Principles I have found...

[vcindiana]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


Just so there is no confusion - 'but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu)' clearly points that the individual cannot control the outcome. You do not have a choice on the level of success or failure that may result from that action that is initiated.


The remaining words tell us say in general live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction.

Where is my issue? VC offers the following:
This is not the intent of Kṛṣṇa's words.

praṇām

Dear Yaj: I do respect your interpretation. You do seem to be knowledgeable. That is very good. What is the difference between some one being not entitled and some one not having a choice on a level of success or failure? What I see is in an entitlement I do have a choice and I can control the outcome. Love.... VC

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté VC,

Dear Yaj: I do respect your interpretation. You do seem to be knowledgeable. That is very good. What is the difference between some one being not entitled and some one not having a choice on a level of success or failure? What I see is in an entitlement I do have a choice and I can control the outcome. Love.... VC

First let me say thank you for asking. And also I take no ownership of the interpretation. This comes via my teachings and the lineage (paramparā) and what has been taught.

Let me see if I can explain the differences in words and examples.

you offer the following:

You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.

Everything on this earth is born of an action. Every thing we do.
Let me offer a simple example. You stand up and you walk from point A to point B. That is an action and you arrive at point B. You have just achieved the fruit of your action. You open your eyes ( an action) and you perceive the world ( the fruit of your action). If you perform an action there is a re-action to it. Since you had an intention to do something, you then by the mechanics of this Universe get the reaction to it. That is the fruit. Actions you choose comes with reactions or results, it's the fruit.
What you cannot choose ( says Kṛṣṇa) is the quality of your result. We have talked of this before and do not have a better example then this - baseball.
My intent, my choice my ādhikāra (claim , right , privilege, control) of actions karmaṇi, to hit the ball is mine. Yet I do not get to choose the level of results that will occur. This has been my point all along and it makes all the difference in the world.

I wish, and want and desire to hit a home run - I have this as a claim or privilege , to choose this as an action. Yet I cannot control the outcome. I may strike out ( the pitcher has desires too, no?), I may only get a single. I may hit a bird in the air that flies by and not even get on base . This is the whole point. You ARE entitled to select an action and to enjoy its fruits. Yet you cannot select the success/quality of the fruit that may come to you - this is His message.


Why does this make logical sense? We live in a world of action and reaction. Not being entitled to the result of an action suggest you should not digest your food - its an action. Do not walk ( its an action) or do not have a family, build a home, work, pray... these are actions.

Of what sense does it make for the world to be designed as such that you are offered 'free will' which is a fraction of His free will , then told you are not entitled to the fruit of the action you chose?


The issue is ( and will remain so) that being tied/bound/crave to the result keeps one in ignorance. Live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction is the message - which is moha, ignorance.

So, between verse 47 and 48 there should be a 47A verse, where Arjuna could of asked ' Kṛṣṇa how then do you expect me to do this?
how do I live not for the fruit and yet not be bound to inaction?'

Then Kṛṣṇa would say ahhh! good question ! - and here is your answer ( 48th verse) : yogasthaḥ kuru karmānī- established (or steadfast) in yoga ( union) perform actions (karma).

If one is steadfast in yoga, i.e. the Union of the Divine, possessed of the SELF - this fulfills the answer to the statement of verse 47.

By thus being established in yoga ( union) then there is a new set of laws that come into being. This now is called skill in action.
The results of your action no longer bind you , your actions are brought to the level of His actions. You have graduated out of being pushed and pulled about by the 3 guna-s ( verse 45 ) and the mind no longer is carried away by the turbulent senses ( verse 60) and an excess of desires.


To read the 47th verse without the surrounding verses, does not allow the Master of Yoga, Kṛṣṇa, to answer the perplexing question of verse 47 and all of Chapter 2. Chaper 2, verse 48 is the key cornerstone of spiritual life here on this good earth as viewed from the path of yoga.
This is to be understood - this is the diamond found in Chapter 2 . It offers the secret to a practical and spiritual life.


praṇām

[bhargavsai]

I have found some principles too, as many of us do. When I reflect upon the topic of Why our country has degenerated to this awful position, the answer I get is that we have lost our Self respect and another reason is:

"What we find funny today will become acceptable tomorrow and a necessity the day after"

I mean, today we laugh at sexual humor, slowly it will become acceptable and after sometime it will become a necessity. Then you will see people using sexual humor everywhere. This is what current Comedy shows are doing, they are portraying women as sexual objects and we many people laugh at that! What a shame!

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté bhargavsai

"What we find funny today will become acceptable tomorrow and a necessity the day after"

May I say this is brillant. There is a saying that parallels this also...
I think it's by SunTzu - He said, what was once your strength, becomes your weakness.

I see this again and again in people, businesses, etc.
That is, as in your statement and in SunTzu's, over time there are conversions. Strong become weak, rich become poor, independence becomes dependent. It's as if the fullness of both sides of the coin has to be experinced and take place.

Just my take - sure like to hear your side of the coin .

praṇām

[chandu_69]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namast�

while I applaud every attempt to translate this verse,

That doesn't look like HIS OWN translation.

and we have reviewed this śloka multiple times, the key take-away is you cannot control the outcome of an action.

Who constitutes the WE apart from you?, Yajvanji.

It appears you have some totally different take on Gita verses compared to Scholars of Various lineages.

May i know what Authority you have in translating the verse contrary to scholars of Various Sampradayas?.

Kṛṣṇa says the following in the Bhāgavad gītā (chapter 2, 47th śloka)
karmaṇi evādhikāras te
mā phalesu kadācana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr
mā te saṅgo'stv akarmaṇi
This says, you certainly (eva) have ādhikāra� (claim , right , privilege, control) of your (te or ti) karmaṇi (of your actions) , but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu) .

Not entitled to Fruits of action.That is plain and simple.From where this control thing came from?

Just so there is no confusion

You surely look like confused.Before we delve in to it further please inform us what authority you have to meddle with a simple sentence in GITA?.

Here are some references to various translations of the verse 2:47

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-02-46.html

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/gita2a.asp

http://acharya.iitm.ac.in/cgi-bin/show_gita_ch.pl?2_4


Here is the word to word breakdown of the verse from http://www.asitis.com/2/47.html

karmany evadhikaras te
ma phalesu kadacana
ma karma-phala-hetur bhur
ma te sango 'stv akarmani

SYNONYMS

karmani--prescribed duties; eva--certainly; adhikarah--right; te--of you; ma--never; phalesu--in the fruits; kadacana--at any time; ma--never; karma-phala--in the result of the work; hetuh--cause; bhuh--become; ma--never; te--of you; sangah--attachment; astu--be there; akarmani--in not doing.

TRANSLATION

You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.

This is an immortal verse from Gita and every translator has an almost unanimous understanding of the verse.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté chandu_69

Who constitutes the WE apart from you?, Yajvanji.
It appears you have some totally different take on Gita verses compared to Scholars of Various lineages.

Not entitled to Fruits of action.That is plain and simple.From where this control thing came from? You surely look like confused.

Thank you for your note.
What constitutes 'we' - a collection of HDF members that have discussed this idea in the past can be found within these strings:
1. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4003&highlight=47th+%26%23347%3Bloka

2. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...highlight=47th

If you wish to see more, you can use the search feature here within HDF. I will assume your arrival to HDF in July of 2009, you may have missed several conversations on this subject and those tangential to the same ideas.

You offer the following:

Not entitled to Fruits of action.That is plain and simple.From where this control thing came from? You surely look like confused

ādhikāra अधिकार is defined as claim , right , privilege, control, In the masculine gender (puṃ-liṅga ) ādhikāra is defined as authority. Note again, this word is attached to the selection of actions, not their outcomes. From where does this definition come? The Sanscrit-English dictionary by Monier Williams to inspect and review each word.

Now I can see you are using ( as is vcindiana) the translation from svāmī prabhupāda who I respect. If this is your choice and view this as the final authority on this subject that is fine.

Now who also may see this verse as different from svāmī prabhupāda that is worth reviewing?

• Abhinavagupata's commentary on the Bhāgavad gītā
• Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī's commentary
• Śrī Jñānadeva's Bhāvārṭa Dīpikā some call Jñāeśvarī ( his commentary the Bhāgavad gītā)
• S.Rādhākṛṣṇan has a different view on this matter but worth a look
• Are there more that I have used? Sure. I think the list above will suffice.

If from your POV I looked confused, I leave that to your opinion. My approach is simple. Read multiple views, research, think, ponder, compare and contrast other translations and also keep close to my heart what I was taught. I think you may have called this 'mettling'. I have a different view on this matter and I will avoid any jalpa that may be ignited.

praṇām

[chandu_69]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté chandu_69

Namste Yajvan.

ādhikāra अधिकार is defined as claim , right , privilege, control, In the masculine gender (puṃ-liṅga ) ādhikāra is defined as authority. Note again, this word is attached to the selection of actions, not their outcomes. From where does this definition come? The Sanscrit-English dictionary by Monier Williams to inspect and review each word.

when adhikara was used for actions and also fruits of action it can only mean RIGHT.
Looking up a dictionary and applying all possible meanings takes one to a blunder land.The words Kadacana and sangah precludes applying other meanings to Adhikara.

Now I can see you are using ( as is vcindiana) the translation from svāmī prabhupāda who I respect. If this is your choice and view this as the final authority on this subject that is fine.

It appears you have deliberately chosen to ignore the translations that i gave links before i reproduced Prabhupada's word by word breakup.Go through those links.

• Abhinavagupata's commentary on the Bhāgavad gītā
• Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī's commentary
• Śrī Jñānadeva's Bhāvārṭa Dīpikā some call Jñāeśvarī ( his commentary the Bhāgavad gītā)
• S.Rādhākṛṣṇan has a different view on this matter but worth a look
• Are there more that I have used? Sure. I think the list above will suffice.

You will have to provide the word by word breakup of the translations you mentioned to substantiate what you wrote.

If from your POV I looked confused, I leave that to your opinion. My approach is simple.

You can have any approach you wish but you cannot provide your own translation unless you can provide word by word breakup.One needs to have an authority to provide a translation.

I have a different view on this matter and I will avoid any jalpa that may be ignited.

As i said give your VIEWS as long as you make it clear it is your view that you are articulating.

Don't provide translations of your own to change the meaning of the verses to suit your views.

You are already did this once in the same thread and you are doing it once again.I sincerely request you to refrain from doing this again.

[chandu_69]

What constitutes 'we' - a collection of HDF members that have discussed this idea in the past can be found within these strings:
1. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...6%23347%3Bloka

2. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...highlight=47th

Why were you avoiding the words Kadacana and sangah? (in the verse 2:47), while displaying your apparently impressive probability skills.

Speculate by all means but don't change the translations.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namast� chandu_69,
I am sure you mean well. Let me comment on just a few items , then for me, I am closing this chapter on this matter ( i.e. being engaged in this dialog).

You mention when adhikara was used for actions and also fruits of action it can only mean RIGHT. Looking up a dictionary and applying all possible meanings takes one to a blunder land.The words Kadacana and sangah precludes applying other meanings to Adhikara

You believe then it can only mean 'right'? Are you certain about that? Giving other definitions gives depth and breath to the meaning, not a narrow view.
Yet I see you only wish to offer one and only one view, yet there are multiple POV's... I will assume this is less complicated for you , and I am okay with that, and respect that. For me, one view is too too narrow.

you mention

Don't provide translations of your own to change the meaning of the verses to suit your views.

I was not aware that HDF has made you the monitor on what can and cannot be posted. I do not recall a vote that was taken . Did I miss this?

you mention

You will have to provide the word by word breakup of the translations you mentioned to substantiate what you wrote

This has been accomplished, but let me be clear on this - I am not looking for your approval, nor subscribe to your rules. If you are waiting for me to comply or recognize the arguments/positions you offer for compliance (or acceptance) as attractive or authoritative you will once again be disappointed.

you mention

It appears you have deliberately chosen to ignore the translations that i gave links before i reproduced Prabhupada's word by word breakup

I have read his work and translations many times. I have read his works starting in 1972. My jyotiṣ teacher's guru was svāmī prabhupāda in which he stayed with him for 6 to 7 years. His (svāmī prabhupāda's) knowledge came to me via my teacher. I respect his work. He has accomplished allot in this life, yet that does not infer I agree with his verbiage at all times. If his work resonates with you , then the universe rejoices.

you mention,

One needs to have an authority to provide a translation.

Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī's commentary on the Bhāgavad gītā ,
Chapter 2 verse 47, page 133:
You have control over action alone, never over its fruits. Live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction.

Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī's master - Svāmī Brahmānanda Sarasvatī, Śaṅkarācārya of Jyotirmath (from 1941-1953) ; Do you wish to know the lineage?

In closing, the conversation on this subject is closed for me, as it is missing the spirit of insight, sharing, probing and a better understanding of the knowledge. Thank you again for collecting your thoughts and offering them to me and to the HDF members.

I return to the original intent of this string... principles.

Roma locuta est - causa finita est

praṇām

[chandu_69]

You believe then it can only mean 'right'? Are you certain about that? Giving other definitions gives depth and breath to the meaning, not a narrow view.

I am certain because Giants like Madhavacharya gave that interpretation and that interpretation held good.

One may wish to expand the depth of their understanding but one cannot tinker with translation unless one displays the scholarship to translate the full sentence.

I was not aware that HDF has made you the monitor on what can and cannot be posted. I do not recall a vote that was taken . Did I miss this?

My words might convey that impression, but i am in noway authorised by HDF.

Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī's commentary on the Bhāgavad gītā ,
Chapter 2 verse 47, page 133:
You have control over action alone, never over its fruits. Live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction.

What u gave was not a commentary but a partial translation which i am objecting to.

i wrote

You will have to provide the word by word breakup of the translations you mentioned to substantiate what you wrote

you replied

This has been accomplished

Not at all.

let me repeat your reference in hdfhttp://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...96&postcount=5)
karmaṇi evādhikāras te
mā phalesu kadācana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr
mā te saṅgo'stv akarmaṇi
This says, you certainly (eva) have ādhikāra� (claim , right , privilege, control) of your (te or ti) karmaṇi� (of your actions) , but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu) .
The remaining words say in general live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction......
.......
......

The POV of that link became a direct quote from Sri krishna in this thread
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...69&postcount=9

Your own words

"Kṛṣṇa says the following in the Bhāgavad gītā (chapter 2, 47th śloka)"