Important Message or Lunacy?

[satay]

Admin Note

Please report any posts that are personal attacks.

I think this thread has gone out of control but I believe the discussion will work itself out since it is among senior members who know the HDF rules and have good intentions at heart.

May I request all members (advaitin or not) to check their ego at the door.

Thanks,

[Harjas Kaur]

What separates Suras and the Asuras is nothing but the mode of speech -- abidance to Truth or to Untruth, respectively. I personally have a very big untruth binding me. Let me strive to overcome it.

Again, everything is in a context. This should not be applied to silence sincere opposition in a debate with judgment of who are "asuras." There is so much evidence which Gandhi opposers have articulated that to ignore in attempt to clarify a misquote is the error here. The quote is inflammatory. But it's not entirely without a basis in fact in other quotes which can be proved to be attributed to Gandhi teachings.

It is not my wish to argue on political matters. If I have argued with you it is just to point out again and again that women have the responsibilty of preserving and protecting the God's Universe.

Please take your time. I have a request. Please wash away the hurts. Accumulated sense of hurt influences how we see things. For example a Naxalite harbors a lot of mis-givings about injustice to him and his poor folks. Similarly, an extreme rightist thinks that it is his right to kill others or nuke other contries. But not equipped with the knowledge of Hinduism that "what you think you become", they do not know. A naxalite might have been a big industrialist and so forth.

Finally, no single man is responsible for anything. It kAla (Lord Time) who supervises and designs. No man or woman is demonic but temporarily negative thoughts may take control.

In this entire quote is a judgment of me personally. It is no discussion of the issues. It is no debate. I am accused as not having knowledge of Hinduism, of being overcome by negative "demonic" thoughts. And for what? Opposition to Gandhi?

75-77. 'By you this universe is borne, by you this world is created. By you it is protected, O Devi and you always consume it at the end. O you who are (always) of the form of the whole world, at the time of creation you are of the form of the creative force, at the time of sustentation you are of the form of the protective power, and at the time of the dissolution of the world, you are of the form of the destructive power. ~Devi Mahatmyam, Markandeya Purana chap.1 http://sdbbs.tripod.com/devi.html

Sikh women are first and foremost soldiers. So you belie fundamental ignorance of Sikhi teaching trying to correct as wrong thinking and make those rich traditions conform to your own interpretations of pacifistic spirituality.

First, we haven't explored how Gandhi's Jain beliefs have overshadowed Hinduism and literally rejected as "asuric" and "wrong" and "immoral" traditional Kshatriya Dharm. So already, in what you have written above, you have negated my own concept of Dharma. And the error here is not who is wrong, who is right, but why you are so Abrahamically certain only your interpretation of Hinduism is correct?

An argument can certainly be made that Gandhi and the Indian media and government have "imposed" a particular interpretation of Hindu religion while literally "creating" an opposition party out of traditional Hindus and Kshatriya communities. And this is important because it goes to the crux of the issues.

I receive many letters every day attacking me. Some say I have destroyed the Hindus, some others that I have been appeasing the Muslims. They make no impression on me. I seek to appeal to no one except God, for we are all His creatures, His servants. And why should I allow myself to be annoyed by these letters? How have I offended?

I only say that no one can protect his religion by doing sinful things or by committing atrocities on others. This applies to Hindus and Muslims alike. That Pakistan is a bad thing, I agree. What is there to rejoice over it? Our country has been divided. What is there in it to celebrate? For the last sixty years, since I was a schoolboy, I have believed that all Indians, be they Hindus, Muslims, Parsis or Christians, are brothers. Now that our land has been divided, does it mean that we should divide our hearts? How can the people of a country become two peoples? India can have only one people. When I say this they abuse me. Shall I listen to them and become a murderer? By so doing I shall only be harming myself. One is one’s own foe as well as one’s own friend. Hindus alone can destroy the Hindus and no one else.

Today flames are raging everywhere. Hinduism will be saved only if we can save ourselves from these flames. My physical powers are waning. I am no longer strong enough to put with this heat. It is a permanent law that truth ever triumphs and falsehood perishes. What I say is not addressed to the feeble of heart but to those who are brave and unselfish, those who know how to die defending their mother, their daughter and their religion. The man who can die happily is more courageous than the man who kills. I want the whole of India to rise to this standard of valour.

There is no denying the sincere conviction of the man. But any Kshatriya reading the above statement finds it just as inflammatory as comments about biting one's tongue to suicide during a rape. And not that suicide doesn't have a moral place in desperate circumstances to defend one's honor. But it is the promotion of suicide due to abhorrence and rejection of armed resistance which is contrary to Kshatriya Dharm.

Moreover it violates the injunction of the Shastras to raise the sword as last resort, and also same injunction given to Sikhs by 10th Guru Gobind Singh Ji. So equally, an argument can be made that Gandhi's strict interpretations of Ahimsa according to Jain Dharm, while good and right and beautiful and moral in their context become a SIN, MAHAPAAP when misapplied to whole of India and most especially when applied to Kshatriya Dharm. This is utter rejection of the caste-varna system. Society will fall into disorder if everybody is Kshatriya or everybody is a brahmin. And worse, if whole society is being manipulated to conform to some high ideal of a Jain whose only response is "suicide" in face of mortal enemies, then the entire Country will suicide to avoid the "sin" of it's own appropiate and equal defense.

(Continued)

[Harjas Kaur]

Jainism (pronounced /ˈdʒaɪnɪzəm/, also called Jain Dharma') is an ancient dharmic religion from India that prescribes a path of non-violence for all forms of living beings in this world... There are five basic ethical principles (vows) prescribed... Ahimsa, "Non-violence", is sometimes interpreted as not killing, but the concept goes far beyond that. It includes not harming or insulting other living beings, either directly, or indirectly through others... To kill any person, no matter their crime, is considered unimaginably abhorrent. History suggests that various strains of Hinduism became vegetarian due to strong Jain influences...

Jains are usually very welcoming and friendly toward other faiths and often help with interfaith functions. Several non-Jain temples in India are administered by Jains. A palpable presence in Indian culture, Jains have contributed to Indian philosophy, art, architecture, science, and to Mohandas Gandhi's politics, which led to the mainly non-violent movement for Indian independence. Though Mohandas Gandhi states clearly in his Autobiography that his mother was a Vaishnav, Jain monks visited his home regularly. He spent considerable time under the tutelage of Jain monks, learning the philosophies of non-violence and doing good always. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

This is Jain Dharm. Hindu Dharm accepts Jain Dharm within it, But doesn't REJECT Kshatriya Dharm. Jains and Gandhi strictly reject as abhorrent Kshatriya Dharm. This is the ERROR!


Kali Mata and Narasingh avatar

Hindu Dharm doesn't reject self-defense or response to provocation with equal force as immoral or asuric or misguided or unholy. Why do you think all the Devatay and Avtars are pictured ARMED with powerful weapons signifying capacity to destroy their enemies? Because there are no enemies? Do the Devatay and Avtaras suffer from deluded consciousness imagining enemies? Is this only symbolic as in Gandhi's interpretation of Bhagavad-Gita as being only about an interior struggle against one's own inner evil qualities and not being a true history of a war on Kurukshetra battlefield?

Jain Dharma shares some beliefs with Hinduism. Both believe in karma and reincarnation. However, the Jain version of the Ramayana and Mahabharata is different from Hindu beliefs, for example. Generally, Hindus believe that Rama was a reincarnation of God, whereas Jains believe he attained moksha (liberation) because they are free from any belief in a creator god... Mahatma Gandhi was deeply influenced (particularly through the guidance of Shrimad Rajchandra) by Jain tenets such as peaceful, protective living and honesty, and made them an integral part of his own philosophy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

Guru Gobind Singh Ji in Shri Dasm Granth has said the Sikh Guru lineage of Bedis and Sodhis are descended from Solar dynasty of Kshatriyas through sons of Ramachandra Ji of Avodhya, Lava and Kusha the ancient Dharmic rulers of Punjab. So Gandhi doesn't have the "only" interpretation. I don't even disagree with it. It is true that Bhagavatam describes interior battle of atma. But I also accept as equally true that Rajaputras and Sikhs have lineage descending from warrior Dharm and correctly obeying Bhagavan Krishna's injunction to "Rise up and fight!" as literal and physical and moral and good.

Jain fasting

Fasting is a tool for doing Tapa and to attach to your inner-being. It is a part of Jain festivals... But before starting the fast Jains take a small vow known as pachkaan. A person taking the vow is bound to it and breaking it is considered to be a bad practice... Most Jains fast at special times, like during festivals... However, a Jain may fast at any time, especially if s/he feels some mistake(negative karma generally known as paap has been committed...
A unique ritual in this religion involves a holy fasting until death; it is called sallekhana. Through this one achieves a death with dignity and dispassion as well as no more negative karma... This form of dying is also called Santhara / Samaadhi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

It's obvious where the problem lies, and it isn't with Hindu Dharma. It's with a narrow-minded interpretation of HIndu Dharma by a sincere and "holy" ascetic who adhered strictly to Jain beliefs, who tried to impose this religious interpretation as political reform on newly independent Nation of "secular" India after he rejected that it should be a Hindu Rashtra.

After all Punjab is a place where Lala Lajpat Rai was born. It is the home of brave men. It is the country of the Sikhs. I do not admire the bravery of the Sikhs wielding the sword. In my view true bravery is that which an unarmed man shows. But the people in the Punjab today talk of acquiring arms. When I asked them if they wanted money, they said, ��No, we want weapons.�� This mentality is again foreign. ~Prarthana Pravachan�I, pp. 182-7 http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL095.PDF

How can our mentality be foreign to our "Bapu?" Simple! Because he is not our bapu. He is Jain's bapu. And he has no right to force morality of non-violence and shame of armed resistance against all norms and traditions of HINDU Kshatriya Dharama! The power of his influence has estranged Hindus from Hindu teaching, because Gandhi REJECTED it. He didn't consider it as legitimate Dharm. He rejected it as EVIL! Just like Gandhi supporters do.

Q. Is it true that you advised some Sikhs, who came to seek your advice on certain matters, that Guru Govind Singh taught the use of the sword while you stood for non-violence, and therefore the Sikhs must be ready to choose the one or the other ?
A. The question is badly, if not mischievously, put. What I did say was that, if they thought the teaching of Guru Govind Singh excluded implicit belief in non-violence, they could not be consistent Congressmen so long as the Congress creed remained what it was. I added that they would be compromising themselves if they joined or remained in the Congress and might even damage their own cause. ~VOL. 77 : 16 OCTOBER, 1939 - 22 FEBRUARY, 1940 293 http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL077.PDF

And so are all Gandhi supporters have become Jains rejecting martial heritage and mentality of own warrior heritage. He has no right to put Lala Lajpat Rai over Guru Gobind Singh because he UTTERLY misunderstands and rejects moral basis of Kshatriya Dharma. Can you imagine promoting some modern guy who was unarmed and killed over Sikh Guru teaching? What kind of reform is this?

During his visit to Patna for the A.I.C.C., Sardar Mangal Singh drew my attention to an article in Young India entitled�My friend, the revolutionary� in the issue dated 9th April last. He told me that many Sikh friends were offended because they thought I have described Guru Govind Singh as a misguided patriot whereas I had glorified krishna. The Sardarji asked me to take an early opportunity of explaining what I meant by the passages he drew my attention to. The careful reader will note that my language is most guarded. I have made no positive assertion. All that I have said is that believing every statement made about the heroes mentioned including Guru Govind Singh to be true, had I lived as their contemporary I would have called every one of them a misguided patriot. But, in the very next sentence, I have hastened to add that I must not judge them and that I disbelieve history as far as the details of the acts of the heroes are concerned. My belief about the Sikh Gurus is that they were all deeply religious teachers and reformers, that they were all Hindus and that Guru Govind Singh was one of the greatest defenders of Hinduism. I believe, too, that he drew the sword in its defence. But I cannot judge his actions, nor can I use him as my model so far as his resort to the sword is concerned. What I would have done had I lived in his times and held the same views that I hold now I do not know. Such speculation I regard as perfect waste of time. ~32 THE COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI. Young India, 1-10-1925 http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL033.PDF

Should not non-Hindus rejoice in the purification of Hinduism ? Why may not the Congress allow and encourage social and religious reform from the Congress platform ? Non-violent politics cannot be divorced from moral uplift. And why does the correspondent forget that Khilafat itself was a purely religious cause ? There were non-Congress Hindus then as there are now who thought and think that it was a grave mistake made by the Congress in taking up the Khilafat wrong. I have no doubt whatsover as to the correctness of the Congress step. And if a similar thing occurred again, I should not hesitate to give my life in aiding my Muslim brethren. �A friend in need is a friend indeed.� I hope, therefore, that my correspondent and those who think like him will correct their thought and believe with me that every act of purification in any sect or community promotes the well-being of the whole, of which they from a part, and therefore deserves encouragement from all platforms. ~226 THE COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI
VOL. 77 : 16 OCTOBER, 1939 - 22 FEBRUARY, 1940 225
http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL077.PDF

This radical Jain was FORCING Jain Dharma down Hindu throats and this resulted in failed policies in which, in name of glorious suicide, over a million unprotected Hindus and Sikhs lost their lives while being shamed to die more bravely giving own families and lives as offering to Muslims who had declared "jihad."

The second question is: �What a silly old man you are that you cannot see how your ahimsa stinks. Your ahimsa can save neither the Hindus nor the Muslims. If we suffer you to live it is not for your ahimsa but in consideration of the services you have rendered to the country.�
What stinks in my nostrils is not my ahimsa but the blood that is flowing everywhere around me. My ahimsa smells sweet to me. A man who drinks nectar every day does not find it so sweet as when he drinks it after having swallowed a draught of poison. Ahimsa did not always smell as sweet as it does now. For then the atmosphere was permeated with ahimsa. But today when violence is giving out so much stench it is only my ahimsa which acts as an antidote. The letter also asks me why I am repeatedly meeting Mr. Jinnah. He is our enemy and we ought to keep away from him. The Baluchis similarly are our enemies and the Congress ought to have nothing to do with them. How can the Congress do so? Its mission is to serve all. I agree that Mr. Jinnah has done a disservice to the country in denouncing Hindus, especially savarna Hindus as his enemies. If a man acts wickedly one feels sorry but after all he is our brother. Hindus cannot go mad. Although Mr. Jinnah has got Pakistan it does not mean that we should cease to associate with him. ~Prarthana Pravachan�I, pp. 196-8 http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL095.PDF

This has nothing to do with tearing an illustrious "Hindu" to shreds as it does to analyze how Gandhi's political influence has crippled the country to appropriately respond to threats and alienated Kshatriya communities almost pushing Sikhs into pro-Muslim, anti-Hindu politics. These "blunders" cannot be ignored while people are "appalled" at some quote or misquote. The evidence is OVERWHELMING that Gandhi promoted nobility of SUICIDE over SELF-DEFENSE and this resulted in millions rapes and massacres.

So we've gone FAR BEYOND being appalled whether Gandhi specifically said a certain thing or not. The end result was the same. He promoted "defenselessness" and this is paap. His policies led to needless deaths. He WAS great in his own way. But he has been blown into a balloon of infallibility and that is the crime. It's a crime because it caused ordinary Hindu's to view Kshatriya Dharma as foreign and evil whose beliefs are equally holy, wise and beautiful and good!


Original Sikh Battle Standard from Anglo Sikh wars kept at Licterfeld War Museum Staffordshire, UK.

Jai Ma!

[saidevo]

namaste Harjas Kaur ji.

I am inclined to agree with almost every word of your posts No.186 and 187. Good that you have started building up the case on evidences found in talks and writings from Gandhi and about Gandhi. I haven't gone through your earlier posts in detail--I did have a sweeping glance though--but I believe the content your are publishing here is worth collecting into a book--a critical analysis on Gandhi the Man, the Mahatma and the Politician.

I strongly recommend that you formalise and organize your contents into a book and publish it on the Internet in Websites such as scribd.com. With some great knowledge about Hinduism (you have shown that you are Hindu at heart and a patriot of our great Nation) and possibly a thorough knowledge of Sikhism,--not to omit your excellent command on the English language--you are in a vantage position to critically analyse Gandhi and write a book about your findings.

As a first step, you might continue to post your findings here in this thread, drawing references specially from Gandhi's Collected Works and from other references, without worrying about (or replying to) what some members might say about your findings.

In the state of affairs that exist in India today under the dynasty of the Gandhi-Nehru rule with the Christian proxy behind it, the open Muslim appeasement it resorts to, and the divide-and-rule policy it adopts towards the majority Hindus, we need to critically examine the charisma of our leaders who only are supposed to have got us the Independence and educate our people, specially the youth.

[saidevo]

David Frawley on those who criticise Gandhi

David Frawley exposes in his article 'Gandhi, Nazis and Bad Hindus' how the West connects the political Gandhis of independent India to Mahatma Gandhi, believes that the Congress Party is all in favour of Gandhism and Gandhian legacy and labels those who criticise Gandhi as bad Hindus with fascist mentality. Some relevant portions of the article:

From the article 'Gandhi, Nazis and Bad Hindus' (Italics added)
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0403/105.html

Let's take a statement about Savarkar, who was mentioned in a recent Wall Street Journal article as such a Nazi sympathizer. Savarkar on the contrary was the main Indian leader who encouraged Indians to join the British run Indian Army in World War II as part of the allied war effort against Hitler, a move which Gandhi opposed as a violation of ahimsa. That doesn't sound like the action of a Nazi sympathizer. He also first raised the call for India's independence in Europe in the early twentieth century at a convocation of socialists, not fascists! But few will bother to check the sources for such statements and see if they are correct.

Such people (people who connect the Gandhis of Indian politics to Gandhiji) are usually Nehruvian, not Gandhian in their views, a distinction that is very important to understand. People in the West don't realize that Nehru himself was not a Gandhian, but a Fabian socialist and agnostic. While Gandhi said he was proud to be a Hindu, Nehru never made any such remarks. Gandhi's choice of Nehru, which many have regarded as Gandhi's greatest mistake, was not because Nehru shared Gandhi's mentality or life-style, but because Nehru represented an aspect of Indian society that Gandhi did not. Nehru was more of a British aristocrat than someone who really understood the traditions of his country.

Yet another part of this line of thinking is to condemn anyone who might criticize Gandhi, as if they were committing a mortal sin. That certain Hindu groups have those among them those who disagree with Gandhi on various points is regarded as proof that these organizations are regressive, if not fascist. Such people ignore the fact that many great Indian leaders and thinkers including Sri Aurobindo, J. Krishnamurti and even Rabindranath Tagore at times were critical of Gandhi, who himself referred to his own Himalayan blunders. One can criticize Gandhi without rejecting Gandhi's greatness altogether, much less being sympathetic to Gandhi's assassination or a fascist.

We should remember that Indian leftists and communists have often been very critical of Gandhi, though they avoid saying this in the West today, and he was opposed to them as well, considering Marxism to be a dangerous and erroneous ideology.

[TatTvamAsi]

Goodness this thread has formed into a beast!

It contains a great amount of truthful information about India along with Gandhi/Nehru policy that shaped the pre & post partitioned India.

Anyway, I think Harjas Kaur ji has beautifully described the assumptions that Gandhi and consequently his close followers held and still do nowadays.

There is a great Tamil saying, "PAttiraM aRindhu picchai idu!" Loosely translated, this means 'measure the size of the container and know the person you are giving alms to'. This applies here because Gandhi's compassion and version of non-violence cannot be applied blindly to everyone, especially violent, rabid muslims, devious christians, and the dangerous separatists (maoists etc.).

That is all we Hindus are saying! Since when have Hindus gone to other communities and attacked, coerced, tricked, and wrought havoc? Hindus always REACT to the atrocities committed upon them by other groups; primarily muslims and christians in India.

Instead of supporting the Hindus' cause and seeing the truth, the pseudo-secular Hindus and other anti-Indians blindly side with the aggressors. Remember, when the time comes, and hopefully soon it will come, the phlegmatic Hindus will be shown no quarter!

JAI HIND!

Namaskar.

[amra]

The lengths some people go to justify mass murder, gives me an insight into how the Nazi's must have thought. They were also influenced by 'spiritual' values the german Volk movement Goethe wagner and all were influenced by a spirituality that became focused on the national state of Germany i.e. Germany is the home of pure spirituality and decent salt of the earth people the German Volk. These people who justify mass murder are doing exactly the same thing - making a spiritualism - 'Sanatana Dharma' - into the focus of the nation state and therefore all other ideas and beliefs are inferior and 'Dangerous' therefore correct to be destroyed. The Nazis also said the Jews were polluting the pure values of the germans taking their jobs etc like the supporters of India now exaggerate the threat of muslims.