Does science have all answers?

[TruthSeeker]

Hi nirotu,

You are right when you say that the repentent Hitler would be saved. He might be spared of the fury of hell depending on the extent of his repentance. However there would be no equivalent repentance possible for an ignorant Hitler who destroyed so many people, so some time in hell is unavoidable. Anyway, these have nothing to do with the Turiya consciousness we have been talking about.True repentance, coupled with
a strong resolution of not repeating the mistakes is a step towards enlightenment.( which you closed down as the final accomplishment!)

Dharma talks about three destinations after death. The dream state (Taijasa) or the astral world, where the soul is judged( the Judgement Day!) by Lord Yama(Jesus) and either sent to heaven or hell. Christianity is primarily talking of this destination. This stay may be short or long. It has many grades of experience. Christians who commit any sins and repent are saved by Yama and sent to the heaven, and those who do not repent are sent to the hell.

The state of deep sleep( Pranjna) or the Brahma Loka. This is the high heaven of no return to earth. Christians who have followed the teachings of Jesus to the core, would probably reach this world, and live with Brahma, who is God the father(creator of earth and heaven). Those who reach here will attain Turiya consciousness through the grace of Brahma much later on.

The state of Turiya is progressively non dual, and at its peak, no indidividual existance remains. This is not addressed by Christianity, and these states are not attained by the repenting layman, but only by a fully awakened sage free from all sin of dualty.

Hindus are very much aware of the teachings of nirotu, and how repenting for sins would save us from the wrath of Yama and his hellfire. All these states after death can be known and experienced right here on earth, while you are still alive.(no need to die to verify them)

There is nothing in Christianity that is not covered by Dharma. Christianity's "easy" ways are known to Dharma adherents as the way to heaven. Hindus also know that these heavens are perishable and not of lasting value.

Since there is nothing much going on here, except repetitions, I am quitting of this discussion until I find something more solid to reply on.

[nirotu]

You might want to answer this question. Would a Hitler be able to do that, having acquired terrible impressions in his mind?

Dear Sudarshan:

Hitler did not do that because he surrendered to his own will. That simple act of child like surrender to the grace did not take place in his life. You see, grace would have done the rest if only he had taken that first step. That simple first step is what I have been talking about all along. You see, freewill plays a role in our lives, doesn’t it? That is one thing God will never violate. The choices we make shape our lives, and likewise, the choice Hitler made shaped his life.

Arjuna, the greatest warrior who had the most powerful weapon, Gandeeva, could single handedly take on the entire army of Kaurva. Yet, he humbled himself with a childlike surrender bowed before grace with a desire for greater wisdom. He made that initial move and rest was up to grace to lead him. Grace does not come seeking you but you have to make that first move- that’s all. What stops people from doing that is the pride.

You see, it is all a matter of heart and not of mind. There is a tendency in you to make religion a more an affair of the head than of the heart or will. All you keep bringing is some formula to follow in order to attract grace yet ignore that initial step. In the absence of such a simple initial act, a mechanical repetition of the formula “I am Brahman” is a sorry substitute.

Blessings,

[nirotu]

Since there is nothing much going on here, except repetitions, I am quitting of this discussion until I find something more solid to reply on.

Dear Truthseeker:

I think you are right. You recognized before I did. Let us not waste anymore of the precious "bandwidth" on this.

I do thank you for your thoughtful insight and your perspective.

Blessings,

[Sudarshan]

Namaste Nirotu.

Hitler did not do that because he surrendered to his own will. That simple act of child like surrender to the grace did not take place in his life. You see, grace would have done the rest if only he had taken that first step. That simple first step is what I have been talking about all along. You see, freewill plays a role in our lives, doesn’t it? That is one thing God will never violate. The choices we make shape our lives, and likewise, the choice Hitler made shaped his life.

Hitler could not do it because he had not evolved enough. As simple as that. He will be allright in due course. While your God is so considerate towards a Hitler and forgives all his sins just because he repented, but does not care a least for many others who do not beleive in God, yet have Godly qualities? I find no logic in this. Beleif in God and seeking God's grace is itself not accident, and freewill has nothing to do with it. A Christian cannot understand. You think God had some short comings and he created people to serve him and he expects obedience. We think there was no need for creation of any kind, and he never created any soul. If God were graceful like you say nobody would be in this wilderness of the cruel world. We think God is omniscient and nothing has happened here without God's will nor will anything happen in future.

Krishna has explicitly stated that in Bhagavad Gita.

O Arjuna, as the Supreme Lord, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things in future. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.(7.26)

This sets to rest anybody concerns for others, and the Lord is just sporting and has definite plans for everybody. They will beleive in God when he decides, and will seek him when he wants. If you have these qualities, be thankful for that.

Frewill does not exist from God's perspective since that would compromise the omniscience of God. Any being that is not omniscient cannot be God. Saints and sages will talk a lot about the glories of God, but you will pay heed only when your time comes.

Arjuna, the greatest warrior who had the most powerful weapon, Gandeeva, could single handedly take on the entire army of Kaurva. Yet, he humbled himself with a childlike surrender bowed before grace with a desire for greater wisdom. He made that initial move and rest was up to grace to lead him. Grace does not come seeking you but you have to make that first move- that’s all. What stops people from doing that is the pride.

I guess you have never been reading a single post here. It has been explictly stated by many people in this thread, that grace has to be sought by you by rising to that level - by getting rid of your mental impurities. This is the apparent freewill, You cannot choose grace without deserving it. That would be incompatible with Hindu Philosophy. Most devoted people who are in bondage in the world were definitely devotees
in former births, but that that is not sufficient. Your devotion must be of a unique nature to win's God grace.

You see, it is all a matter of heart and not of mind. There is a tendency in you to make religion a more an affair of the head than of the heart or will. All you keep bringing is some formula to follow in order to attract grace yet ignore that initial step. In the absence of such a simple initial act, a mechanical repetition of the formula “I am Brahman” is a sorry substitute.

Sorry, I am not an advaitin who claims "I am Brahman". I am a servant of Lord Krishna, Apart from his graceful nature, this creation is a sport for him, and he expects you to win your liberation by having a unique devotion. If not, I would not be in bondage now, after many past incarnations. It just shows people have not risen to the mark set by the Lord, whatever it is. The mark is certainly more than the "Christian faith". Surrender to God means completely surrender of everything.

There is a huge barrier that separates man and God, and there is need for equal contribution from both man and God to bridge this gap. The soul on liberation is nearly equal to God according to most Hindu traditions, can you imagine that? How is it possible to make such a quantum leap in a single day after death? So spiritual progress will happen only in stages, and for most Hindus who think of God being the material cause of everything will only laugh at your concept of grace. It is only the Lord who is present everywhere, in you and me, and where should we seeking grace? Everything in life happens as per divine will and you can even move your finger without that divine power acting through you. You birth, death and liberation are at the sole discretion of this All Powerful, All wise and Allmighty God.

Man on his own effort alone can never cross the barrier, and at the same time he cannot remain silent too, since the sport of God requires him to make effort to find him. You must try to find God by complete surrender of all actions and thiinking of God all the times, 24 X 7. I dont beleive in any other way. If you skip the path of Bhakti Yoga , the path of enlightenment, you need to place all trust in God and must eat, bath, sleep and even breathe God to win his grace. It is like a competetition between souls as to who can do it best, and if you are not amongst the best, you have another round.

As Christianity says, freewill is your danger. Use it fully to spend every moment of your life in thinking of God and keep awaiting him. That is the perfect surrender you can do, and anything else will not be sufficient to win your liberation. Dont just profess to trust in the grace of God and waste away you life in doing mundane activities - that will not take you to the goal.

The only true surrender to God is keeping the mind focussed on God as much as you can, and doing every action dedicated to God, which will lead to vision of God. Otherwise it is only partial surrender only.

[Sudarshan]

What is true love and surrender to God?

Dhruva was born a son of the King Uttanapada (who was the son of Svayambhuva Manu) and his wife Suniti. The king also had another son Uttama, born to his second queen Suruchi, who was the preferred object of his affection. Once, when Dhruva was but a child of five years of age, the two princes playfully raced towards their father's lap. But, the headstrong Suruchi chided Dhruva and insulted him for trying to woo the attention of his father, when he did not deserve it because "he was not born to her." She further mocked at his plight, by asking him to redeem himself by seeking Vishnu's blessings.

Suniti consoled the distraught child, by asking him to take Suruchi's words seriously and to observe penance in meditation of the Lord. She bid him farewell as he set out on a lonely journey to the forest. Dhruva was determined to seek for himself his rightful place, and noticing this resolve, the divine sage Narada appeared before him and tried to desist him from assuming a severe austerity upon himself at such a tender age. But, Dhruva's fierce determination knew no bounds, and the astonished sage guided him towards his goal by teaching him the rituals and mantras. The one mantra which Narada taught and which was effectively used by Dhruva was OM NAMO BHAGAVTE VASUDEVAYA.

Having been advised thus, Dhruva started his penance, and went without food and water for six months, his mind fixed on the Lord. The austerity of his penance shook the heavens and the Lord appeared before him, but the child would not open his eyes because he was still merged in his inner vision of Vishnu's form described to him by Narada. Lord Vishnu had to adopt a strategy by causing that inner vision to disappear. Immediately Dhruva opened his eyes and seeing outside what he was all along seeing inside his mental eyes, prostrated before the Lord. But he could not utter a single word either because of his childhood or because of the consternation he felt on seeing the Lord before him. The Lord touched his right cheek by his divine conch and that sparked off his speech. Out poured forth a beautiful poem of praise of the Lord in 12 powerful verses, which together are called Druva Shruti.

Having spent a long time in the Lord's remembrance he even forgot the objective of his penance, and only asked for a life in memory of the Lord. Pleased by his penance and by his stuti, Vishnu granted his wish and further decreed that the lad would attain Dhruvapada - the state where he would become a celestial body which would not even be touched by the Maha Pralaya, or the final cataclysm.

[atanu]

Dear Sudarshan:

Hitler did not do that because he surrendered to his own will. That simple act of child like surrender to the grace did not take place in his life. ----

Neither has surrender taken place in you Nirotu. You have repeatedly preached of holding god's hand in child like fashion. Are you doing it? Can you see the hand? Show me the hand and I will also grasp it. Do not teach what you have not experienced. I see you contradicting yourself again and again. Earlier you said that without grace nothing happens. Now you say: Hitler did not surrender. Could he surrender even if he wanted?

Can you say: "Yes, I seem to have contradicted myself"? No you cannot. Since you have not surrendered.

You see, it is all a matter of heart and not of mind. There is a tendency in you to make religion a more an affair of the head than of the heart or will. All you keep bringing is some formula to follow in order to attract grace yet ignore that initial step. In the absence of such a simple initial act, a mechanical repetition of the formula “I am Brahman” is a sorry substitute.

Blessings,

Is your confused gibberish sorry substitute for anything? Nirotu, you know very well that "I am Brahman" is not a japa mantra for mechanical repetition but a realisation of the true being in the heart but you are using such statements with a hidden motive, which is clear like daylight to me.

You are acting with a design for a purpose and that is no surrender dear.

Om

[nirotu]

Originally Posted by nirotu
Dear Sudarshan:

Hitler did not do that because he surrendered to his own will. That simple act of child like surrender to the grace did not take place in his life. ----


Neither has surrender taken place in you Nirotu. You have repeatedly preached of holding god's hand in child like fashion. Are you doing it? Can you see the hand? Show me the hand and I will also grasp it.

Yes Atanu, I am the first one to acknowledge that, where I am now, I have not been able to fully surrender! Yes, it’s been a struggle with me. That’s precisely why I am emphasizing the starting point from “ego-I” plane to a childlike one as a key to the rest of our journey, which may appear simple yet is the most difficult part. While this act may appear simple, don’t underestimate the hold of ego. Given the nature of matter it takes time. If I may say so, the fact that we are able to engage in a dialogue of this nature (instead of steeped in worldly thought) already shows that, in our own simple way, we are holding the hand of grace.

Otherwise, can you imagine struggling Nirotu now actually believing and muttering and claiming the “knowledge of truth” when in fact his reality is quite different (as you have pointed out!)? While such a goal is lofty and noble, let us be honest not deny the harsh reality of the starting point.

As in any mathematical presentation, for example a graph, the starting point is required to make sense out of the whole data and to give a meaning to the data.

Do not teach what you have not experienced.

I do not intend to teach you or anyone. I am reminding us how an ego minded “I” can think it can do it all and yet deep inside, the struggle goes on. I have shown well in my above notes, I am also, as much if not more, in the midst of this same struggle. Any comments that we make here are not suggesting that we have attained it but we are sharing the way to attain it. I do believe, unless one actually attains it (enlightenment) same struggle is shared by every human being.

I see you contradicting yourself again and again. Earlier you said that without grace nothing happens. Now you say: Hitler did not surrender. Could he surrender even if he wanted?

Given what I have been emphasizing, the answer for Hitler would be yes. All Hitler needed to do was take that initial step. Why did he not do that? All he needed was to realize that his ego was due to his disconnect with God! It is well known that all drive to power and ambition comes from the fear of being alone. There is an old adage that goes something like this, “Power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely”. In my view, he claimed himself to be just as powerful as God and felt lonely at the top! Thus, did not choose to surrender to the will of God. Hitler needed to realize that he was not alone and that hand of grace with outstretched arms was waiting for that initial move from him. It all depends on the nature of man, nature of God and the connect between the two. Obviously, in case of Hitler there was this deep disconnect.

Can you say: "Yes, I seem to have contradicted myself"? No you cannot. Since you have not surrendered.

Let me assure you that I am not contradicting but consistent. In this struggle, that is about all one could possibly do – surrender by overcoming that first hurdle. This amazing simple looking act itself is quite difficult to do due to the pull of the matter world.

I caution here, the word surrender is quite a deep word. It is not a surrender of a self-realized person that I am talking about but an initial act.

If Christ (grace) could forgive those who crucified Him, think how much grace would do to help those who just wish for Him or think of Him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirotu
You see, it is all a matter of heart and not of mind. There is a tendency in you to make religion a more an affair of the head than of the heart or will. All you keep bringing is some formula to follow in order to attract grace yet ignore that initial step. In the absence of such a simple initial act, a mechanical repetition of the formula “I am Brahman” is a sorry substitute.

Blessings,



Is your confused gibberish sorry substitute for anything? Nirotu, you know very well that "I am Brahman" is not a japa mantra for mechanical repetition but a realization of the true being in the heart but you are using such statements with a hidden motive, which is clear like daylight to me.

You are acting with a design for a purpose and that is no surrender dear.

I hope you can see with an open heart, from my response, that there is no hidden agenda or a motive, which is farthest from my mind. I have been very honest in my words. Please, do not misinterpret to mean something that is not true.

When “ego-I” mutters “I am Brahman” without ever taking that initial step, it can spend the whole life time caught in that loop with no way out. Now it really begins to think “I am God”. I am not addressing the experiencing of “I am Brahman” but, who is muttering it. Is it “ego-I” or “ego-free I”, which again brings us back to the same theme of how much that initial shift is needed.

So my friend, since we are dealing with such a subtle and complex matter, I urge you that when my comments appear contradicting, please try to see them in the light of my basic idea of initial shift in man. Only in this context will they appear consistent.


Blessings,

[atanu]

------
When “ego-I” mutters “I am Brahman” without ever taking that initial step, it can spend the whole life time caught in that loop with no way out. Now it really begins to think “I am God”. I am not addressing the experiencing of “I am Brahman” but, who is muttering it. Is it “ego-I” or “ego-free I”, which again brings us back to the same theme of how much that initial shift is needed.

--------


Blessings,

This post of yours was of a different flavour.

But please check up, how carelessly you tend to denigrate advaitic experience of sages which are enshrined in time less scriptures. Instead of saying "I do not have the experience" you have often denigrated as value less the experiences of which you have no idea at all.

Can I denigrate experience of Christ lovers like that? It is always OK to say "Well this is my position based on what God has ordained for me". Possibly, having no grounding in the awareness of Karma, you are not appreciating that there is no single prescription for all jivas. And also you contradict your "grace is all" statement when you assume the role of a reformer.


And regarding "I am Brahman", there is absolutely no possiblity of this experience with even a trace of desire present and individual ego is nothing but desire. But scripture encourages us to contemplate, enquire, and meditate on the knowledge -- to know that ego is simply a notion, which has solidfied as if.


Namaskar and Regards

Om Namah Shivayya

[nirotu]

This post of yours was of a different flavour.

But please check up, how carelessly you tend to denigrate advaitic experience of sages which are enshrined in time less scriptures. Instead of saying "I do not have the experience" you have often denigrated as value less the experiences of which you have no idea at all.

My dear Atanu:

Once again you take my words out of context. This is not pertaining to the Sages but only in the functioning realm of “ego”. Once again, I urge you (possibly for the last time) to please view all my comments in the light of my basic premise which is addressed as the starting point of the “ego” state and not from “Turia” state.

Sages have truly devoted every moment of their entire life to be immersed in the experience of God. That is why they are called “Alvars”. Repeadly, you failed to grasp the level I am coming from (ego-I state). As you and I well know, no true Sage is functioning in this realm that I am talking about. So the leap that you make has no logic in the context of my comments.

There is a fundamental difference between us. While I am addressing the ego realm, which I claim to be the “starting point” of human spiritual journey, you are addressing the “goal” of the journey. As long as this difference exists we will go in circles. Therefore, unless you keep my paradigm in mind, this talk will be of no value.

Possibly, having no grounding in the awareness of Karma, you are not appreciating that there is no single prescription for all jivas.

With all due respect, I beg to disagree with you. I do think there is a single, simple prescription for all jeevas and that is to become humble and childlike and this starting point becomes catalyst for the rest of the spiritual journey.

And regarding "I am Brahman", there is absolutely no possiblity of this experience with even a trace of desire present and individual ego is nothing but desire.

With the above statement of yours, I rest my case! The harshness of the pull of ego can’t be any clearer than what you say. But if the pull is so strong, only an equal and opposing pull of grace that can break it if only that ego can make that initial turnaround to grace.

But scripture encourages us to contemplate, enquire, and meditate on the knowledge -- to know that ego is simply a notion, which has solidfied as if.

While we are strongly encouraged to ponder over knowledge in a meditative mind, we need not condemn human reality as illusory if it is unable to lift the veil, which covers all ultimate truth.

Once again I emphasize that unless we can agree on the fundamental context within which the comments are being made, it might be pointless to continue.

Blessings,

[TruthSeeker]

Namaste Nirotu,

Why are you always in stage one? You mentioned that grace is the starting point of the journey and everyone accepted here. The grace has given me beleif in God, and I beleive in a supernatural power, and know that there is something beyond my perishable body and the thinking mind. I also realize that if I die without obtaining a vision of this supreme being, I will be born again to suffer in this world. So what am I supposed to do to acheive this end?

What is Christianity's answer to this question? Should I just beleive that Jesus has done everything needed to achieve this end, and all I need to do is to beleive in his story? You have not suggested any practical solution, except repentance and faith- which cannot lead to the goal by themselves.

You have terribly misconstructed Atanuji. He has clarified that different people have different temperaments in accordance with their nature acquired from previous birth. Those who have achieved a good progress in spirituality will retain the impressions and will be born with a higher consciousness and awakening and they might need no one to guide them towards God. But those who still percieve this perishable world apart from rahman, must undertake some spiritual discipline for the realization of this goal and this method is not the same for everyone. Some people benefit from doing works without enjoyment of fruits, some from profuse devotion towards the Personal God, and some people are gifted with the ability to meditate on the Absolute.

The devotion and surrender towards God cannot be accomplished by force, it comes on its own accord due to my sincereity in the accomplishment of the goal and by acts of purity which trigger the grace of God. Without doing any spiritual practice to purify the body and mind, no progress is possible. God cannot destroy your material desires as it is infering with your freewill. Beleiving in the grace of God must be supplemented with earnest pursuit of one spiritual discipline in accordance with your temperament and Karma. Hinduism does not teach otherwise. Your freewill in the form of material desires will stand as an obstacle and cannot be crossed over without developing intense devotion towards God, so intense that the world appears superflous to you by comparison. That is not possible without a higher awareness about God, and for the worldly minded men still enamoured of wealth and fame have no chance. Bhakti Yoga is the meditation on the personal God, staring from a symbolic image of God such as a linga or a form like that of Krishna, culminating in a vision of the Cosmic Universal Form of God, which bestows grace and destroys the Karma. This is one way out of the worldly bondage.

The other way is to directly engage in Self Realization or the Impersonal Absolute, if you are qualified due to such practice performed in an earlier birth.

You have not moved from stage one, and have not given us any practical method to follow. You might probably start from strictly following the "Sermon on the Mount" to the very word instead of emphasising the words "grace" and "surrender". Prove them by deeds rather than by words. If these rules are not there to be strictly followed, the religion is just materialsm in disguise. These will constitute approximately the Yamas and Niyamas of Yoga, and will serve a long way in further progress. Dont rest until you have permenently settled in the consciousness of God. Cast aside mere words like surrender and grace, and prove them by actions that culminate in the final goal. If a person could think of God 24X7, he would certainly achieve the goal, and whatever you do now must head in that direction if you are very serious of God realization in this birth. Nobody has known any short cuts. To attain God, think of God all the time, there is no other way that guarantees it.