Does science have all answers?

[atanu]

--

In that context, I suggest that the first step in Godz realization is to allow a space ... a darkness which contrasts the Light .. for entrance. This could be called prayer, meditation .. the Name is not so important as the experience, I think.

ZN

Yes, ZNN.

I did not wish to but I am inclined, this time positively, to add a bit.

Taking the mind there requires utmost skill and will not happen with most. Mind (ego) is a monkey. It will not go and stay there for even a second, since it knows that it will be slain there.

Requires infinite patience, perseverance and grace of God.

Om Namah Shivayya

[Sudarshan]

A boy of 4 ft will not see what is on a table of 6 ft. and He starts denying the view of a six ft. person and often becomes abusive also.


Rest of your post requires no answering. Only this requires a rejoinder. The example itself indicates the narrow span of the view. You have taken as example an object of a very short span, which was created, apparently by man, but truly with the power of consciousness, to synchronise with a power of God called time --- the relative movement of Sun.

Thelarger perspective is that a man on waking finds that the sun and all other elemets of nature have taken their own course and he is set in a pattern to think that these things happen apart from the consciousness. The problem is that a noosed consciousness is not able to appreciate the infinite ONE CONSCIOUSNESS, who is the creator and keeper of time and all of the nature.

This infinite consciousness has a Tamiswaram -- the controller of Gunas -- apparently a passive seer but Param Paraasrad. All these are created by the Tapas of Narayaana. Apparently, the seer Rudra does nothing. But Yajur Veda has a verse: The Sun did not shine. Gods prayed to Rudra and Soma. Thereby He restored the shine.

There are many other verses indicating the infinite power of chintamani consciousness, which is true god everywhere and within. It is ONE. And Vedas speak of Tamiiswaram Lord and other yogis who harness this infinite consciousness. The whole of so-called creation exists in this consciousness. Gautama muni (from Rig Veda), parts a mountain and brings down a river, employing Maruts. Visvamitra creates an army from his mind. And Vashista destroys that army by another army created from a durva grass. Vama Deva exclaimed "I created the Sun, I created the Moon". The Rig Veda is an eulogy to this infinite consciousness, which is the seer/the seeing/the seen as one entity.

The yogi who merges in this infiniteness, without any desire becomes That.

Coming back to the clock. A yogi can stop it. He can also make it vanish. Advaitin yogis will not do it for you. But lesser siddhas do it. Being of limited view jivas hold that an appearance existing in consciousness (which really is the infinite consciousness alone), as an independent object. Can any object exist outside the consciousness? How then one knows about that object?


Where is that clock which you might have created in one of your dreams? Where is the watch, which you were wearing in your last incarnation? And why do not you check the time using the clock (of your day time consciouness) during your dream and your shushupti? Where was this time keeper clock before its invention? However all through, the TIME was there. But the time is there constantly in the time-keeper -- the infinite consciousness called Turiya, which itself is time less.

So, one who is capable of joining one's mind (through absolute thoughtlessness) with Turiya goes beyond TIME -- what to talk of your clock? Such a Yogi, without volition and without being a yogi (being Turiya itself since there is no second), can manifest a clock that has day as night and night as day. he he.

Lord has said: What is day for the yogis is night for the ignorant.


Om Namah Shivayya



To avoid unnecessary confusion, I stress right here that I understand that this is not intended for mass consumption or as a prescription. It will be useful however, if even one person begins recognising the subtle and eternal truths enshrined in Vedas.

Om Namah Shivayya

Let us leave your irrelevant answers aside - as you have simply escaped direct questions.

Is ignorance svarUpa or dharma of Brahman? Or apart from Brahman? And who is in ignorance? If you can answer them, then we can examine your views more deeply.

[Sudarshan]

All right, we have many religions, many philosophies, many confusing terminologies, many Gods, many teachers, many scriptures, many obstacles, many false traps,....how does a person get out of this and be practical? Dhyana, Bhakti, Saranagati, Karma, Punya, Papa so forth....which one?

upanashidAmAvartham oorUkalE~niBhaddham ! - Madhusudhana Saraswathy

Behold ! the will-o-the-wisp that wise Upanishad even fails to grasp,
I lie trapped and helpless,
All bound head to foot
To a plain mortar in Yasoda's kitchen,
With sheer, simple and stark Love !
Kanna, my Lord, where are you?

[atanu]

Let us leave your irrelevant answers aside - as you have simply escaped direct questions.

Is ignorance svarUpa or dharma of Brahman? Or apart from Brahman? And who is in ignorance? If you can answer them, then we can examine your views more deeply.

Good that you found the answers to the clock paradox irrelevant. That takes away a load since i do not need to continue. Thanks.


Regarding,Brahma Jigyasa: Suppose you dream that you are taking me to Moon. You wake up and ask me, "I dreamt so and so. Atanu, did you also have some such dream or know in some other way that I was taking you to Moon?" What significance will you attach to such an inquiry?

Try to understand the analogy. How do I know, what is happenning in your plane of consciousness? Whatever is concieved by the consciousness to be true is immediately true as the phenomena. That is the power. That is why Dvaita, VA, and Advaita all are true. But none of these are true as well. The true is the one who has the concept and not the concept itself.

I say that Brahman is consciousness. If one believes that ignorance exists that is Brahman only, since it is consciousness that knows it and it is consciousness that makes it known. If you believe that ignorance does not exist then again it is awareness and Brahman.

Why don't you find out your Svarupa first? Or ask Brahman directly whether He is ignorant? Whether ignorance is separate from Brahman? Can anything be separate from Brahman? How that can exist then? How that will be perceived then?


But Atma-Brahman is Paramparaastad -- transcendental. It remains unchanged. And it is advaita.


Dear Sudarshan, I have promised not to spend time online but to spend more time on meditation and professional duties. So, please excuse me. Consider me defeated, if that would give you some happiness.


Best wishes.

[nirotu]

Does Christianity ever talk about realizing God in a lifetime? I am afraid it is a big no.

Dear Truthseeker:
While you may not agree, this is how a Christian views. Christianity does not place any emphasis on Reincarnation and therefore, the lifetime you have in this planet earth is considered an only opportunity to realize God.


Let me play Pascalian argument with you. Pascal once said, “ I would rather die believing God and then realize there was no God instead of living without believing the existence of God and then realize there is God”. The consequences for the latter are immense and there was nothing to loose from first supposition.


Now, if a Christian and a Hindu die today and it turns out that Christian was wrong and Hindu was right all along, at least Christian will have another chance to correct it by reincarnating. On the other hand, if Christian belief was correct and Hindu was wrong all the time, there is no recourse for the Hindu as there is no reincarnation. What is a safer bet for you? (Please, don’t be too analytical and badger me on this, just my humor!)

But you have stepped into one of the cars destined to carry you to a specific destination. All Hindus have stepped into similar or different cars and all of them hold the hand of grace. Your car will take you to Yama Loka or Brahma Loka depending on the driver's(you) performance. You are always missing the point. You cannot pretend to follow different religions, and claim that all of them take to the goal of other religions. The goals are reconciled only in Advaita, where these different cars transport you to different destinations within the phenomenal world. It is quite true that there are many heavens and even many states of moksha, and the goal of every religion is not the final one. Christianity is talking of just one of them. If a religion offers "easy tickets" it is more than likely to lead to a detination of non eternity.

I cannot make any clearer than what has already been said earlier. Yes, the car can take me anywhere of my choosing. If my performance is good, I am pretty sure I will reach desired destination. The good outcome of my performance required me to turn to good in the first place. That initial turn you seem to not understand at all. Forget where you are going, it is getting into the car in itself tells me if I ever will travel. You seem to give me sermon after sermon about following road signs without even realizing if you are in the car or not.

If you do not beleive in the law of Karma, then we have very little to argue from the point of practical religion, because we are already in different cars, with different operating mechanisms.

I guess, you are right! There is nothing common to talk about as I am not subscribing to your view. I hope we will have something common in future!

Moksha is impossible without the meditations at some point you have widely criticized so far. You can optionally stay out of it for now -- until such times come.

BTW, I never criticized paths that you allude to. I am only stating the precondition for this to take place in one’s life. Please, do not misunderstand me.

Some traditions like Srivaishnavism recgonize that God can remove the Karma, and people like Sudarshan agreed with you because of that.( or perhaps to flatter you!)

You are wrong! Do not insult Sudarshan’s intelligence. Sudarshan and I have disagreed on almost all occasions but when he sees truth, he does not hesitate to admit it. This happened once in our previous forum exchange where he agreed with my point on “Namarupa Siddhanta” of Ramanuja. He may appear abrasive at times, but he is brutally honest in what he believes in and at the same time does not hesitate to agree with others if he sees truth in the statement regardless of who says.

The problem with you or Atanu is that you both are very intelligent but have formed an intellectual crust around you that does not allow any other truth, other than your “advaitan” belief, to enter in.

However, this is not a classical Hindu view, and most Hindu traditions reject the direct role of God in this process of removing Karma. The Karma has been acquired by you out of your own freewill and it is quite inappropriate for God to step in for you - that would be injustice done to another soul.

I am sorry I have difficulty with such a justice from God. If God cannot step in then what is the meaning of compassion? If I see a suffering soul, am I to ignore him and leave it to him and his fate to workout his own karma? What kind of compassion is that when I help someone who is suffering and I am considered to be interfering with his karma. By the way, would I be accruing more bad karma if I interfered to help others in their loss, suffering and pain?

I am sorry that the very meaning of compassion is misunderstood because of karma theory. Compassion is not merely feeling sorry and be going on your way but actually doing something about it. Compassion does not stand idle and watch a blind man walk by the edge of a hill and feel sorry but actually lends a hand to help him.

Let us say you have stolen lots of money from another in a past birth. Could God forgive this offence just because you believed in the grace of God? No, that is illogical and is an act of injustice. True justice requires that God be impartial to everybody. A person called Jesus dying for man's sins would be a laughable concept in Hindu Dharma unless this is a metaphor.

A week ago there was a shooting that took place in an elementary classroom in a small “Amish” town. These Amish people who live there are one of the most faithful people I have ever known. When a deranged man shot 6 kids at point-blank range, a reporter asked a parent of a victim, “what goes through your mind ?”. His answer was, “God has strengthened our faith even more by bringing us more closer to God through this event. Please, pray for us and the family of gunman too”. That is the true meaning of forgiveness! It is not illogical but difficult for a feeble mind to comprehend.

It was the same way with Jesus Christ when he forgave sinners. Not many could comprehend the compassion Jesus displayed on the cross.

This understanding is what takes us beyond “bookish” understanding of grace and compassion etc, People are so bogged down with bookish concept of Dharma, while I see daily in my life such forgiveness displayed that no bookish knowledge can explain. These Amish people, although, live in a most westernized society, they shun from material world as much as possible. Transportation is strictly by horse buggy, no TV, no computers, no hospitals, no modern stores, no library, no books. The education is merely to be able to read the Bible. Yet, how come they know the meaning of forgiveness better than all of us?

As you can see, Bhakti or devotion has the unique ability to keep your mind forcussed on God and prevent you from acquiring new tendencies. It will lead to salvation when the Karmic seeds have burnt out. Karma Yoga also does a similar thing. Both these lead to reduction of such sancita Karma which is called purified chitta. When such state has been attained, it is assumed that either a (realized) guru or God direct will instruct you into the secrets of Jnana Yoga which will enable you to obtain Jnana, which alone has the power of burning the seeds of Karma, and win you liberation. You cannot choose to follow Jnana Yoga unless your prArabdha dictates that, and such people will instinctively know their ways.

That’s great! I see! How practical is it to someone who’s daily grind includes chores just to survive in this world.

I am afraid the Arjuna episode is always misinterpreted to show how easy it is to obtain a grand vision of the Lord? Do you think this was the first time in Mahabaratha that Arjuna had such a vision? Read the vana parva and you will find Arjuna performing intense tapasya to obtain the vision of Lord Shiva. Arjuna then enjoys a long stay in heaven and all that. You think such experiences are all possible for a warrior?

Again, it is my view that I am presenting here. You see, in describing Arjuna’s qualification you seem to have by passed what I have been saying all along. Let me turn it around this way: You are right about Arjuna being champion in his Tapasya and Bhakti etc,. Look at it from God’s point of view now. In spite of Arjuna’s enormous resume, Krishna still required him to bow before Him in humility. It does not matter how high up in spiritual chain one is, as Christ says, “God exalts those who are humble and resists those who are proud”. There is no distinction between you or me when it comes to accruing grace from God. That initial humbling is required for everyone.

Likewise, Ravana also epitomizes Bhakti but devoid of Grace. As I said earlier to you, for Arjuna the goal was accessible because of grace and for Ravana the destiny was destruction eventhough both had impressive resume! Answer me now why Duryodhana could not have that grace that Arjuna had?

Again, it is that turn to surrender in Arjuna what made him attract grace. It is that ego in Ravana what pushed him away from the grace of Rama. I have great difficulty in accepting idea predestination. I cannot accept your idea that Arjuna was destined for that. It was Arjuna’s choice that granted him that status. That subtle turn to grace is what my thesis has been. Not all can do that, not so easily.

Arjuna is a classical Karma Yogi and not an ordinary man to start with. His experiences can be had only by a Yogi, not by any other person. Without sAdhana, no such experiences are possible. Anyone who gets them without effort has evolved to such a stage in a former birth. Arjuna obtained Shiva and Krishna only though intensive meditation which you have overlooked completely. Meditation + Humility with love towards the Lord yielded him such a vision.

"As God talked with Arjuna, so will He talk with you. As He lifted up the spirit and consciousness of Arjuna, so will He uplift you. As he granted Arjuna supreme spiritual vision, so will He confer enlightenment on you." —Paramahansa Yogananda

Whatever you have said regarding the initial part have been accepted by Hindus, however you refuse to move one step ahead.

My point is you have not recognized it but simply taken for granted. It is easy for someone in spiritual journey to say , “grace has always been there for me” and accept that as a fact. That completely contradicts with lives of those who were evil (Hitler, Stalin, mass murderer etc). Because, that initial turn what determines the future course of action for me. It has not been given proper recognition at all in your idea. This is a simple idea that I present, yet you make a mountain out of molehill by giving me thesis after theses about evolving. While they all are essential, which I have not denied, but they all come later. The catalyst for all Bhakti, Jnana, devotion is the initial turn to grace. It’s that simple!! Sudarshan recognized this and you didn’t!


Blessings,

[Znanna]

Belief and God are complete opposites.

One cannot "believe in God"

Belief is the "mind".

The "mind " can not "know" the Context within which it exists,

which is God.

One knows they are "One with God" or they know not.

Those who know they are "One with God " define what it is to be a Christ.




a correction.......it is incorrect for me to say to say "one cannot believe in God"

I should have said there is no purpose served by believing in God.

God is I AM

I AM is the Context of Existence.

Belief, like hope and all other affectations of separation, serve only to re-enforce the illusion that the Mind is something more than a Creative mechanism.

Being Human presents two choices........choose to be one with the mind and its Creation and live the life of a machine........

or choose to know you are one One with I AM and live Life as the Source of your experience.

Victim or Source.......that is the choice

These are quotes from the one I Name my Twin, which seem germane to this discussion.

YMMV




Namaste,
ZN

[TruthSeeker]

Dear nirotu,

While you may not agree, this is how a Christian views. Christianity does not place any emphasis on Reincarnation and therefore, the lifetime you have in this planet earth is considered an only opportunity to realize God.

I could show you dozens of Jesus in India even today - how many are there in
Christianity? Christianity is about attaining heaven after death. But Hindu Dharma is about it while alive.

Let me play Pascalian argument with you. Pascal once said, I would rather die believing God and then realize there was no God instead of living without believing the existence of God and then realize there is God. The consequences for the latter are immense and there was nothing to loose from first supposition.

What is the probability of Christianity being true? Less than 0%. Why would I be bothered. Secondly a God of this kind would be no different from a Satan. Why beleive and worship him at all? If the consequences for not beleiving are dire, when God is playing hide and seek, he must be a monster.

Now, if a Christian and a Hindu die today and it turns out that Christian was wrong and Hindu was right all along, at least Christian will have another chance to correct it by reincarnating. On the other hand, if Christian belief was correct and Hindu was wrong all the time, there is no recourse for the Hindu as there is no reincarnation. What is a safer bet for you? (Please, dont be too analytical and badger me on this, just my humor!)

As above! Why should anyone pay heed to such a God? How is it different from say Hitler ordering people to bow before him? Regarding reincarnation, I as a Hindu have definite proofs of it, than mere theory, which should mean your "threats" dont matter to Hindus at all.

I cannot make any clearer than what has already been said earlier. Yes, the car can take me anywhere of my choosing. If my performance is good, I am pretty sure I will reach desired destination. The good outcome of my performance required me to turn to good in the first place. That initial turn you seem to not understand at all. Forget where you are going, it is getting into the car in itself tells me if I ever will travel. You seem to give me sermon after sermon about following road signs without even realizing if you are in the car or not.

Yes, I am on another car, which is not meant to be in phenomenal existance of any kind. Whether one reaches the destination is another issue. I have my guru and I follow his instructions, and I am in very 'safe' hands, if that is the "initial turn" you have been talking about.

I am sorry I have difficulty with such a justice from God. If God cannot step in then what is the meaning of compassion? If I see a suffering soul, am I to ignore him and leave it to him and his fate to workout his own karma? What kind of compassion is that when I help someone who is suffering and I am considered to be interfering with his karma. By the way, would I be accruing more bad karma if I interfered to help others in their loss, suffering and pain?
I am sorry that the very meaning of compassion is misunderstood because of karma theory. Compassion is not merely feeling sorry and be going on your way but actually doing something about it. Compassion does not stand idle and watch a blind man walk by the edge of a hill and feel sorry but actually lends a hand to help him.

You have a completely different theory. Please tell me why God created you at all if he were compassionate. He could have chosen to create you in heaven and made you happy and himself happy with your love. Is the sin committed by your ancestor Adam a valid reason for punishing others? That original sin is called as the sancita karma by Hindus. Christianity's concept of freewill is totally flawed and will not be taken seriously by Dharma followers.

Since God's motive for creation are not for making people worship or love him( in that case he could have directly created in heaven and secondly it makes God dependent on you, and he has no wants or desires to fulfil), but is more like "you find me amidst the bushes". That is the Hindu view, and hence compassion per se does not have a proper meaning. Surrendering the freewill to the divine will is the only way, and that must ideally include surrender of all levels of ego. In the state of awakening we are not aware of our inner egos( like the intellect), and these are available only in the states of deep meditation, and surrendering them is out of question. The false ego has resulted in you acquiring a lot of Karma that has to be worked out either through undergoing the fruits of the Karma, or through unqiue devotion that taps at the root of Karma. This exceptional devotion I am talking about is not the plain devotion or beleif in God, but some kind of devotion deep enough that God becomes your friend like he did for Arjuna and showed him the universal form. Such visions will close the Karmic cycle for good.

Why is the God you describe as compassionate not preventing natural diasters like earthquakes, volcanoes, floods and all such that affect beleivers and non beleivers alike? How can you ever accept that God is compassionate in the terms you have understood? An all loving God would not have allowed a single soul to be born in the world and suffer here. That is why Advaita says that this creation cannot be real - that is a logical impossibility. It does not tally with a compassionate God at all.

Giving freewill to a soul is a potential recipe for disaster and an all wise God should have known this in advance. Thus he should have remained content with his own infinite bliss. Dualism of any kind ends with God sounding a villain, does not matter how you defend it. It is within the potency of God to stop all evils we see around us, with a mere wish. But nothing of that sort happens - the only logical reason is Karma and God does not interfere at all. So the freewill should also be divine will at play - one cannot deny that at all. If this were not true, then God would be the worse than a Hitler for remaining silent about all the disasters that strike us. Every one keeps hoping that some God would come and establish peace here - just wishful thinking. God's compassion, grace, mercy etc are therefore confined to a select few, and those who deserve it. Infact, everyone is a divine being who has been robbed of that knowledge, and hence God is closer than the closest, but manifestation of God does not happen unless you have become a pure soul ready to accomodate God - devoid of all false egos, pride, jealosy, anger etc.

In short Christianity is very limited in its depth of philosophical knowledge base, and dont shove it over here. Please learn proper christianity from some learned Hindus.

It was the same way with Jesus Christ when he forgave sinners. Not many could comprehend the compassion Jesus displayed on the cross.

No God ever died on a cross and experienced pain - that must be a meek mortal. Please dont expect Hindus to believe in this fable. Jesus crucifixtion is the metaphor that shows "blood sacrifice" is the way to moksha. Blood sacrifice is technically used within Yogic jargon to represent Dharma.( I nelieved I mentioned this earlier and you have missed all this in your enthusiasm and hoped to get away with a myth again)

This understanding is what takes us beyond bookish understanding of grace and compassion etc, People are so bogged down with bookish concept of Dharma, while I see daily in my life such forgiveness displayed that no bookish knowledge can explain. These Amish people, although, live in a most westernized society, they shun from material world as much as possible. Transportation is strictly by horse buggy, no TV, no computers, no hospitals, no modern stores, no library, no books. The education is merely to be able to read the Bible. Yet, how come they know the meaning of forgiveness better than all of us?

They were possibly sAdhus in the himalayas in their previous lives - that is why. Books cannot teach you more that your vAsanAs allow you to absorb. No book can teach you Hinduism because your Karma is headed in another direction and as a Hindu it is none of another Hindu's business to interfere with it.

Again, it is my view that I am presenting here. You see, in describing Arjunas qualification you seem to have by passed what I have been saying all along. Let me turn it around this way: You are right about Arjuna being champion in his Tapasya and Bhakti etc,. Look at it from Gods point of view now. In spite of Arjunas enormous resume, Krishna still required him to bow before Him in humility. It does not matter how high up in spiritual chain one is, as Christ says, God exalts those who are humble and resists those who are proud. There is no distinction between you or me when it comes to accruing grace from God. That initial humbling is required for everyone.

The moment I see the hand of grace, I will do exactly as you say. But Lord Krishna is not there to hold to - he remains a fiction isn't it? He is to be known through a combination of many factors, Bhakti being the main means. Humbleness comes on own accord with increasing bhakti and jnana. Bhakti is Jnana and Jnana is Bhakti. Mere humbling is not sufficient, but there should be that true unflinching devotion Arjuna had.

Are you aware that even after all that, Arjuna did not get moksha? That was because Arjuna's Yoga was still incomplete. That should possibly put to rest your claims. For all such accomplishment, Arjuna just attained high heaven, and was later reborn and then was liberated. Yoga Vasista says that Arjuna was able to become a "Brahmavid Vara"( Asamsakti) through the practice of Yoga and the vision of the Krishna , which is the first stage of jIvanmukti. There are two more stages beyond these and called as "Brahmavid VarIyan" ( padArta bAvana) and Brahmavid Varishta (Turiya). That should give you an idea of how there is a considerable way to go even beyond just turning humble. Such humility should be combined with Jnana and Bhakti until absolute ideniity with Krishna is attained. Just being an Arjuna who gets afraid of seeing the form of Krishna(due to dualty) represents only a certain level of attainment.

If people like Arjuna, who after obtaining a vision of the Lord are still reborn, what does it speak for others? It shows that liberation is not possible in dualty. Arjuna must transcend the state where he "sees" Krishna externally. He must identify himself with Krishna at some point. That explains why Arjuna was not liberated even after such wonderful achievements most people can only dream of.

Likewise, Ravana also epitomizes Bhakti but devoid of Grace. As I said earlier to you, for Arjuna the goal was accessible because of grace and for Ravana the destiny was destruction eventhough both had impressive resume! Answer me now why Duryodhana could not have that grace that Arjuna had?

I have explained to you who Ravana is. And you refuse to listen? Ravana is much much bigger than many saints in the land. He is the most purified form of individual existance one could attain to, separate from the Lord. He gets killed by Turiya represented by Lord Rama.

Duryodhana, as I understand is not the wicked person as you imagine. My understanding of Mahabaratha as handed over through my tradition does not interpret these texts literally and as a political tool to establish the supremacy of various Gods. Duryodana represents an aspect of time called Kali. It is the vAsanas that stand in the way of Yoga, which need to be defeated at Kurukhsetra to obtain heaven. The army of Duryodhana and Pandavas collectively represent all the vAsasas(good and bad) and elements that need to be destroyed before once could practice Jnana Yoga.

Again, you missed out so much even in your literal interpretation. Duryodana went to the same heaven that Arjuna went to, as evident from the last chapter in Mahabaratha, so your claim of Duryodhana not seeking the grace is pointless. Everyone who died at Kuruksetra went to heaven, and it reflects only your incorrect understanding of Duryodhana. Dont take him to be an ordinary mortal on earth. Duryodhana represents one aspect of kAla or Time, which is a manifestation of Saguna Brahman, and is worthy of worship. No wonder he went to heaven and shared a seat along with Arjuna.

Again, it is that turn to surrender in Arjuna what made him attract grace. It is that ego in Ravana what pushed him away from the grace of Rama. I have great difficulty in accepting idea predestination. I cannot accept your idea that Arjuna was destined for that. It was Arjunas choice that granted him that status. That subtle turn to grace is what my thesis has been. Not all can do that, not so easily.

Please take your time to understand more of Dharma before criticizing branches of Dharma for which Christianity has no parallels.

Sudarshan recognized this and you didnt!

So Sudarshan is a mahAtma and I am a durAtma. I cant help laughing at such
comparisons. And please dont create disunity amongst Hindus. Please pray for me to get saved from the Satan your God has set up for me. Anyway, I know Lord Krishna's grace is there to protect me.

[TruthSeeker]

The problem with you or Atanu is that you both are very intelligent but have formed an intellectual crust around you that does not allow any other truth, other than your advaitan belief, to enter in.

And you have formed an emotional crust around you that does not allow any intellectual
activity. No, Advaitins do not impose their beleifs on anyone else. Have you seen any Advaitin on this forum insisting anyone should follow his ways? Such childish behaviour is common with Christianity, Islam and some other sectarian divisions of other religions. Advaitins do not warn of dire consequences if you do not hear their words either. Advaita emphasises Jnana over Karma, in contrast to some other religions that promote Karma over Jnana. Since Karma is a prerequisite for Jnana Yoga, Advaitins start off by practising Karma Yoga only. Strictly there is no difference in the approaches. The approaches seem to contradict each other when suddenly some people start promoting Karma Yoga in a diluted form as a "ticket to moksha" and start abusing Advaitins. Karma Yoga will lead to Jnana Yoga in due course, so Advaitins do not push their idealogies on anyone.

Thats great! I see! How practical is it to someone whos daily grind includes chores just to survive in this world.

For a person whose prArabdha karma allows only grinding daily chores, then he must discharge the chores without complaint - that is his Yoga.

"As God talked with Arjuna, so will He talk with you. As He lifted up the spirit and consciousness of Arjuna, so will He uplift you. As he granted Arjuna supreme spiritual vision, so will He confer enlightenment on you." Paramahansa Yogananda

Weren't you the one who called Paramahamsa Yogananda as fanatasizing the resserruction of his guru? Now you want his testimony? He was a Kriya Yogi himself and this was the advice he gave to his followers. If you are an Arjuna and thwe Lord moves along with you, from that point Christianity is head on - just submit! Prior to that do both submit and also work towards getting the Lord in that position...

[Sudarshan]

You are wrong! Do not insult Sudarshan’s intelligence. Sudarshan and I have disagreed on almost all occasions but when he sees truth, he does not hesitate to admit it. This happened once in our previous forum exchange where he agreed with my point on “Namarupa Siddhanta” of Ramanuja. He may appear abrasive at times, but he is brutally honest in what he believes in and at the same time does not hesitate to agree with others if he sees truth in the statement regardless of who says.

That is fine. Would you mind clarifying why Judas was deserted by Jesus? Why was he not forgiven? If Judas is forgiven, then that begs another question. Why does your God not forgive all, after all if a traitor can be forgiven, then why not all? We have to note that Judas enabled the murder of Jesus and has saved many Christians from sin of forefathers and their own sins - so why was he labelled as wicked?

Sri Ramanuja would never have allowed his disciples to go astray like that. He would have used his divine powers to clear the defects of the mind that lead ones disciples away towards doom. This is one incident where Jesus has disappointed.

[atanu]

The problem with you or Atanu is that you both are very intelligent but have formed an intellectual crust around you that does not allow any other truth, other than your advaitan belief, to enter in.

The main problem, however, is that you see problem everywhere, in others ---- but never inside.


Have a nice time, problem hunting.


But realise that Atanu is nowhere but in your own consciousness. If you think that Atanu or TS have problems then the problem lies within. Within You.


Bye Bye. Have a real nice time someday Nirotu.


Om Namah Shivayya