Learning from the past...

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté
Eastern Mind writes¹,

SS: In my opinion, a misogynist will surely be reborn as a woman. I mean, do we believe in karma and reincarnation, or not? Is it a reality, or just some intellectual concept that may or may not be true?

I have been pondering this for a few days now. What have been my thoughts? If one is a misogynist in this life, then in a future life the person will be female? If one is a thief then , in the next life he is the one robbed of his/her wealth? Of if one is a murderer (today) then in the next life this person becomes the murdered?

We are dealing with opposites or the retribution of one that is the offender changing places with the offended.
Many will say to every action there is a reaction. Some also may say there is an equal and opposite reaction ( this is more from the laws of physics). Do we think then that this is the model of karma and its various types ¹ ?

My thoughts are the following. If the offender in this life becomes the offended (in the next life), where is the lesson learned, the reflection of actions that should not have been done if the person does not recall doing them? If in this life, the offender is the offended then there is the possibility ( me thinks) for reflection and growth if in fact that ignorance is not abundantly thick.

One more example: Take a dog. The dog has an accident on your carpet in your home ( this may be foreign to many the live in India, as far-and-few allow dogs into the home). Now wait six months, and then punish the dog. What will be the good , or lesson that comes from this punishment 6 months later?

Like that - where is the benefit of the lesson in a future life if one cannot recall actions that may have stimulated a result without any audit trial to the source of the action? Are we then thinking about the 'model' correctly ? Are we missing something?

Kṛṣṇa said¹ 'unfathomable is the course of action'. We at times are bewildered at the events of life; What was the audit trail back to this action? We hear often 'Why did it happen to me ?'

praṇām

words and references

• From EM's post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4342&page=3
• HDF post on karma and influences : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3656&highlight=karma
• Kṛṣṇa - Bhāgavad gītā - Chapter 4, 17th śloka - gahanā karmaṇaḥ gathiḥ -
  • gahana गहन - inexplicable , hard to be understood ~ unfathomable
  • karmaṇaḥ or karman कर्मन्- act , action , performance
  • gati गति- path , way , course , method

[Eastern Mind]

Yajvan:

lol

Glad my post made you think. Then the reverse happened. Your post made me think. Now there's quick karma I suppose. My explanation, I see, didn't go far enough.

Yes you are right. The karma of a future life caused by poor action in this life may very well be slowed or even stopped completely.

Lets stick with the same example, although I think the principle is the same for many aspects of life. If the misogynist later sees his mistakes through gained understanding, and then works on earning punya in that regard, such as donating or helping build a woman's shelter, then surely his karma would be lessened. Similarly, he could do penance, such as yatra, or kavadi, or silence. So now I see how it is not destined in such a definite, eye for an eye way. it is far more complicated than that, I see.

However, if the misogynist, or the thief remained that way, unrepentant until his death, it may well be a different matter.

Thank you for this knowledge.

Aum namasivaya

[saidevo]

I have also been thinking about the type of retribution bad karma might bring in. While it is easy to see that a person suffering in this life is due to the individual's own actions in the past lives, what puzzles me is that why should some people have acute propensities at all towards evil actions such as murder, torture, rape, robbery of all kinds, etc. and resort to them habitually? It is not logical to say that these people exhausted all their good karma in previous births so they need to start afresh? If that be so, why should they start with bad karma in this life, specially when they should have accumulated a good amount of knowledge about dharma and adharma in their previous lives by virtue of their good karma?

That bad karma extracts retribution 'in kind'--"as you sow, so you reap"--'a coconut seed cannot produce a mango tree'--was part of early Christian philosophy. It seems that somes Hindus believed in this idea: during our boyhood days, our Grandma used to scare us if we killed a butterfly saying that in the next birth "you will be born as the butterfly, the butterfly as you and would torture and kill you just as you did to it today!" Some of us were really scared at such a possibility!

If bad karma has to extract its retribution 'in kind', then a person committing ten murders in this life should necessarily have ten more lives to be murdered in those lives. The same thing would be true of other sinful acts. This sames highly illogical, every which way you look at it.

Thus, it is logical to think, as Yajvan has pointed out, that part of the fruits of good karma is to reduce the balance of bad karma. This is the reason that we find in our PurANAs Indra coming over to bathe in a holy river in Kadambavanam, Madurai, set up a Shiva temple and worship him, to wash away the results of bad karma; SrI RAmA setting up and worship a Shivalingam that has come to be named after him as RAmAlingam at RAmeshvaram to wash away the sin of his killing RAvaNA; and the belief that bathing in a holy river like Ganga would wash away the sins, where there is actute regret on the sinner's part.

If we pit the various kinds of suffering--by physical and mental ailments, being victims of robbery, rape, torture and other kinds of sinful acts incurred--against the sins and crimes committed in the world, IMO, we might find that the suffering is more than the crimes committed and that of the types of suffering, physical and mental ailments rule the roost. This could be the reason that sages like Swami SivAnanda has opined that bad karma manifests primarily in the form of physical and mental ailments. ('Karma and Diseases', http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/downlo...madisease.pdf). Pandit Shriram Sharma Acharya discusses in his book 'The Absolute Law of Karma' the various types of ailments caused by the various types of karmas. (http://www.awgp.org/english/books/lawofkarma.pdf).

Now, what do you think about the question that I mentioned in the first para--about some people having acute propensities towards crimes in their current lives?

My current take on it is that those people should have graduated from their previous births in the animal kingdom into first-time human births in the current live, so they are yet to be exposed to 'satsangh' about good karma.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté saidevo and EM,

Thank you for considering the question and position on karma. I think both of you bring merit to the discussion and allow
us to extend the thinking a bit deeper.
saidevo writes,

Now, what do you think about the question that I mentioned in the first para--about some people having acute propensities towards crimes in their current lives?

My current take on it is that those people should have graduated from their previous births in the animal kingdom into first-time human births in the current live, so they are yet to be exposed to 'satsangh' about good karma

This is a most excellent question as I see it. What makes me scratch my head is why is the 'gravity' to act pulling in the negitive direction?
Could it not just as easily pulled in a sattvic¹ direction? Why so? The SELF by its nature is pure, clear, without blemish. Does it not bring some influence?

Yet saidevo points to the pickle of some who are constantly on the 'wrong side of the tracks' and the tendency to promote evil and mayheim.
I have known some of these people and I am perplexed. If given the option they would opt for greed, misgiving, and in many ( most) instances at the demise or expense of others.

Perhaps our discussion on this will bring some clarity to this subject. One may say, 'In the grand scheme of things these people play their part ' yet it is to my chagrin that my comprehension of this matter is highly inadequate.

praṇām

words
sattva सत्त्व - the quality of purity or goodness. Considering sāṃkhya, it is the highest of the three guṇas or constituents of prakṛti; it renders a person true , honest , etc.

[Eastern Mind]

Good question, Saidevo. I too have pondered this. Why the propensity to obvious unkind acts?

As a teacher, there were many days that I felt perplexed at this as some child would come in having been bullied by another. Or some kids would just get it while others wouldn't.

I remember one child in particular, who simply could not understand the sportsmanship concept of equal playing time. I tried so many times to alter his thinking to no avail. Later as he moved on, I learned that he had had a brain tumor and had passed away. This lead to the conclusion that he couldn't learn this concept because of a brain malfunction. So the point I took away is that it is complicated, this thing called karma. I also have been taught that karma can strike via odd routes, maybe taking a circular path through several people before coming back. It is not necessarily in the same direct eye for an eye. There are many extenuating circumstances. Think of a soccer ball being kicked around.

But my original point that Yajvan quoted was more the second part: Look, do we believe in karma or not? If so, then stop your whining. (I've witnessed Hindus who claim to understand karma, but then when viewed by me from a distance, they obviously didn't.)

Prayer to dieties, and getting the grace of Gods and/or Guru can also lessen the impact. Subramuniyaswami's analogy was that if you have the karma to get a broken leg, you might see a movie where a guy breaks his leg, and 'feel' the pain through that for 5 minutes (in a strong reaction that you don't understand) rather than through 24 hours , and then 3 moinths or recuperation.

Now, the other question: My current take is that they are just young souls, incapable of understanding at this point in evolution. Again though in reality its more complicated than that. In the case of the schoolyard bully, often you can see a direct correlation between child and parent. Young souls attract young souls. Anava plays a definite role here.

Aum Namasivaya

[atanu]

But my original point that Yajvan quoted was more the second part: Look, do we believe in karma or not? If so, then stop your whining. (I've witnessed Hindus who claim to understand karma, but then when viewed by me from a distance, they obviously didn't.)

Namaste All,

That is obviously the best and IMO, the truth for most of us to lesser or greater extent. In a discussion (through pm), ZN said:"---adversity makes one forget and whine endlessly". But adversity only opens the viveka towards cause-effect chain.

Those who can desist from whining while facing acute or chronic adversities are the real sages, who have truly surrendered.

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Here is one way of looking at this matter… yet it does not contribute to why some gravitate towards mischief and negitivity, but may help with a POV of what gets acted upon ( karma) and what is free from the reins of karma.

Actions are the virtue and ownership of the 3 guna-s i.e. it is the 3 guṇa-s or constituents of prakṛti that act. One's true nature, Divine nature, the SELF (ātman), is uninvolved in actions. Some may call this sākṣin¹ or the witnessing part of consciousness. No matter it is the guna-s that act within the guna-s.

When we are attached to the body - all is felt by us. The good , the not so good, etc. Hence karma acts on us ( body, mind, etc) but cannot act on the ātman as the ātma is outside this field of the guṇa-s . This is why Śrī Nisargadatta Mahraj says the following:
Q: The universe does not seem a happy place to live in. Why is there so much suffering?
Śrī Nisargadatta Mahraj:
Pain is physical, suffering is mental. Beyond the mind there is no suffering. Pain is merely a signal that the body is in danger and requires attention. Similarly, suffering warns us that the structure of memories and habit, which we call the person (vyakti&#185 is threatened by loss or change. Pain is essential for the survival of the body, but none compels you to suffer. Suffering is due entirely to clinging and resisting. It is a sign of our unwillingness to move on, to flow with life.

The Dali Lama says it this way, Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

Why is it inevitable? - If we have a body it is subject to the elements, to falling, to bumps and bruises. It ( body and components) lives in a bounded world of the laws of physics. The ātman is outside of these constucts, but in ingorance, it appears the SELF is the 'self' and attached to the bumps and bruises the world thows at it.

So one asks - why does the sum total of one's actions move an individual to bad behaviors ( evil ones) that bring distraught to the family of man? And why does one person get the 'go ahead' to be this agent of grief?
This I cannot comprehend and appreciate , yet my genuine hunger to understand this grows as I watch people and try to learn.

praṇām

words

• sākṣin साक्षिन् - seeing with the eyes , observing , witnessing ; an eye-witness , witness ; Hence Consciousness as an
  observer.
• vyakti व्यक्ति - visible appearance or manifestation , becoming evident or known or public

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste, Vannakkam,

I wouldn't want to underestimate the powers of the base instincts of lust, power, fear, anger, and such. Ordinary base people who live in chakras below the muladhara will do crazy things. "I'd walk a mile for a camel".

Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté


It seems to me ( therefore), there is only one way out of this pickle; become the sakṛdāgāmin¹ सकृदागामिन् - returning only once again.


praṇām

words
From sakṛd (or sakṛt) + āgamain

• • sakṛt - once, immediately
  • āgamain - coming or approaching

[vcindiana]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~



Śrī Nisargadatta Mahraj says the following:
Q: The universe does not seem a happy place to live in. Why is there so much suffering?
Śrī Nisargadatta Mahraj:
Pain is physical, suffering is mental. Beyond the mind there is no suffering. Pain is merely a signal that the body is in danger and requires attention. Similarly, suffering warns us that the structure of memories and habit, which we call the person (vyakti�) is threatened by loss or change. Pain is essential for the survival of the body, but none compels you to suffer. Suffering is due entirely to clinging and resisting. It is a sign of our unwillingness to move on, to flow with life.

Dear Yajavan:
With respect I would like to expand on this.

Pain and suffering cannot clearly be separated and the words mostly have similar meaning. Pain is usually thought of physical and suffering is thought of mental or emotional pain. Suffering can also be a mental reaction to physical or emotional pain. Whatever it is, these words usually go together.
I agree physical pain is necessary for our survival. Disease leprosy is the best example as we observe the people inflicted with this disease become disfigured as they lack pain sensation and become very vulnerable for the harsh environment. It is relatively easy to treat physical pain with medications and others.

Maharaj says suffering is due to clinging and resisting, sign of our unwillingness to move on. That can be true but for most ordinary people including me this would be a very difficult and become philosophical with abstract thoughts. I commend Maharaj to find life like that, but I cannot.

I see there is power in suffering as it begs �human� beings to experience sympathy, compassion understanding and to relate to the needy. It awakens human spirit and heart. It is God in human who get moved by the saddest of the human experiences. The ability to be helpful, compassionate, and sympathetic and to relate to the needy is not a sign of weakness and in fact it is a sign of strength and not to be afraid of getting involved. Pain humbles us and helps in overcoming our egotism. Tragedy makes us realize we are not self-sufficient. Becoming spiritual is not an escape mechanism but it is to embrace the mystery of pain and suffering.

Love..............VC