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Thread: Īśvara's participation...

  1. #1
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    Īśvara's participation...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté

    Īśvara ( ruler, Lord, the Divine with form - saguṇa-brahman), is He actively participating in this world? this Universe? The Upaniad-s inform us He enters into this creation.

    Yet Kṛṣṇa informs us in the Bhāgavad-gītā (4.14 ) ' actions do not involve me, nor have I any longing for the fruit of action '
    One can say - how could He not? He is the very essence of consciousness , His cit-śakti ( power/energy of consciousness)
    make all of us animated.

    Yet the question may be posed with an example… let's say we add ~energy ~ ( consciousness) to a car ( the world, society,
    the individual, etc). One can say this energy is active - it propels the car forward, it is involved with the car. Yet the energy/gas does not care ( indifference) which direction the car is going. Like that, is this the condition of Īśvara - the essence of all things, yet is indifferent to the direction the individual, society, universe is going?

    By the laws of nature of expansion, the society grows, the universe expands, the individual grows physically and spiritually - i.e.
    'auto pilot' is on.

    Does the Lord intervene in this world, in affairs? What is your thinking on this matter?

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #2

    Re: Īśvara's participation...

    Baba Yajvan Ji

    This thing you have brought up, has been on my mind for a while. If God will first forgive my arrogance on discussing such ideas, I will add something.

    In the analogy of the car the energy/gas has to go through various transmutations before it can propel the car. First The energy/gas/cause has 'helpers' such as spark plugs, the engine and the wheels. The cause must go through various limitating changes. I.e. pure energy must become specified/limited to affect a certain effect. If the car did not contain these 'intermediary parts' then the energy from the gas could not have any effect in our reality. If we need help in this world we can improve things with the help of the car parts i.e. better engine, new wheels etc. But without the gas none of these parts are worth anything, yet the gas itself cannot help us improve the running of the car but the maintenance of the parts means our car will run smoothly and not cause us pain. When man neglects the maintenance of his car, the gas still causes the car to go but it will not run efficently.

    The car equates with the universe. The parts with the gods, His viceregents. The King of Kings does not concern himself with some poor outpost in the middle of nowhere lacking in trade and finery, No, he appoints viceregents and satraps to deal with such places, the High King only deals with them who are close to him, those far from him are under command of certain rulers of certain parts of the universe.

  3. #3
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    Re: Īśvara's participation...

    Pranam Yajvan ji and all

    but then Krishna also says
    isvarah sarva-bhutanam
    hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati
    bhramayan sarva-bhutani
    yantrarudhani mayaya

    The Lord abides in the heart of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings to act (or work out their Karma) by His power of Maya as if they are (puppets of Karma) mounted on a machine. (18.61)

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  4. #4
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    Re: Īśvara's participation...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    Namast amra and Ganeshprasad,

    These are very compelling posts you were kind enough to offer. I will wait till others give their insights as I have several questions I think are germane to both of your posts. If offered now it just may derail our forward progress. Let us see what others may wish to contribute, then I will ask.


    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #5
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    Re: Īśvara's participation...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté

    Amra writes,
    The car equates with the universe. The parts with the gods, His viceregents. The King of Kings does not concern himself with some poor outpost in the middle of nowhere lacking in trade and finery, No, he appoints viceregents and satraps to deal with such places, the High King only deals with them who are close to him, those far from him are under command of certain rulers of certain parts of the universe.

    Yes, I see how this can be, His agents. Yet amra, do you think then that the vice-agents themselves intervene in the works and actions of people? That is they change the course of action ? Action A is altered due to the choice and re-direction of the vice-agent?

    Ganeshprasad writes,
    The Lord abides in the heart of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings to act (or work out their Karma) by His power of Maya as if they are (puppets of Karma) mounted on a machine. (18.61)

    Yes, He abides in us all - to this I agree fully. Yet does He intervene? Do he choose another action for a person other then the one that would have occurred via the natural flow of karma ?
    It is said, not even a blade of grass moves without His knowing… of this I have no doubt. Yet if the blade of grass was to bend from North to South, would Īśvara at times choose it to bend a different direction or not at all under the influence of the wind? Many would say the bending from N to S is perfect, and within the laws of nature - why would He intervene. Sure this makes sense, but only offered to exemplify a point and that is His active participation in this world.
    This is at the crux of my query.

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #6
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    Re: Īśvara's participation...

    Namaste Yajvan ji,

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Īśvara ( ruler, Lord, the Divine with form - saguṇa-brahman), is He actively participating in this world? this Universe? The Upaniṣad-s inform us He enters into this creation.

    Yet Kṛṣṇa informs us in the Bhāgavad-gītā (4.14 ) ' actions do not involve me, nor have I any longing for the fruit of action '
    One can say - how could He not? He is the very essence of consciousness , His cit-śakti ( power/energy of consciousness)make all of us animated.
    There are a few verses I shall like to quote :

    "Na Kartritvam na karmANi lokasya srijati prabhu,
    Na Karmaphala sanjogam svabhavstu pravartate !" (BG 5.14)

    ====> The Isvara doesn't create the action, the cause of action or the result of the actions. It is the Nature that works.

    "Yada Yada Hi Dharmasya Glanir Bhavathi Bharatha,
    Abhyuthanam Adharmaysya Tadatmanam Srijami Aham". (BG 4.7)

    "Paritranaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam.
    Dharma sansthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge". (BG 4.8)

    ===> Whenever there is decay of righteousness O! Bharatha And a rise of unrighteousness then I manifest Myself! For saving the righteous, and the virtuous, For the destruction of evil, For the re-establishment of the Dharma, I advent myself in every age.


    The first quoted verse & the two thereafter above must be simultaneously true as Krishna knows what exactly he is talking about. BG 4.7 & 4.8 ... is it not indulging in action ? But let us not forget that it is as per the Nature as stated in the first verse & He knows it too well. He appears to be involved but is not because he doesn't associate (attach) himself (individual self) in all actions & that is why he remains unaffected by the actions though apparently involved in it. That is the remedy he prescribes to Arjuna i.e. the Karma-Yoga, to remain unaffected by the effect of all actions in this world.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  7. #7

    Re: Īśvara's participation...

    Namaste Devotee
    The Lord is unattached to the world and as you write "he remains unaffected by the actions though apparently involved in it." Then the question becomes, in relevance to this thread, is this 'apparent' involvement able to influence events in the world or is Ishvar unaffected by maya and therefore indifferent to us mayins or those possesed of maya.

    Namaste Yajvan
    My understanding is the 'gods' are the cause of events on Earth, God is the cause of all causes thus his direct influence is limited. The lesser 'gods' reflect their images down to Earth, but the image becomes blurred with succesive reflections. The images are what move Humans. Jung called them archetypes. The desire for something sweet like a cake impels us to act and find a cake and maybe get money to buy a cake - numerous actions. The desire is an image with a certain energy that enables action. The quality and depth of certain desires vary. The primordial image is from the 'gods' but this pure image gets blurred by maya and therefore instead of a desire that is in Harmony with the forces that originated the desire, thereby sanctifying it, the desire becomes 'bastardized' seperated from the vivifying forces that originated it. We can only act in this world through the power of the 'gods' as they are the source of all images the pure reflections of the cause of causes, they are pure potentialities. So whatever act is done in this world is only done by the power of God, it is the only way it can be done. The duty of our human birth lies connecting our act with the pure form of potentiality that originated it. An act in sacrifice to God is to raise an act to the reflection of a pure image an act in harmony with the universe, whereas an act that is muddied by maya leads to the destruction of man. Sorry to have wandered off topic but, this leads to the idea that for a viceregent to intervene in the life of man is not possible, man must first bring his actions in line with that of the viceregent to allow the viceregent to act through him. There is no entity seperate from man that can affect him man can only conduct the effects of forces.
    Last edited by amra; 07 October 2009 at 07:06 PM.

  8. #8

    Re: Īśvara's participation...

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    Yes, He abides in us all - to this I agree fully. Yet does He intervene? Do he choose another action for a person other then the one that would have occurred via the natural flow of karma ?
    It is said, not even a blade of grass moves without His knowing of this I have no doubt. Yet if the blade of grass was to bend from North to South, would Īśvara at times choose it to bend a different direction or not at all under the influence of the wind? Many would say the bending from N to S is perfect, and within the laws of nature - why would He intervene. Sure this makes sense, but only offered to exemplify a point and that is His active participation in this world.
    This is at the crux of my query.

    praṇām
    Yajvan Ji,
    Here is my limited understanding.
    In universe, it is Prakriti that is being acted upon. Prakriti would include all material/energy and the methods of transmitting information (such as electricity). All the actions are coming out of this Prakriti.

    BG 3.27
    प्रकृते क्रियमाणानि गुणै: कर्माणि सर्वश: ।
    अहंकारविमूढात्मा कर्ताहमिति मन्यते ॥
    Everywhere, of nature (Prakriti) and by dispositions (Gunas) the actions are performed. Deluded by ego (Ahamkar), I am doer(Karta), one thinks that way.

    Further more Ishwara as told in Yogasutra I.24 states -
    क्लेशकर्मविपाकाशयैरपरामृष्टः पुरुषविशेष ईश्वरः |
    Isvara is a distinct, incorruptible form of pure awareness, utterly independent of cause and effect, and lacking any store of latent impressions.

    So, Ishwara is someone who is not associated with actions. It is form of pure awareness. Therefore, actions cannot come out of Ishwara alone. Such is the existence, that Ishwara's manifestation in Prakriti is required to perform the actions. Now since, Ishwara is free of latent impression(sanskaras), He or she can act totally in Dharmic tradition. That is probably why Krishna does say that He needs to incarnate when Adharma is too much.

    Once Ishwara is manifested in Prakriti why would He change the laws? My understanding would be that laws remain as they are, because ultimately they are part of creation as well. Our understanding of these laws can be limited or can be based on certain assumptions, but they
    are what they are, Purusha cannot act outside of it.
    Look forward to more clarifications.
    HariH Om.
    Hare Krishna

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    Re: Īśvara's participation...

    Namaste Amra ji,

    Quote Originally Posted by amra View Post
    The Lord is unattached to the world and as you write "he remains unaffected by the actions though apparently involved in it." Then the question becomes, in relevance to this thread, is this 'apparent' involvement able to influence events in the world or is Ishvar unaffected by maya and therefore indifferent to us mayins or those possesed of maya.
    As I understand it, the involvement is apparent from God's perspective. It is not that action is not there. Action is there without his involvement as He is the Knower that all actions are due to the three gunas of the Prakriti. This non-involvement is at mental level (through non-attachment to the results) though there may be involvement at the physical level.

    So, as action is there, there is effect on this world of those actions. Lord is unaffected from Maya only because of this non-involvement at mental level & this rule applies to everyone. That is what he advises Arjuna that he should do the work without getting involved in it mentally (through non-attachment to the results) & thus remain free from all sins or merits (punya) arising out of those actions.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #10
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    Re: Īśvara's participation...

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté harekrishna (et.al)

    Quote Originally Posted by harekrishna View Post
    In universe, it is Prakriti that is being acted upon. Prakriti would include all material/energy and the methods of transmitting information (such as electricity). All the actions are coming out of this Prakriti.

    BG 3.27
    प्रकृते क्रियमाणानि गुणै: कर्माणि सर्वश: ।
    अहंकारविमूढात्मा कर्ताहमिति मन्यते ॥
    Everywhere, of nature (Prakriti) and by dispositions (Gunas) the actions are performed. Deluded by ego (Ahamkar), I am doer(Karta), one thinks that way.
    I wrote
    Yet Kṛṣṇa informs us in the Bhāgavad-gītā (4.14 ) ' actions do not involve me, nor have I any longing for the fruit of action '

    Some great insights and conversations are coming from this string. I wish to add another verse from the Bhāgavad-gītā (5.14) that contributes to the conversation:
    The Lord creates neither the authorship of action nor the action of beings; nor does He create the link between ( the doer ), the action and its fruits. Nature (prakṛti) carries this out.

    ' Beings ' says Kṛṣṇa create their own actions and this has been consistent.

    Now, one must re-read Bhāgavad-gītā (3.22) In the 3 worlds there is no action which I need to do (says Kṛṣṇa) , nor is there for Me anything worth attaining unattained - even so I am engaged in action.

    That is, our entire creation is the manifested aspect of His unmanifested perfectly silent Being. Here is His 'action' - remaining unmanifest He manifests Himself as all 3 worlds ( and probably beyond that). Yet there is a conversation we must have at the end so we too experience this full range of living from manifest to unmanifest - but I offer this to show the full range of the Divine.

    His agents of action are the 3 guna-s - this has been offered by several HDF members above. Yet devotte offers a compelling position that has great bearing on this topic,
    "Paritranaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam.
    Dharma sansthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge". (BG 4.8)
    Whenever there is decay of righteousness O! Bharatha And a rise of unrighteousness then I manifest Myself! For saving the righteous, and the virtuous, For the destruction of evil, For the re-establishment of the Dharma, I advent myself in every age.

    Even though the Lord during His daily routine ( if I may have permission to say that) stays out of the affairs of individuals but provides the 'raw materials' for actions to continue i.e. the guna-s, He will intercede by Kṛṣṇa words of the 7th-8th verses of chapter 4 of the Bhāgavad-gītā.

    And if we look to the greater picture of the Mahābhārata, we find Kṛṣṇa's influence again and again - He is interceding. Was his selection of actions ever wrong? how could they be? As He knows what the results of those actions will yield today, tomorrow and of the future, how could a directive from Him be a wrong choice?

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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