (honey)"

    Yes and now you are talking about Karma. The world is what you make it. Take two countries for example: One has bountiful natural resourses, oil-rich, can grow it's own food. The other has no oil, has to even import it's own food. Per capita income of these 2 countries? About $700 for the oil-rich country and $40,000 for the other! The countries are Nigeria & Japan respectively.

    You must also realize the time when these books were written. Thousands of years ago, we had very little. If you get a headache then there is little that you could do. If you suffer an injury and are screaming with pain, there was little help in those days. Less security in those days meant all the money you earned in your lifetime could be robbed from you and gone! I remember when I was young, people dying in their 50's. Go back a few thousand years and people dying in their 30's would not be uncommon. Image losing your loved ones at such a young age! The pain that these people had to endure just to live!

    But times are getting better now, let's change with the times.

    "Although you are largely correct, IMO, you are making a small mistake as the followers of Abrahamic religions also do. Repenting is submitting and that is good"

    No repenting and putting things right is better. It is called taking responsibility which is what I stress in my post. If I am driving a car and hit someone, do I just run away? Repent and ask for forgiveness from God? Or do I pick up the person, take him to a hospital, pay the bills, take care of his family while in the hospital. Now that's the better way.

    You are not seeing the sinister method of the Abrahamic religions, let's go one step further. They have rejected karma and rebirth, so now they have just heaven and hell. Let's say a person has done some bad things, how do you keep him in the fold? Why? Tell him that God will just forgive! How nice for him. Try being the abused child of a pedophile, you go to heaven and your abuser is sitting right there. How about the terrorists who rampaged mumbai killing innocent people? These people who have been murdered go to heaven and who do they see partying in there? The Terrorist who took them away from their hopes and dreams and their loved ones! Does that seem right to you?

    And this gets even worse. Remember heaven is for members only according to christians and muslims. So the terrorist who is muslim is in heaven and those who are killed by him if they are Hindus and other are sent to hell! What horrible values! They do it to try to gain converts, trying to frigten people into joining them.

    "Till it is not understood that God is our own Viveka, guiding us, the God as punisher or God as dispenser of heavenly rewards will reign"

    I am sorry I am just having a hard time seeing God as a punisher. Punishment never solved anything. If your child bring home a bad report card, do you use physical punishment? I am sorry that is the old ways, there are better ways now.

    "it is the self that slays and punishes the self. God has no role, except as a benevolent patient teacher -- as sadashiva, the teacher who takes brahmA to moksha"

    Thank you that is the essense of my post. Follow your own words, a patient does not hit her students, instead the patient teacher goes over the lesson again and again! That is the essence of karma and that is why we need multiple births. Mosha or Enlightened state is the goal of every Hindu (Not a flesh-happy heaven, please) and God is our Guru on this journey.


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    Re: Hell=Abuse;Karma=Teaching

    Quote Originally Posted by RamaRaksha View Post
    Are our values this common and so low? So God ties us up and uses her whip on us in hell?
    Dear Rama,

    Did I say that?

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Hell=Abuse;Karma=Teaching

    No you did not, but I am trying to picture hell - is it not a house of pain? You can't have it both ways.

    You are not realizing the great gift that Hinduism is giving us with doing away with the concept of Hell. First it forces us to take responsibiilty and second it is giving us a second chance to make things right.

    Let's take an exmple: You are at a bar or party and got a little drunk, or you have been driving overnight and are sleepy and lose focus. You are involved in a crash that is totally your fault. You die and go before God. Now with the Abrahamic religions you have just 2 choices, God can send you to hell to be punished or forgive you and send you to heaven. Because people don't like to be sent to hell, Abrahamic religions make a big deal of how God will forgive you, they don't want to scare you away.

    But with Karma and Rebirth you have a better choice. God will send you down again and will give you a chance to make things right. Help the victims family, you can't put everything right but you can hopefully make their lives better. You have taken responsibilty for your actions as well as worked towards making things right.

    If God gives me the choice of either forgiving me and sending me to heaven or giving me another chance to make things right, make me take responsibility for my actions, I would choose the latter every time!

    By the way, imagine a drunk who killed your loved ones, you end up in the hospital and later die. Imagine ascending to heaven and seeing the murderer having a nice time in heaven! So much for a forgiving God!

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