Īśvara's participation...

[atanu]

So, Ishwara is someone who is not associated with actions. It is form of pure awareness.

Namaste harekrishna,

It is true, yet all actions flow simply because of Brahman-Ishwara's existence. Prakriti would be just void, if it had no owner.

I will relate a story to clarify. Parikshit was a stillborn child, from the effect of arrows of Asvatthama. It was known that only by touch of a nityabrahmachari could the child be saved. But even Suka, who was a genuine celibate, dared not touch the child. Then Krishna said "If I am a nityabrahmachari may the child be brought to life." Parikshit was thus saved. But we know of Krishna's raslila with 16000 gopis.

It is said that Ishwara does not see anything or anyone different from himself. Krishna teaches that although all objects are from Him, He does not abide in objects. For Him there is no action, though He acts. On the other hand, we see others all the time, and act impelled by that motivation of separateness.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Yajvan ji and all

Nice discussion is flowing, I see mainly from Bhagvat Gita, I am sure others can join us from using other source of information not that I am complaining because I find Gita to be great source of information and some what easy to follow.

Yes, He abides in us all - to this I agree fully. Yet does He intervene? Do he choose another action for a person other then the one that would have occurred via the natural flow of karma ?
It is said, not even a blade of grass moves without His knowing� of this I have no doubt. Yet if the blade of grass was to bend from North to South, would Īśvara at times choose it to bend a different direction or not at all under the influence of the wind? Many would say the bending from N to S is perfect, and within the laws of nature - why would He intervene. Sure this makes sense, but only offered to exemplify a point and that is His active participation in this world.
This is at the crux of my query.

Although I find in everyday scheme of things he does not intervene or does he? but in extreme circumstance he does as it has been pointed out by Devotee ji, bg. chapter 4 from time to time he does advent to bring the balance.
I also feel it is he, who gives us the knowledge to overcome obstacles when we are lost in this darkness of existence, although we later give our self the credit, yet I wonder many times in my case, how did I do that.

He is our chetya guru within and when we deserve or sincerely desire he sends the Guru externally to transcend this dukhaliyam, the abode of misery.

When devas and danavas got together to churn the ocean it was lord Hari who acted as pivot and we all know what would have happened were it not for Lord Shiva to drink the poison.

He answers the prayers, so that could be another form of intervention.

Story of Gajendra comes to mind.

And then he says this
To those ever steadfast devotees, who always remember or worship Me with single-minded contemplation, I personally take responsibility for their welfare. (9.22)

I give the knowledge, to those who are ever united with Me and lovingly adore Me, by which they come to Me. (10.10)

I like this one, so karuna sagar is more active then we think.

Out of compassion for them I, who dwell within their heart, destroy the darkness born of ignorance by the shining lamp of knowledge. (10.11)

I swiftly become their savoir, from the world that is the ocean of death and transmigration, whose thoughts are set on Me, O Arjuna. (12.07)

Jai Shree Krishna

[harekrishna]

Atanu Ji,
Namaste.

Namaste harekrishna,

It is true, yet all actions flow simply because of Brahman-Ishwara's existence. Prakriti would be just void, if it had no owner.

It is said that Ishwara does not see anything or anyone different from himself. Krishna teaches that although all objects are from Him, He does not abide in objects. For Him there is no action, though He acts. On the other hand, we see others all the time, and act impelled by that motivation of separateness.

Om Namah Shivaya

I agree with the fact that Lord Himself acts. As told by you, also by Yajvan jee, Devotee jee, Ganesh Prasad jee among others.

The point is he could not act if there were no Prakriti, and He, the pure one, was not in existence within Prakriti. Action is happening in Prakriti. As told in BG 4.7 and 4.8, Lord Himself manifests when there is too much of Adharma. My reading is that, therefore, for Lord to act He needs to get into the field of Prakriti. Since He is a perfect Yogi, the fruits of the actions (Karma phalas) do not attach to him, and He acts in total consonance with the Dharmic laws.

Please note that I am making a differentiation between Ishwara and Purush. Ishwara is a liberated Purusha or, Ishwara is Lord Himself. Ordinary purushas like myself are indeed one and the same as the essence of Ishwara. But, deluded by the conditioned mind (Sanskaras), we act on the impulses from Indriyas and revel in the fruits of the actions (Karmaphalas). So, in a way, the essence of Ishwara indeed is working through various Purushas. But the ordinary Purusha can not be working cent percent (Shat Pratishat) within Dharma because of the Sanskaras. For Lord to act and bring back the Dharma, He indeed needs to incarnate.

Now why would Lord act outside of the laws of Prakriti? The seemingly miraculous acts of Lord must indeed be within these laws. Because of our limited understanding, we fail to understand the right laws. Let me give an example. Science now has made tremendous progress. If we took an instrument like Television and showed it to some isolated Adivasis in forrest, it would be magic for them. Many of them indeed can think that these actions are real and happening as it is. When my simpleton grandmother from village (God bless her) watched Ramayana, she indeed thought that this was the real Ramayan. Lord Himself was showing up on TV every Sunday at 9 am. (Just as a thought- even with all these misunderstanding, as a spiritual person she was probably more evolved that a city dwelling consumerist person like myself). The point is, for ignorants like me, I fail to understand these laws properly.

For the point raised by you, would Prakriti be void if Brahman was not there? The question also is - was there a time and would there be time when Prakriti or Purusha totally disappers. Is the relationship that of an master/servant or that of dual existence?

Prakriti likely will dissolve, when everyone is a realized soul. Was there a time when it was true or will be true. Hypothetical question, but I guess not. For lots of ordinary mortal, there is enough of Artha and Kama pleasures for the Prakriti to continue....

HariH Om.
Hare Krishna

[atanu]

Atanu Ji,
Namaste.

I agree with the fact that Lord Himself acts. As told by you, also by Yajvan jee, Devotee jee, Ganesh Prasad jee among others.

The point is he could not act if there were no Prakriti, and He, the pure one, was not in existence within Prakriti. Action is happening in Prakriti.

Dear Harekrishna,

I agree to what you say.

Yet, there are two steps. First is to discriminate Purusha and Prakriti and keep them separate through constant mindfullness. Rig Veda says that Lord Indra does this. In the second step, however, the flesh and all that we see has to be known as names of consciousness that is the sole reality. There is not another.

For example, ego is not individual property. So, there is no individual ego, but the sense "I am" rises from Atman and associates with different objects, which are only names of consciousness.

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

atanu writes,

Yet, there are two steps. First is to discriminate Purusha and Prakriti and keep them separate through constant mindfullness

This is of the greatest import … this viveka¹ ( discrimination) between puruṣa and prakṛti - that is, between Self and not-Self, between intellect and transcendent , between Silence and activity.

All these are the distinction (viveka) between that Silence within and the activity without. This is the grooming of consciousness, so one can keep that Silence in mind all the time ( 7x24x365).

This brings to light Kṛṣṇa's words in the Bhāgavad-gītā, 2nd chapter 50th verse, He whose intellect is united (with the Self) casts off both good and evil even here. Think of good and evil for this śloka to also say 'opposites' , and opposites are all found in the 3 guna-s. And what is the 3 guna-s? Prakṛti.
This union Kṛṣṇa speaks of equals being possessed of the Self (Bhāgavad-gītā 2nd chapter 45th verse). This condition is where one will finally understand by experience the following: ' actions do not involve me, nor have I any longing for the fruit of action ' -Bhāgavad-gītā (4.14).

Much more can be said about this. This condition or state is the discussion of the ages, being at peace and one with ātman - established in yoga (Bhāgavad-gītā chapter 2 verse 48).

But it is worthy of discussion - this distinction of Self and non-Self by intellectual effort (brute force) is IMHO most difficult to achieve due to the vigilance that has to be exercised. That is why the wise suggest various techniques ( upāya - skillful means). This is where various meditative techniques are aimed. To allow the individual to experience the Silence of the Self, then contrast it to the Activity of life - silence and action. This grooms one to this viveka to discern Self from non-Self over time.

praṇām

words
viveka विवेक- discrimination , distinction ; consideration , discussion , investigation; true knowledge , discretion , right judgement , the faculty of distinguishing and classifying things according to their real properties

[devotee]

All these are the distinction (viveka) between that Silence within and the activity without. This is the grooming of consciousness, so one can keep that Silence in mind all the time ( 7x24x365).

So simple and so much valuable !

OM

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste Yajvan,

I think you have touched upon a profound and very interesting question.

I had been quite confused about IsvarA's role in the grandeur of creation. According to sAnkhyA, IsvarA is like the artist who takes part in the cartoon he has drawn and then rediscovers his ultimate identity as one with the artist himself.

Of course, that is quite an oversimplification, but I feel another apt analogy for this is the fan. If you ever wonder how a fan really functions, one would just say, "Plug it in!" Well, the electricity is like consciousness that flows through the wire and into the motor that gives it its "life", which then turns the blades and pushes the air through. An appliance, like the fan, can said to be nonexistant without that infusion of "energy". In manifested reality, it seems to be just the same with consciousness.

With your question of intervention however, I feel that although the electricity powers the motor, it does not run through the blades and enclosure of the fan, thereby only indirectly affecting them. With consciousness on the other hand, there is NOTHING that is not touched by it. In fact, there is, according to Advaita, nothing but consciousness!

I believe Sri Ramana Maharishi stated that while we are in the mode of avidya (ignorance), we think we take independent action, however once we are jnanis (realized), there is not a single action that is not predetermined or truly independent!

I don't think one lifetime is enough to come to a satisfactory answer for such a question!

Namaskar.

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namast�

Īśvara ( ruler, Lord, the Divine with form - saguṇa-brahman), is He actively participating in this world? this Universe? The Upaniṣad-s inform us He enters into this creation.

Yet Kṛṣṇa informs us in the Bhāgavad-gītā (4.14 ) ' actions do not involve me, nor have I any longing for the fruit of action '
One can say - how could He not? He is the very essence of consciousness , His cit-śakti ( power/energy of consciousness)
make all of us animated.

Yet the question may be posed with an example� let's say we add ~energy ~ ( consciousness) to a car ( the world, society,
the individual, etc). One can say this energy is active - it propels the car forward, it is involved with the car. Yet the energy/gas does not care ( indifference) which direction the car is going. Like that, is this the condition of Īśvara - the essence of all things, yet is indifferent to the direction the individual, society, universe is going?

By the laws of nature of expansion, the society grows, the universe expands, the individual grows physically and spiritually - i.e.
'auto pilot' is on.

Does the Lord intervene in this world, in affairs? What is your thinking on this matter?

praṇām

[atanu]

Namaste TTA,

Some scripture and commentaries suggest the similarity with role of sun or of air with Ishwara's role. Sun exists so we exist, though Sun remains the same and untouched by our existence and our karma. But because of Ishwara, the sun exists and functions. It is said that fear of Him drives all devatas (Katha Upanishad). In opposition to Sankhya, Shankara re-emphasized that it is Ishwara who regulates the karmaphala of all.

On the other hand, at another level, for a Jnani-Mukta, Ishwara is not a separate Lord. The Self itself becomes the Lord and whatever else.

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namast� TTA and atanu,

Brillant posts - thank you.
there is so much truth in what you say,

I believe Sri Ramana Maharishi stated that while we are in the mode of avidya (ignorance), we think we take independent action, however once we are jnanis (realized), there is not a single action that is not predetermined or truly independent!

May we all have the opportunity to experience this. My teacher called it, becoming an exponent of Reality.

praṇām