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Thread: Principles I have found...

  1. #71
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    Re: Principles I have found...

    Namaste Gupta ji,

    Quote Originally Posted by kd gupta View Post
    The Q. of Proudhinduji is not so easy…It is not the business of a policeman to kill.His business is to protect.
    Yes, but he may have to kill to protect. If you think that killing is so bad, I am afraid, Lord Krishna's efforts in teaching the whole of Gita has gone waste !

    There is no killing ... no one kills & there is no one who is going to be killed. We have to act as per our "Dharma" & if for "Dharma" I have to kill then ... so be it ! That is the teaching of Gita.

    You know Rishi Dhaumya taught gita to Yudhishter [ kshatriya varna ] in the forest , but there was no War.
    That is the beauty of God's eternal message. It is useful in all walks of life.

    If it is a daily diary example, then think … Many people are declared innocent after being killed.
    That is why there is a necessity to be skilful (Dakhsha) in all your roles. You must take your role seriously.

    You have to catch a simple man to teach the lesson to a criminal.
    ???? this has gone tangent over my head !

    You have to allot the work for lower bidder as per rules, even knowing that criminal will harm the concerned bidder tomorrow .
    Do I "know" or do I fear ? Am I more knowledgeable about threat perception on the life of the bidder than the bidder himself ? I am responsible for my role only & I must understand well that I don't run this world. He who has created this world knows better than me how to take care of his creation.

    I believe in this :

    I must do whatever I can do in a given situation. I should accept my limitations & leave things to God, if I can't. May God give me the power of discrimination to distinguish between the two scenarios.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  2. #72
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    Re: Principles I have found...

    Namaste Gupta ji,

    You must have heard of VyAdh Gita. I think this may throw more light on what our 'duty' is.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #73
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    Re: Principles I have found...

    Namaste All,

    I get the drift of what Shri Gupta is indicating. How many policemen really kill to protect others? I feel (and I am reiterating) that it is easy to cite examples from Gita or scripture this way or that way. I acknowledge fully that a strong and clean Police and Army are required. I also agree that a policeman who kills to protect others surely does not attract karma. Such a police man, if killed in action, will surely be granted a high state in heaven.

    But the truth is that Guna drives all (Lord says so in the 18th Chapter). Lord also teaches: Whether you like or not, Arjuna, you will be compelled to fight. And Lord personally instructs Arjuna how Self is not the slayer and neither it is ever slayed. That was true of Arjuna. But a common man has no idea of that highest state, where Self does not slay or is not slayed, even if it kills. Gupta ji has said that visvarupa dharshana is necessary. I agree fully, since it must be known that Lord has killed those who are to be killed.

    But actually most killings are not examples of selfless duty. They are pre-meditated by crooks. I have seen those who spew fighting spirit in their words, flee first from the scene and innocents are trapped. I have seen politicians of all hues incite tempers and irrationality for their own benefit. Defence deals are business deals and those who moralise also sell largest armament in the world. Despite all the talk of dharma, the illegal armament in India is known to come through Rajasthan. When money starts ruling a country all the high flown ideals are useless. I have seen a close friend migrate to a rabid Muslim country, though he was a staunch believer that Muslims are evil.

    The world will be how it is. Without cleansing oneself, the thoughts of seeing evil outside is self destructive, since guna reaction is the continuance of samsara and all karma that bind us.

    Kauravas were not destroyed because they killed others. But they were destroyed because they were impure egoists. They demeaned a woman. They, through sly techniques, grabbed what was not theirs. They acted impelled by greed, jealousy and revenge. The main reason was greed for possession, and catalysed by a sense of revenge in Duryodhana at being humiliated by Draupadi.

    No doubt that there needs to be a clean and strong Khatriya ruler, guided by wisdom of Brahmana. But for that both inner and outer cleansing is required. Else, a strong military state will just become like Pakistan. Once some people clamoured for full autonomy for Police, Military, and the Secret Services. A wise man queried "Do we want a police state"?

    It is easy to say that "I do duty being in Yoga with Lord". But it is not that simple. I agree with Gupta ji that the above is practical for one who has experienced the Visvarupa. Else, who is not driven by bias, prejudice, greed, lust, etc. (including this writer)?

    --------------------

    The thread is way away from the subject it was meant to be. And that is how the world is. It does not follow the dictate of man's ego.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 18 September 2009 at 11:09 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  4. #74
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    Re: Principles I have found...

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Gupta ji,
    That is why there is a necessity to be skilful (Dakhsha) in all your roles. You must take your role seriously.
    --I believe in this :

    I must do whatever I can do in a given situation. I should accept my limitations & leave things to God, if I can't. May God give me the power of discrimination to distinguish between the two scenarios.

    OM
    Namaste Devotee,

    I agree to both above as excellent. Coming back to the thread "Principles I have found...", I place below my understanding of Gita and the highest message, as per my understanding. It is truly the contentment that is the goal for all. Driven by ego we act selfishly and when Lord retaliates we whimper and cry that the world is not good and that the evil is other than me.

    Lord teaches: Surrender to me and I will take care of all your problems, I will wash away all sins.

    Lord says "The wise are dear to me as my own heart". The wise are the one's who do not come to Lord after being defeated and asking for some or other boons. The wise are instructed "Know the Param Atman seated equally in every heart."

    I think that these are two are the supreme upadeshas of Gita. OMMV.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  5. #75
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    Re: Principles I have found...

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    But the truth is that Guna drives all (Lord says so in the 18th Chapter). Lord also teaches: Whether you like or not, Arjuna, you will be compelled to fight. And Lord personally instructs Arjuna how Self is not the slayer and neither it is ever slayed.
    IMHO this point atanu offers is very important to the overall conversation. If you ( including me) are not possessed of the SELF, then you are possessed and driven by the 3 guna.

    And while we are in this condition, this truth prevails:
    - gahanā karmaṇaḥ gathiḥ¹ - Kṛṣṇa - Bhāgavad gītā - Chapter 4, 17th śloka. Unfathomable is the course of action. That is, the inter twining of the 3 guna-s throughout creation are working. One cannot tell ( with 100% certain) what past action is coming to fruition on family, frieinds, or society.

    So, proudhindu offers a few 'what if's' and we try to field these questions. But it is a bit difficult to answer. Are we answering from someone (any one, not proudhindu specifically) possessed of the 3 guna ? And if so, does rajas predominate ? As rajas will act differently then one of predominately of sattva or of tamas.
    My POV I wished to offer ( in previous posts) to the HDF reader was the insight of one possessed of the SELF and what the wise have offered as knowledge and a new mode of functioning - for me this seems most valuable , but that is me and where all my attention is focused.

    Now that said, if proudhindu can assist us with his question it would be helpful. How to help? are you looking for answers to existing complications or do you wish to know what the field of possibilities are, acting in an enlightened manner? Do you wish to ask what is one's dharma for a particular job function and what the results will be or are you requesting what is the proper course of action, not depending one ones social status or job level?

    I now understand you are not a policeman, but are in fine shape physically. I also know you are not 'worried' for your family's well being but you are 'concerned'.
    These things are what others contend with , within their lives as you would expect. At some point the concern is more concentrated then other times. I recently had a 'safe keeping' concern and acted on it. It was not a threatening environment yet I acted and chose a new course of action. My only.

    So the question for me is simple - are you ( proudhindu) looking for a spiritual answer or insight or something other? I would hope both spiritual and practical can be offered - I find that to be wisdom.

    praṇām

    words
    • gahana गहन - inexplicable , hard to be understood ~ unfathomable
    • karmaṇaḥ or karman कर्मन्- act , action , performance
    • gati गति- path , way , course , method
    Last edited by yajvan; 18 September 2009 at 02:22 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #76
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    Re: Principles I have found...

    Pranaam,

    I would like to expand on a crucial remark made by devotee ji in post 67.

    Again the roles of a SamnyAsi & a house-holder are not same here. SanyAsi must not do anything for acquiring wealth ... that is not his dharma. However, the householder must earn not only for the family but also for those in society who cannot earn (that includes SamnyAsi).

    The way i see it The role of a saint, the jnana yogi, if i call him that way, should be advising people based on their Abilities(Gunas?).

    FOR EXAMPLE

    The sattvic teachings of a saint should be directed to make the Warriors(soldiers, policeman etc) behave more responsibly and more humanely.

    It is not for the saint to make the warriors(with Rajasic Gunas) give up their fighting abilities by teaching MITHYAVADA or PALAYANAVADA(ESCAPISM).

    For the hard working labourer the sattvic teachings of a saint should enable him to be a better worker, a better son, a better husband and a better Father.


    I find nothing uplifting in hearing a well fed and well looked after swamiji telling his hardworking devotees that the world is an illusion and they should just forget about their problems.
    Last edited by proudhindu; 18 September 2009 at 11:32 PM.

  7. #77

    Re: Principles I have found...

    Thank you Atanuji and HeySo beautiful quote, PHji

    My dear friend Devoteeji, explain pl.

    It is not for the saint to make the warriors renounce their Dharma by teaching MITHYAVADA or PALAYANAVADA(ESCAPISM).

    Suppose I am an executive, in the light of above saying, my three points early raised, you know I have to reach the site before god reaches.

  8. #78
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    Re: Principles I have found...

    Namaste Gupta ji,

    My dear friend Devoteeji, explain pl
    It is not for the saint to make the warriors renounce their Dharma by teaching MITHYAVADA or PALAYANAVADA(ESCAPISM)
    I think you have wrongly addressed this to me. This has been quoted by PH & not me, so he is in a better position to explain this.

    If you ask my opinion on this : the Saint can decide in different ways depending upon situation. If he sees that war is no good & he is capable of stopping it, he may try to stop it ( Lord Krishna tries his best to stop the war of MahAbhArata) . If he sees that the war is essential for a better cause, he may ask them to fight (e.g. ChANkya) & may actively participate in it. Or he may decide nothing to do .... war is no business of a saint ... let God decide the best course of action.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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