Apostasy/excommunication from the RC Church.

[Star]

Is it that you have or had some official relationship with the church or every citizen of your country who is born as a christian has to do it (letter)?

I'm not sure I understood what you meant by official relationship...I was never a nun or a "Sunday school" teacher or anything as such, the closest I got to anything as such was singing and reading in mass when I was about 8-10 years old (I think). But I don't think that counts as official... :?

If we are to consider the amount of "Catholics" the Church claim they have in the country (80%...what a laugh), and out of those I'd imagine quite a few would like to not have any formal (or mystical) ties with the Church, but don't actually know they can go through an apostasy process and/or they can't be bothered with it. I've come across a Portuguese atheist website and the three men who run it are siblings, but only one went through with a formal apostasy process from the Church, his siblings didn't find it necessary.

I'm not sure that actually answered your question as it didn't quite understand the question itself but I hope it made some sense...

[sunyata07]

Namaste Eriko,

I think Star is after some closure here, something which may seem strange, but is actually quite reasonable if you consider that it has been her religion her whole life. It's a big step in one's life. A bit like a statement of beliefs and maybe even a dedication of sorts to devote her time to her new religious path. One does not necessarily have to have been employed by the Church or been especially religious, but now that she has been visiting her temple and making offerings at home, I can understand why she'd want to put any Catholic ties she's had in the past properly behind her. It's all relative. In my case, I am still "officially" a member of my Church, although I don't consider myself a practising Catholic any longer. I may eventually follow suit like Star and try and see about cutting ties proper.

[eriko]

I'm not sure that actually answered your question as it didn't quite understand the question itself but I hope it made some sense...

Yes it made sense. I thought that you might be holding some position in the church and that is why you are following such a procedure. But of course you weren't. And yes I do understand now why you feel this to be necceasary.

I think Star is after some closure here, something which may seem strange, but is actually quite reasonable if you consider that it has been her religion her whole life. It's a big step in one's life. A bit like a statement of beliefs and maybe even a dedication of sorts to devote her time to her new religious path. One does not necessarily have to have been employed by the Church or been especially religious, but now that she has been visiting her temple and making offerings at home, I can understand why she'd want to put any Catholic ties she's had in the past properly behind her. It's all relative. In my case, I am still "officially" a member of my Church, although I don't consider myself a practising Catholic any longer. I may eventually follow suit like Star and try and see about cutting ties proper.

I see. I think I got it. Sorry if I caused unnecesary trouble. Thanks to both of you.

[Star]

Namaste Eriko You caused no trouble at all! This is a discussion board after all and your question was perfectly valid. I suppose the whole "formal apostasy letter" just seems a bit weird as a "religious tool" for someone from an Indian background, non? Least I thought it sounded a bit like a "Western thing" to do (albeit necessary, in my point of view)...

[ScottMalaysia]

Namaste Star,

I am a former Roman Catholic. To be excommunicated from the Catholic Church, all you need to do is stop believing in the Catholic faith.

The Code of Canon Law (1983) states:

Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.

Latae sententiae literally means "given sentence". It means that the penalty comes into effect automatically as soon as the offence has been commited. By committing the sin of apostasy (rejecting Catholicism altogether), heresy (rejecting a specific Catholic doctrine) or schism (rejecting Church authority), one automatically excommunicates oneself from the Church. The moment you stopped believing that Jesus Christ was the only way to God and started worshipping Lord Ganesha, you excommunicated yourself from the Catholic Church. Congratulations, you are no longer part of the Church.

(By the way, a Catholic mother who gets an abortion also excommunicates herself in the same way.)

However, if you want to give yourself closure, you may wish to go to the parish where you were baptized and ask the priest if he will either remove your name from the parish records or write "Declared Apostate" beside your name. But you do not need to get a priest or any Church official to excommunicate you. You did it yourself by believing in another religion.

I never did this when I left the Catholic Church to join the Eastern Orthodox Church. My name is probably still in the parish records, but I don't really care. I know I'm not a Catholic (although I do still love the Traditional Latin Mass and Catholic devotions like the Rosary).

[rcscwc]

Yeah, their statistics indicate that they "represent 80% of people in the country", meaning actually that 80% or so have been baptised as children, which isn't anywhere near them being practising Catholics...even if that's what they're attempting (poorly?) to imply. I'll write to whoever it takes, it just a bit frustrating not getting a reply! I wonder if they think not replying to my emails will make me "stay" with them... :S

Agains lols are in order.

If you go by the stats of the church, India became predoninantly xian YESTERDAY. If you believe them, millions of Hindus are already knocking on the church doors for conversion. But the stark fact is that for the last century, xian population in India has stagnated at about 2.5%, inspite of the high birth rates.

But I still think you must take your parents into confidence. They will not like it, but they do deserve to know. It is at least a moral duty for you.

Second, if your convictions are strong, you should not be afraid of any violence, physical or mental.

[Gotam]

Namaste,

I got a catholic education, but catholicism never really spoke to my heart. I have known many different types of priests and churchgoing laymen, and had affection for some, but I have always been an outsider to their faith, even though as a child, I was expected and often had to practice.

One reason why I felt a stranger to catholicism is the fact that although Jesus was clearly opposed to legalism (the strict application of the word of a law, in his case Jewish law), the church that pretends to replace him, has created a body of law. They even try to make us believe that carrying out their instructions amounts to following Jesus' example! The opposite is true. People believed this when it was still forbidden for catholics to read the Bible, and when the parish priest was the main source of information in the village.

Thirty years ago, I considered leaving the catholic church formally. But several friends of mine who had sent letters to their bishop to that effect had received no reply. That is normal: if they had to spend time writing to all those who leave their church, there would be no time left for anything else. In Europe, they already lack staff and volunteers for their most basic tasks.

I had not seen the point in following their legalistic, obedience/disobedience logics before, but then I was told the church would get more subsidies from the Belgian state if I officially remained a catholic. That was wishful thinking. It is true in Germany, and the result is that fewer Germans leave their church than Belgians do: when you force people to pay taxes for something, they will dislike it more than if they pay for it on a voluntary basis (like in Germany). I ignored the church, did not follow any formal apostasy procedure and simply went my own way. And that is what nowadays 80% of baptised Belgians do. They will never return. Catholicism in Western Europe is doomed.

What is left is sometimes a form of more or less spiritual Christianity without the church and its law, and more often a rejection of Christianity, or even of all forms of religion. The good news is that many more people are open to all sorts of old and new ideas and lifestyles nowadays. Dharmic traditions tend to be respected. The bad news has been excessive materialism, but although it is still very strong, I get the impression that that, too, is on the way out.

Now there is no materialistic church to declare our apostasy to. Apart from the communist party, but their materialism is not the most successful one. If there was a church for every conviction, some people would have to write apostasy letters every second year.

[PatrickMB]

I personally believe that anyone who sincerely follows the teachings of the Christ will find liberation. Just as sincere followers of Zoroaster, Mohammed and Hinduism will achieve moksha. I am very tired of the prostlitizng of the Abrahamic Faiths. Let every sincere soul find its own path to the Lord.

[Adhvagat]

Patrick, I, differently from some more radical over here, also believe that once there was an original purely spiritual introspective teaching of spirituality based on Christ's teachings. But the problem is: How to be a sincere follower of Christ guiding oneself through a book tainted by a very dark history? Where are the sincere Christ teachings not amidst a very old moral codex? Can we trust them? Should a Christian believe in reincarnation? The problem is not that being a Christian is bad, the problem is HOW to be a sincere follower of Christ. It's been wiped away by those very people who like to call themselves Christians. The other problem is dumb universalism, when we try to mingle (so-called) Christianity and Dharma just because society (or our own sentimental connections) expects us to still be Christian.

As I was reading in a book just yesterday, quoting in a free translation:

Christianity, in certain aspect, has become a historical reminiscence. Like we were rehearsing our historical past, transforming it into an exterior imitation.

If we observe the history of the western world, with its wars and bloody fights, we'll see that Christianization did not hit us. We are Christian in the outside, but when it comes to interior psychological facts, we're barbarian pagans completely. We read the gospel, repeat its verses, but most people are not touched by it.

My experience is exactly this. I was never touched spiritually by Christianity, I never resonated with it. But for those who resonate with, by all means be sincere and try to look beyond all the lies and historical mess.

Some interesting threads for your consideration:

- http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...1&postcount=81
- http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2954

[sm78]

I personally believe that anyone who sincerely follows the teachings of the Christ will find liberation. Just as sincere followers of Zoroaster, Mohammed and Hinduism will achieve moksha. I am very tired of the prostlitizng of the Abrahamic Faiths. Let every sincere soul find its own path to the Lord.

Those who try to FOLLOW teachings of dead humans whether Christ, Zoroaster, Mohammed or Buddha or Krishna will NOT achive moksha. By following somebody one can at best become a follower with different degrees of fanatism. Also since neither mohammed nor christ teach anything about moksha - the fanatism will perhaves express in other dimensions like missionary activities or terrorist violence. Followin a terrorist will make you a terrorist follower. Mohammed was prolific terrorist leader of his time.