Karma Yoga Question

[Penumbra]

Hi,

This is my first post here. I'm a westerner that is only a little bit knowledgeable about Sanatana Dharma. I've read an English translation of the Bhagavad Gita, and I've taken some religion classes to make myself knowledgeable about world religions.

Basically, my question pertains to Karma Yoga. As I understand it, the purpose of Karma Yoga is that you continue to do actions in life, but you avoid the fruits of Karma by sacrificing them to God. This makes it so you don't accumulate Karma (good or bad) and can therefore liberate to Moksha. So you do the actions without desire for the benefits of those actions to ensure that you don't accumulate Karma.

My question is, if one knows that by doing this they will liberate and achieve Moksha, then don't they have desire? Are they just replacing their desire in worldy things with desire for liberation? What makes this kind of desire not accumulate Karma, but other kinds of desire do? Or is desire supposed to be eliminated completely, even desire for Moksha?

Thanks,

-Lyn

[Eastern Mind]

Welcome to HDF.

There are probably many variations within Hinduism to this question. So ypo get to pichk and choose based on which makes the most sense.

Firstly, moksha is everyone's destiny. It is only the rate of progress that may vary. Yes, karma yoga is service without desire for reward. At this point, until we get very close, the desire for moksha or self-realisation needs to be strong. Otherwise there would be no reason to renounce the world, or go deep within, or strive. But, as I understand it, yes the desire for moksha must also be dropped.

Aum Namasivaya

[saidevo]

Namaste Lyn.

My question is, if one knows that by doing this they will liberate and achieve Moksha, then don't they have desire? Are they just replacing their desire in worldy things with desire for liberation? What makes this kind of desire not accumulate Karma, but other kinds of desire do? Or is desire supposed to be eliminated completely, even desire for Moksha?

This is a good question, and here are my two cents for a likely answer.

The answer is perhaps that MokSha is not something we reach after a long and weary travel but the realization of our ultimate nature as Self. So, the desire to know our true Self is the holiest of all desires, a divine desire with no tag of karma attached. All 'sAdhana' towards MokSha in one sense boils down to two distinctive elements: love and compassion. Love for God, Brahman, present in every being and atom and space of the universe and compassion towards others for their present level of spiritual advancement.

Again Love as a desire tends to be possessive, but love for God generates only compassion, sympathy and a desire to help. Such love of course generates good karma but again if we desire that no karma should be attached to our JIvAtma, the individual self--that is if we realize that after all there is only one Self--all the fruits of that karma would naturally flow towards the One Self.

The universe was created because of Brahman's desire to know more of its Self rather than just remain being itself. Brahman offsets this desire by desiring to return to the old Self, which is why the desire for Self-Realization is inherent and importunate in us and is our legacy.

[Ekanta]

My contribution:
Karma-yoga itself doesnt liberate. As long as there is ignorance there is rebirth. The purpose of karma-yoga is to give you a pure sattvic mind and turn the mind inwards.
Pure mind admits concentration (bhakti-yoga) and concentration admits investigation into the nature of "I" (jnana-yoga).
"avoid the fruits of Karma by sacrificing them to God" as well as "desire for moksha" must in the end be termed ignorance.
So karma-yoga is the base. The final yearning for liberation is removed by jnana-yoga when union with brahman is realized (which cant be realized without a pure mind, i.e. karma-yoga). Its also said that bhakti-yoga in the final state will also lead to this jnana by the grace of God (if the devotee wants it or not). Bhakti-yoga will also lead to karma-yoga, when God is seen as the indweller in all. This is a form of lower jnana. So there is a unity in all 3, karma, bhakti and jnana.

[Penumbra]

Thank you for your responses.

Welcome to HDF.

There are probably many variations within Hinduism to this question. So ypo get to pichk and choose based on which makes the most sense.

Firstly, moksha is everyone's destiny. It is only the rate of progress that may vary. Yes, karma yoga is service without desire for reward. At this point, until we get very close, the desire for moksha or self-realisation needs to be strong. Otherwise there would be no reason to renounce the world, or go deep within, or strive. But, as I understand it, yes the desire for moksha must also be dropped.

Aum Namasivaya

Thank you. My one question in response would be this:
-You say that until we get close, desire for moksha needs to be strong, and then it is dropped. But if we have desire for moksha, how does one progress and get close to moksha? Wouldn't this desire be accumulating karma and therefore keep someone away from moksha?

Or do you feel that accumulating good karma brings one closer to Moksha or at least closer to a pure mind?

Namaste Lyn.

This is a good question, and here are my two cents for a likely answer.

The answer is perhaps that MokSha is not something we reach after a long and weary travel but the realization of our ultimate nature as Self. So, the desire to know our true Self is the holiest of all desires, a divine desire with no tag of karma attached. All 'sAdhana' towards MokSha in one sense boils down to two distinctive elements: love and compassion. Love for God, Brahman, present in every being and atom and space of the universe and compassion towards others for their present level of spiritual advancement.

Again Love as a desire tends to be possessive, but love for God generates only compassion, sympathy and a desire to help. Such love of course generates good karma but again if we desire that no karma should be attached to our JIvAtma, the individual self--that is if we realize that after all there is only one Self--all the fruits of that karma would naturally flow towards the One Self.

The universe was created because of Brahman's desire to know more of its Self rather than just remain being itself. Brahman offsets this desire by desiring to return to the old Self, which is why the desire for Self-Realization is inherent and importunate in us and is our legacy.

Thanks. This has been a particularly helpful response.

If my understanding is correct, you're saying that desire for moksha is not causing karma because it's something that we already have- it's just us trying to discern our true nature. This seems logical.

One thing in your post I don't understand is how love tends to be possessive, but love for god tends to be not be possessive. I'm sure it's different in different parts of the world, but it seems that a majority of people who love or worship a god tend to do so partly or mainly because they feel they will receive benefit in doing so.

My contribution:
Karma-yoga itself doesnt liberate. As long as there is ignorance there is rebirth. The purpose of karma-yoga is to give you a pure sattvic mind and turn the mind inwards.
Pure mind admits concentration (bhakti-yoga) and concentration admits investigation into the nature of "I" (jnana-yoga).
"avoid the fruits of Karma by sacrificing them to God" as well as "desire for moksha" must in the end be termed ignorance.
So karma-yoga is the base. The final yearning for liberation is removed by jnana-yoga when union with brahman is realized (which cant be realized without a pure mind, i.e. karma-yoga). Its also said that bhakti-yoga in the final state will also lead to this jnana by the grace of God (if the devotee wants it or not). Bhakti-yoga will also lead to karma-yoga, when God is seen as the indweller in all. This is a form of lower jnana. So there is a unity in all 3, karma, bhakti and jnana.

Thank you for your contribution. If I understand you, you're saying that karma yoga is a good stepping stone to other yogas that can bring liberation, but that karma yoga itself generally cannot. I've read this before actually, that jnana yoga without karma yoga only leads to empty debates instead of true progress.


Thank you for your responses, and if anyone feels like addressing the one or two questions I've asked in this response, or wants to contribute a new post to the original question, that is appreciated. If not, that's fine, because these responses have been great.

-Lyn

[Eastern Mind]

The desire for moksha would not accumulate karma. Moksha is a legitimate spiritual goal. It is the other desires for adharmic things that would accrue karma. (That is, karma that will in future need to be worked out.) Karma yoga accrues punya, which is 'good' karma. I put the good in quotations because on a deeper level there is no good/bad. I do a lot of karma yoga presently, and when people come to the temple where I do this, they often say, "Oh you're earning punya", but then I reply, "You've already earned it, otherwise why would you be given this opportunity to come here and worship God to your heart's content? They have progressed to bhakti.

Aum Namasivaya

[sankar]

a Gautama quote,
“All that we are is the result of what we have thought....”

to my understanding, moksha is a state of non-attachment and no-desire. As we are naturally is in a state of attachment and desire, to move to a state of no-desire it requires a desire initially which should be then dropped.

Before we enter into meditation, normally we thinks about meditation, but once we are in meditation there would be no thoughts, so here thoughts led to no-thoughts.

I think it requires practice to understand this in complete, note that it is spirituality, some ideas are hard to convey through words, we all know the importance of practice for realizing spiritual truths.




regards...