This made me sick!

[devotee]

Dear Star,

Please ask those people :

India had a prosperous well managed social structure even during the reign of Chandragupta Maurya in 350 BC. Its empire was many times bigger than any country in the world at that time. What was Europe at that time ?

This India was so prosperous & important to the Europeans for their own prosperity that there was intense rivalry among them to reach India by sea-route. Even the orders in Papal Bull was disobeyed for that (by the British).

How come the same India become so poor ?

Was it because of religion ? I am afraid, Yes. Because our religion taught non-violence. Because our religion taught that our guests are God. Because we strongly believed in a fair war without cheating & use of treachery.

We invested heavily in our spiritual pursuit than invention of war machines. We strongly believed, because of teachings in our religion that this world is a temporary place for all of us & the entire earth is a family (Vasudhaiva kutumkam).

======================

Please read Indian history & know how those who came as guests & trade partners cheated & looted our country mercilessly for centuries. They not only looted this country but destroyed all economic structure in India so that India became a raw-material supplier & the finished good brought back to India & sold at exorbitant rates.

People who laugh at India's poverty, actually, should be ashamed of inhuman actions of their forefathers who were basically looters & responsible for the present miserable state of this country.

OM

[mukunda20]

Namaste Star and everyone,
one of my favourite quotes from Bertrand Russell is
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
so whenever you are in doubt of anything, do ask for proof and proper reference.
This is what is missing from the whole powerpoint. anyone can make up tall claims and convincing ones also. but proper back up is required. my refutes are given below for those tall claims.(even though this is not required)
"This country has 1,1 billion inhabitants, 92% of which are considered poor or very poor by the United Nations."
where is the proof? any particular article stating that number(92%).the economy of India is thoroughly stated in this article. economy of a country can never improve when 92% of its people are poor or very poor. the report of World Economic forum is below
http://www.weforum.org/en/events/Arc...mmit/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India

"The streets are filled with rubbish, and there's no hygiene whatsoever in their cooking of food."
this is contradicting the first claim. it requires only common sense to understand that a population of 1.1 billion, if there is no hygene whatsoever, then diseases can spread like rapid fire and cause huge life loss(which would make the population less day by day). but in the chart in the link below only shows a positive growth rate in the past 50 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:India-demography.png
"Animals walk and excrete their waste anywhere, even outside people's houses, because many of them are considered gods, like cows."
the first part is true, we do have a lot of animals in India.for the second part, even today in many parts of India(rural mostly) every day the house front is washed with water and cow dung is spread like paint over the floor. the reason being, cow dung acts as a natural insecticide and pesticide. i.e it prevents insects from entering the house where most of the crops are kept as storage.this is just one of the reasons. (the more advanced version is the insecticide that is obtained nowadays through spray cans throughout the world).

"Beyond their sumptous monuments, lies the misery caused by the caste system supported by their treacherous, morbid, hypnotising religion."
how on earth is monuments connected to caste system. this only shows two things.the author is doing.1: being envious of the rich heritage. 2: trying to do propaganda of his\her religion by showcasing the ill effects of the Indian society. moreover the shallowness of the author gets reflected by the funny words that are used here. for more information about the caste system, please refer to my answer in this topic
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...1263#post31263

"The real scenes for 90% of Indians will never be show on this TV show, as their aim is to glamourise the Indian "gods", which have led the country to be one of the most miserable, unhygienic, polytheist countries of the world."
no points to guess what the author is trying to stress. if India was so miserable as the author stated, why on earth would India's name be on the news about some thing or the other(regarding progress, development etc). it should have been in the news for all the wrong reasons. the real fact about Sanathana Dharma is that the search for truth is everyones goal. and throughout its history, people following Sanathana Dharma have never forced their opinions down the throat of others nor have gone for expansion around the world.
more about the Sanathana Dharma is discussed here
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4480
please dont think i am trying to promote my threads, I just am trying to quote references and felt that if someone were to be blamed later, it would gladly be me.

"They believe the Ganges River represents the beginning and end of life, so they'll toss their dead people there. The "gods" rule there. The River is extremely dirty, full of rubbish, waste products and corpses floating by all the time. And people will go and bathe there, drink from there and perform their rituals there, at the margins of that putrefied "god"."
its the ignorance of people which drives them to throw half burnt bodies into the Ganga thinking that the sins will be washed away by this, no point in agruing against that. but credit has to be given where its due." Ganga self-purifying quality leads to oxygen levels 25 times higher than any other river in the world". more given in the article below.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=17134270

"The United Nations have sent huge sums of money for sewage systems around the river to be built, but religious leaders have denied it, they said the river doesn't need it, because the river is already a god. And as it's a "god", everything can be tossed in it, because as a "god" it has the power to cleanse itself without our help."
the author seems to be cashing on the UN for fallacies of his. hope he\she does not get sued by the UN for spreading lies like this.

"As such, people and corpses are side by side in their "sacred" river, where they throw their corpses so that the "god" comes and take them."
I wonder where the author got this information. the world is full of mysteries.

"Their religion and numberless gods are worthless in guiding those people in the way of good sense, equality and hygiene. We must show them the truth."
my only response would be "Truth doesn't need publicity, propaganda nor even conversion".

"When the time comes, will the Indian "gods" and rituals save you? The Bible says in Hebrews 9:27 that Man is destined to die only once, and then face Judgement. Who can save you from the Final Judgement? What can a guru do for you? Is there any hope for you? The Bible says the salary of sin is death...but God's free gift is the eternal life in Jesus Christ, Our lord. He said I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father unless through Me."
I don't like to comment on any other religion, but a doubt ponders in my mind. if everyone were to be judged on the final Judgement day, where would all those who died long before the judgement day be placed until then. in case they were temporarily placed in either heaven or hell, then whats the use of judgement day. this is a circular dependency deadlock. anyway, i don't know anything about other religions, so might as well stay quiet.
please correct me if wrong in any of my refutations.
Best Regards,
mukunda

[nac]

Satyameva Jayate

[RamaRaksha]

Star: Don't get sick, get even!

I do think it is wrong for Hindus to sit around and simply wring their hands while other religions continue to their proselytization activities. I do believe that we should too, after all, if not for Sankaracharya's proselytization efforts, would we be Hindus today?

At one time I happened to pass by 3 muslims, one was black, the other white and the third was Asian like me. I did feel jealous, the face of Hinduism is very brown and this needs to change. It also helps in fighting propaganda and abuse directed at our religion, because we are concentrated in one country, it is easy for our opponents to do so.

We need to talk about Hindu Values, why our values are different and better. For a start talk about the Buddha. Had he been born almost anywhere else, he might have been tortured to death and there would be no Buddhism today! Maybe no Sikhism, Jainism, Zoarashtrism either!

It is not a coincidence that while other parts of the world are limited to one religion each, India has always been a polyglot of hundreds of faiths!

Or how about the fact that we are the only major religion to pray to a female form of God. Other religions have lowered women to a second-class status. God can only be a man. The fact is that these religions are simply regurgitating the views of their day.

The amazing this here is that it Hinduism that is much older! Truly divine inspiration at work here.

[devotee]

Namaste Mukunda,

It was a nice post with valuable information.

India's today's condition can be better gauged with these facts :

1. That today India is one of the major lenders & not a borrower from IMF. This year they have promised to contribute 10 Billion dollars to IMF.

2. India is one of 10 highest foreign exchange reserves holders in the World.

3. I remember a recent case on a World Bank funded project in India wherein World Bank had a share of 10 % from IBRD loan. They indulged in their usual arm-twisting tactics on procedures etc. on procurement. I shall not mention the name of the Executive Agency here but when it became unbearable, the head of that institution said point blank to the regional head of World Bank that they really didn't need their money ... when they could manage 90% of the funds why not balance 10% ! Within a week, special sanction came from their headquarter, Washington ! Everyone know that they are not for charity here or anywhere but for their business.

4. The importance of India is also reflected from the fact that G-20 today has become more relevant & powerful as compared to G-8 alone.

Anyway, we are taught to be modest when things are going good & not become snobbish like the westerners which is reflected in that writing/slides show.

The time cycle goes on in an up & down motion. Those who are up must go down at some point of time & those who are at the bottom would scale the maximum height when the time comes. After all, who had thought that Roman Empire would ever see such a downfall !

OM

[nac]

Star: Don't get sick, get even!
For a start talk about the Buddha. Had he been born almost anywhere else, he might have been tortured to death and there would be no Buddhism today!

Yeah right, like Jesus you mean?

Star: Don't get sick, get even!
Or how about the fact that we are the only major religion to pray to a female form of God. Other religions have lowered women to a second-class status. God can only be a man. The fact is that these religions are simply regurgitating the views of their day.

The amazing this here is that it Hinduism that is much older! Truly divine inspiration at work here.

Does Shinto count? Buddhism and Taoism say that the divine is neither exclusively male nor female. Besides, nearly all old religions have goddesses.

[sunyata07]

I don't like to comment on any other religion, but a doubt ponders in my mind. if everyone were to be judged on the final Judgement day, where would all those who died long before the judgement day be placed until then. in case they were temporarily placed in either heaven or hell, then whats the use of judgement day. this is a circular dependency deadlock. anyway, i don't know anything about other religions, so might as well stay quiet

Namaste Mukunda,

Don't worry, you're not the only one who wonders about this - even Christians wonder about this too. I used to ask that question all the time; it made no sense in my mind to have the "heaven, hell, purgatory" realms for souls who had no chance of making contact with the Abrahamic God or even hear of Jesus Christ. And what of people born long before the time God revealed himself to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Are they doomed to an eternity of fire and suffering for being born in the wrong century or millenia? ((This is the exact reason why I started believing that there must be a way for these people to be reborn and get a "second chance" as it were.))

Great post, by the way! Devotee, too. It's not enough to post up a bunch of statistics, without providing the proper context, subject history and most importantly of all, the actual proof of one's findings! I was always awful at statistics in maths, but I fully appreciated the discipline with presentation of any findings I made in scientific experiments. I don't see a single reference in that slideshow. How are we supposed to know which parts are fact and which are fiction? Did you know that 65% of all statistics are made up? Or was it 90%? In which case I could just as easily make up my own slideshow about the sex abuse and child molestation scandals that the Catholic church are trying to hush up.

I'll always remember that handy quote from Mark Twain: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

OM

[RamaRaksha]

Yeah right, like Jesus you mean?
Does Shinto count? Buddhism and Taoism say that the divine is neither exclusively male nor female. Besides, nearly all old religions have goddesses.

I will answer this question backwards, I didn't want to name the religions, but I guess i was in error on that one. I don't mean to set Hinduism apart from every other religion on earth, certainly there are other religions that share Hindu values.

You do read history, right? At the time christianity was born, there were other religions around, and christianity fought its way to the top. The very same people who revel in the story of the early christians being eaten by the lions had no problem doing the same to people of other faiths at a later time. Mexicans were tortured until they converted to the new faith. Indegenous african religions have been totally wiped out today. Christianity and Islam are like big trees that hog all the light, nothing else is allowed to grow underneath.

And then you read the values that these religions preach. There is only one way, our way. If you don't follow our God, watch out! He loves you but you better love him back or else! To me, that's a cult in action.

Contrast this with the values that Hindus preach. All religions are equal and there is no one way to reach God! Only a Hindu would say, "Ishwar, Allah Tere Naam".

Do you really think it is just a coincidence that until recent years western and muslim lands were barren except for one religion? Do you really think 3 or 400 years ago, someone like the Buddha would be allowed to freely propagate his faith in europe or the muslim lands? You can't even do that today in some muslim countries! Carrying the Gita in your hand could get you arrested!

The bottom line is that Abrahamic religions are King religions, God made in the image of a King. There can be only one King, it is not a democracy. This is the reason why when the Taliban imposes sharia law, democracy goes out of the window.

Hinduism/Buddhism are democratic religions, they are teacher religions. When the generals took over Thailand, I predicted that it would not last. I was right, the generals peacefully went back to their baracks.

[nac]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, RamaRaksha. That's not what I meant by my first comment, however, you might want to review the history of Islamic states. Before the resurgence of fundamentalism in modern times, they used to be the most accepting of other religions in the west, not to mention a powerhouse of science and philosophy. Much more so than Christian nations. For example, modern optics was discovered in medieval Islamic states.

[RamaRaksha]

No problem nac, I gave rise to your doubts by not being totally clear.

Regarding Islam, I am not so sure that they were so accomodating towards other religions at any point in time. We have in India, people called Parsees, who follow the Zoarashtrian faith, have been living in India for centuries. They were originally people of Iran. Why did they flee iran to come to India? You guessed it, Islam.

I do agree that in matters of science and music, muslims of prior years were much more enlightened.

To me, what is happening today is fear - the world used to be dominated by brawn, but slowly is moving towards being dominated by the brain. Muslim nations seem unable to deal with the changing times. Imagine dealing with a woman as your boss. The more the world moves forward, the more they move backward, shutting their women even more under burkhas.

"The koran holds all the truths known to man", of course it does, it's quite easy to read the koran. Try learning advanced physics.

It scares me as an Indian, to think of what will happen with the muslims in India. They are not as committed towards education as most Hindus are, have larger families and also prefer to keep their women in the house. Hence they keep falling behind, and of course, don't want to take the responsibility. Easy to play the blame game.