The Taboo of Enlightenment

[saidevo]

namaste devotee.

I would like to slightly differ from the presentation of a Self-Realized you have given above:

Although turIya is popularly understood to be a fourth state beyond jAgrat--waking, svapna--dreaming and suShupti--deep sleep states of our existence, the term turIya also means 'that which comprises of four parts', so the state of turIya pervades all the other three states, like the sandhi--meeting of day and night, in and out breathing, clock ticks and so on.

The prANa that stirs jIvAtmas originates right from the Atman--Self because of its lIlA, so a jnAni--Self-Realized, who subsists in turIya is also aware of the other three states, so long as he resides in a body: like a normal human, he is awake talking and laughing and singing, he works through the dreams of other jIvAtmas and has his daily hours of deep sleep. The only difference between such a jnAni and an ordinary person is that the jnAni, because he subsists in turIya, is aware that he is waking, dreaming or in deep sleep.

So, IMHO, a jnAni can very well speak about his Self-Realization, and when he gives out personal references, we need to understand it to mean as the person we see in him rather than the Self he sees all around.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~


Namasté

I would like to slightly differ from the presentation of a Self-Realized you have given above:
Although turIya is popularly understood to be a fourth state beyond jAgrat--waking, svapna--dreaming and suShupti--deep sleep states of our existence, the term turIya also means 'that which comprises of four parts', so the state of turIya pervades all the other three states, like the sandhi--meeting of day and night, in and out breathing, clock ticks and so on.

With saidevo's permission, I'd like to contribute the following to the conversation. This turya (caturtha) is of great import; one also may wish to consider turyātīta (beyond the 4th).

• turya तुर्य forming a 4th part ;
• turyā (femine gender) तुर्या superior power;

Who talks of this 4th? māṇḍūkya upaniṣad ( 12th śloka) ; the Śiva sūtra-s of Vasugupta (some call Maheśvara sūtra-s) considered śivopaniṣad saṅgraha; it is reviewed in verse 3.20. Is there another place perhaps identifying Kṛṣṇa as this 4th? Śrīmad Bhāgavatam offers this in 11.15.16.

FYI - svāmī Lakṣman-jū tells us this turya is savyāpāra¹ - occupied , or busily engaged . How so? All other states of conciousness find their home, their origin there, their 'power to function' comes from there, says svāmī Lakṣman-jū. He says it is also known as anāmayā¹ - free from blemishes, impurities - completely unagitated from any and all other states (~levels, conditions, energies~) of consciousness.

Yogins call this rūpātita (rūpa - to assume a form + ātita or gone by , past ) says svāmī -ji. This 4th has surpassed (ātita) the touch of one's self ( note small s, or ~individual~) or form, and is the establishment of one's Self ( note capital S or ~Universal~ status).

praṇām

words

• savyāpāra सव्यापार - occupied , busily engaged ;having employment
• anāmayā अनामय - free from disease , healthy

[atanu]

namaste devotee.

I would like to slightly differ from the presentation of a Self-Realized you have given above:

Although turIya is popularly understood to be a fourth state beyond jAgrat--waking, svapna--dreaming and suShupti--deep sleep states of our existence, the term turIya also means 'that which comprises of four parts', so the state of turIya pervades all the other three states, like the sandhi--meeting of day and night, in and out breathing, clock ticks and so on.

The prANa that stirs jIvAtmas originates right from the Atman--Self because of its lIlA, so a jnAni--Self-Realized, who subsists in turIya is also aware of the other three states, so long as he resides in a body: like a normal human, he is awake talking and laughing and singing, he works through the dreams of other jIvAtmas and has his daily hours of deep sleep. The only difference between such a jnAni and an ordinary person is that the jnAni, because he subsists in turIya, is aware that he is waking, dreaming or in deep sleep.

So, IMHO, a jnAni can very well speak about his Self-Realization, and when he gives out personal references, we need to understand it to mean as the person we see in him rather than the Self he sees all around.

Namaste saidevo ji,

You are correct and devotee is also correct. Turiya by definition is a state out of the four states but also advaita in itself.

I will try to express that which is not expressible. We know that words come back therefrom. Actually word originates there. Shri Ramana Maharshi expressed this angst by replying to one questioner "Even if I explain, you will not comprehend".

Let me put the perspective from my understanding and limited experience.

The primeval "I" is Brahman. But that which is "I" looks out through the senses and sees the world. In this case, the ignorant sees objects as intelligent and full of prAna. But the Jnani knows that the true intelligence and prAna reside inside the "I".

In the second case, the "I" looks inside the "I" and finds no "I" and no world but only homogeneous sat-chit-ananda, consituting its nature.

In the third case, the "I" is the Master, Mahesvara, who can look bothways. He remains inside the "I" and yet looks out through the window of "I" to the Universe. I intuit that Shiva looking from Srisailam out to Venkatesvara, means this.

One may note that the second and the third options noted above apply only to Jnanis/avataras/gods etc. and not to us, since we do not know the inside of "I".

----------------------------
Now, the main problem of expressing "I know Brahman" can, I hope, be better understood.

First, the word and mind come back from It. Second, it is almost impossible to explain to someone who has seen the house of "I" from outside as to how the house of "I" from inside is. The problem is further compounded since, the house of "I" from inside is limitless whereas from the outside we get only limited view that we take as reference point of reality. It is impossible to explain the inside of the house of "infinite I" by an entity by assuming the role of a limted "I".

To overcome these problems, Krishna says "I am all these". Yet He again says no one knows me.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

atanu offers this nice insight,

Now, the main problem of expressing "I know Brahman" can, I hope, be better understood.
First, the word and mind come back from It. Second, it is almost impossible to explain to someone who has seen the house of "I" from outside as to how the house of "I" from inside is. The problem is further compounded since, the house of "I" from inside is limitless whereas from the outside we get only limited view that we take as reference point of reality. It is impossible to explain the inside of the house of "infinite I" by an entity by assuming the role of a limited "I".
To overcome these problems, Krishna says "I am all these". Yet He again says no one knows me.

It is said, if you can practice yoga then you are not in turyātīta. That means there is still 2. As atanu mentions you are coming back from it, it is still a ~destination~ and not the every day reality that is lived at all times.

Those unfamiliar with IT may call it turya, the 4th part. Yogins may call it rūpātita or rūpa, to assume a form + ātita or gone by , past, as mentioned in post 12 above.
Now the jñāni-s may call this turya pracaya . A beautiful word pracaya प्रचय meaning a heap or mass . Some would correct me and say the proper name would be mahāpracaya, and I would have to agree. This is the notion of totality , the sum total of all universal existence - this is the ultimate ideal of bhūman भूमन् fullness, abundance, the aggregate of all existing things.

Because of this huge totality, it is the reason why (IMHO) Kṛṣṇa says no one (really) knows Me. This universe say the wise is just a particle of His totality. For me this greatness is captured in the word satatodita¹. It means that which has no break or pause - a continuum.

What then does this have to do with turya ? It (turya) is described in the tantrāloka¹ as that which has no pause, no break. This is the beauty of turya. If you are a sādhaka you may experience samādhi , it (turya) is there ; It you are not a sādhaka , it is there, because there is no break or pause of this 4th.
But why then do I not experience it yajvan? What you put your attention on grows stronger in your life. It is not that turya is not present, it is all about one's attention, intent, etc. to experience it. It's as if saying, how come I do not experience the refreshing waves of the ocean? One only need to visit the ocean - it is there. Like that, turya is there, one need to only set up the conditions for this to occur, But that said...
Just as you experience the weather ( wind, rain, etc.) that is produced by the influence of the ocean this turya is the core and foundation of the worldly states wake, dream or sleep. One experiences its influence in other states of awareness. To experience IT (turya) on its own is a whole different conversation that we have talked much about here on HDF. More can be said as interest will direct the conversation.

praṇām

words and references

• satatodita सततोदित we know by its components:
  • sata सत - a kind of sacrificial vessel
  • tata तत - extended , stretched , spread , diffused , expanded ; spreading over, covered over.
  • todita तोदित - goaded
  • dita दित - bound; cut or divided; cut , torn , divided
• The tantrāloka śloka says the following: turyātīte bheda ekaḥ sataodita ityayam ||

[Eastern Mind]

It appears to me that it is almost a taboo for a person to say they are a jivanmukta (self-realised or enlightened).

Perhaps to label oneself as enlightened would be to infer that individuals do exist (by the fact that we are different) and that an enlightened person should know better than to hint at such a thing.

It of course can be said that there is no such thing as an individual or enlightenment. It is avidya and Maya that veils. It does not mean that those who believe they are an individual will change on being told this, they may still feel a Guru is required.

Do we not risk stagnation as we wait for new fresh Gurus with the courage to tell the world they are enlightened to come along?

However most people refer to their Guru, so there must be people who have stepped up and offered their service.

I offer this slightly controversial post as I find the topic is one which is not so common and I would like to confirm if it is really a taboo to be a Jivanmukta in your opinion?

Snip, I just wanted to put this back on to remind people of the topic of this thread. I'm also curious as to whether or not you found it useful, and if it answered your original question in any way.

Aum Namasivaya

[devotee]

Wonderful inputs ! Thank you Saidevo ji, Atanu & Yajvan ji !!

EM,

You are right we have taken a little liberty here but the discussion is not completely off the topic. The thread was about enlightenment & why the enlightened ones didn't proclaim so easily that they were enlightened. So, you need to go a little deeper to understand what the scenario is on enlightenment. That would bring discussion on Turiya, TuriyAtItA etc. ... the most difficult things to understand & explain from the standpoint of one (e.g. me) who is not enlightened.

OM

[Onkara]

I'm also curious as to whether or not you found it useful, and if it answered your original question in any way.

. So, you need to go a little deeper to understand what the scenario is on enlightenment. That would bring discussion on Turiya, TuriyAtItA etc. ... the most difficult things to understand & explain from the standpoint of one (e.g. me) who is not enlightened.

Dear Eastern Mind & Devotee
Thank you for bringing the topic back to focus. I am satisfied with the answers provided and happy for more angles to be addressed as the sensation arises. The post, in my mind, is for the enjoyment of all and Turiya is of importance

I would like to add that I learnt from the answers you all provided. I now understand that it is not accurate (for me) to ask if there is a taboo in enlightenment, because enlightenment is knowing the non-dual Self; there is no duality. To ask if there is a taboo for the guru is to imply that there is still something different/wrong. I am creating a duality in raising these questions (which I had not seen before now).

It can be better explained that once the Self is known then life still continues around “you”; it is still the same consciousness, being and bliss from which the world arises. One who knows That knows Brahman. So the question has been answered. For an example, I raised the question of stagnation:

Do we not risk stagnation as we wait for new fresh Gurus with the courage to tell the world they are enlightened to come along?

It is no longer a matter of helping others to become enlightened, to say so would imply again, that there is still a search and searchers. Stagnation is just an impression. You are the Guru. It is all the play of consciousness and conceptualisation which leads to these questions.

I hope the above reads clearly.
Thanks again to all for input.

[Bholenath]

Namaste,

I came to this forum searching for something unrelated to this topic (aliens on dharma) but since for the last month or so I am starting to build a personal knowledge hub about moksha with all I can found about it on the web I took advantage of HDF's search feature and made some queries about "jivanmukta" here.


I want to tell you that I experienced nirvikalpa samadhi eleven years ago. After it happened my life became something totally different to what it was before in both a positive and a negative sense.


I know that with claiming this and with the disposition I have towards discussing it openly I may make either a scape-goat (to attack) or a laughing-stock out of myself because of the reactions to my confidences and arguments after hurting your egos; thus ruining any possibility of becoming a part of this comunity. Specially in this thread, I see quite a resentment from some of your egos. Sorry.


When I experienced nirvikalpa samadhi I have been doing hatha-yoga for the previous three years, but I must admit that my ignorance on other yogas was almost total. If you read my self-introduction you'll know that I am a westerner.


I think my things to tell about the topic are going to be moot point here but I am ready to discuss because I don't believe that I will find persons with a biased mind pertaining the subject.


When I experienced this nirvikalpa samadhi, that was the detonator of a concatenation of evolutive changes, I was very young, only 21 and two months years old and first of all I wanted to tell you that I feel very proud of being a Hindu and seeing how you people who haven't still reachen the awakened state are preparing for it.


Egoistically, my personal story wasn't that knowledgable. To give you a succint idea for you to understand, when I experienced nirvikalpa samadhi I haven't yet put a single (right) toe inside a Hindu mandir. But I believe that it was all due to my hatha-yoga for the last three years...


I offer you to tell you what I was reading in those years (my only dharmic source of knowledge when I was stil a jivan)... In my last years of adolescence until I saw and felt the nirvikalpa I was reading a hatha-yoga encyclopedia of one latvian yogini Indra Devi. I think Vivekananda's excerpt on the "words of wisdom" section were of such a visionary awakening power, along the words of around a dozen other luminaries like Ramakrishna, Aurobindo, Sivananda, and Tagore and even Krishnamurti... that I started being devout without knowing.


But before that nothing, neither something else besides that (except an ISKCON BG and ST since the eighties that I thought I couldn't understand a single word and that's why I never tried reading it... His maya?)... nor in '95-'98 there was something as a sastra on the Internet.


I had to search for myself, and of course you may realize that I started a process of conflict with the world in general that pushed me to a vaisnava mandir in BsAs City (not an ISKCON one)... when I knew Sanatan and varnasrama dharmas there I became deeply fanatic and extremist and addicted to neo-vaisnavism because I started learning how the BG touched liberation, giving it such import, so I maybe realized that the mystical experience I have had was something related to it but I didn't know anything beside what is revealed in the BG, this was two years after experiencing nirvikalpa.


I only came, for the first time, to the technicalities of it when I read the yoga sutras where in the thorough commentary of BKS Iyengar I was convinced that what I felt and saw had a name; and from that moment onwards I felt capable of telling the world what I was. Because in his commentary I could relate what I have felt with liberation.


So... you see, liberation without jnana isn't going to make one no good... I expect you understand me what I am trying to convey, I guessed that I have lived it, after reading the BG and some other things, specially trika, but I didn't have the means for continuing an ever-evolving meditation on the subject, until I started when I read kaivalya pada in the YS of Patanjali (BKSY's commentary)... nor I had the scriptural backing to say with propriety "I'm awakened."


Sorry if this sounds too much for you but I feel myself as the living proof of Bhagavad-Gita's reavealed means of moksa attainment: God's loving grace. I'll tell you why. I haven't seen in my life a single image or deity of any of the dharmic Gods in BsAs, out of the ones in that encyclopedia and the ones I downloaded from the Internet in '96-'97... and since the words of wisdom of great masters have stolen my heart... I could start expressing devotion for God only in those years of late adolescence when I found yoga. It was somethig very personal because in BsAs may prove very difficult to find a fellow yogi, what to say of a christianity-shunner like me.


Who knows? Maybe in this forums there are others like me who for a question of decorum may not have the will to put themselves at the mercy of the great majority, the ones still jivans (please don't feel hurted) Well... I, pesonally don't care, I will try to discuss with you (as long as you don't start disparaging me) this as much as I can because I am very hungry of knowledge on this after 11 years and yet is very meager my collection of scriptural material to back my "arguments" up.


I wonder about something... some scriptures say that it can't be put into words. Maybe it can't be put in sanskrit words, or it is difficult to do it? while I want to believe the opposite, have you stopped to think about this?

I think I can put dharma-megha-samadhi in words and be talking about if for quite a few pages... anyone interested?


I am more than eager to be probed about this claim. I am more than disposed to answer all your questions pertaining it and of course that I mean I want you to make me your subject of study.


And no, I am not affraid of being tested and reproved.


I can tell you, for instance, the complete index of luminaries features in that yoga encyclopedia. Will you want to know which ones were the masters that God liked me reading so much as to grant me liberation? I can tell you this... but you have to consider my personal situation: before the event. I was almost a total mlecca without the knowledge of what a single quality was. (this didn't mean that I didn't have them) the masters in the books were:


Swami Vivekananda
Krishnamurti
Swami Satchitananda
Sai Baba
Krishnamacarya
Yogananda
Sivananda
Sri Aurobindo
Gandhi
Sri Ramana Maharshi
Bhudda
Sri Ramakrishna
Baba Hari Daas
Rabindranath Tagore
BKS Iyengar
Swami Chidananda
Swami Vishnu Devananda
Swami Brahmananda
Swami Saradananda
Swami Ramakrishnananda
Swami Premananda
Swami Muktananda


These teachers, plus other yoga concepts, completely refined my stance towards the world previously to the mystical experience. In those years it wasn't easy to find some of this authors in BsAs... for me that didn't have anything it was a great wealth of knowledge, but it was only a single page by each. So I think that with this humble 28 pages plus how they made me feel and how they changed me was just enough for Him...


I am very interested in this topic mostly due to the unfairness of the definitions and the loose bits of information that are on the Internet about the word "jivanmukta." I think the information on the topic is scanty and because on the Internet there is not the complete, exhaustive exposition of something so much important, (at least for those of us who now about the subject or simply long for liberation) I remind you that I am doing a database on the topic that once ordered will be published somewhere. I just wanted to note this in front of you.

Last but not least I want to give thanks to Saidevo por posting his extense collection of nectarean books. From them I will now proceed to start Friesen's one on this topic for later discussions.


I will love to be asked things about my mystical experience.


Om Namaha Shivaya and Ma nastoke.

　

[Onkara]

Hello Bholenath
Thank you for your contribution to the thread. Please can you tell me briefly about bliss (Ananda) or lack of it, from your perspective? I would enjoy reading that.

The disposition you speak of is along the lines of the problem I hoped to address in raising this topic. I see little benefit in criticism and welcome people to step forward.

From a philosophical point of view I am not attracted to the term Nirvikalpa Samadhi, it moves the goal posts out further, forcing the aspirant to continue the search in want of some grand explosion. The Self is Now. I understand we need words to communicate, however I feel that it is often the use of these which will cause criticism.

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste:

Bholenath:

Firstly, I'm not contributing out of some need to prove or disprove, but to add to my own knowledge. My own guru experienced samadhi at a young age without scripture or Guru. So have others. I and others really do have no idea of your experience of realisation. That is for you to know. I personally would have a much better sense if I were in your presence, but that is impossible. Presence is much more powerful than words in these matters.

nirvikalpa samadhi: Enstasy without form or seed. the realisation of the Self, Parasiva, a state of oneness beyond all change or diversity, beyond time, form and space. (taken from the lexicon of "Dancing with Siva")

jivanmukta : One who has attained nivikalpa samadhi ... This attainment is the culmination of lifetimes or intense striving, sadhana, and tapas, requiring total renunciation, sannyasa, in the current incarnation. While completing life in the physical body, the jivanmukta enjoys the ability to re-enter nirvikalpa samadhi again and again. At this time, siddhis can be developed which are carried to the inner worlds after mahasamadhi. Such an awakened jnani benefits the population by simply being who he is. When he speaks, he does so without forethought. his wisdom is beyond reason, yet does not conflict with reason ... (from "Dancing with Siva")

This is just one of the definitions that would be out there. In no way am I implying it is the only way to define or speak of these words. Other teachers may have quite different definitions.

So, I have a couple of questions.

What brought you to HDF? What do you feel your purpose is here?
Have any students gathered around you yet, and if so, how is that going? Is there a small group established?

Again, all movements start somehow, and somewhere. ISKCON started out with the personal instructions of Prabupada's Guru to (someone might correct me if I'm wrong, I have heard that Prabupada didn't coin ISKCON himself, but certainly it got coined) 'spread the word' and look at the results today. Similarly, Yogananda established the Self-realisation fellowship. Other jivanmuktas just wander, especially in India, around temples, under trees etc., have no formal following, yet attuned individuals sense their 'presence' and will come for blessing or merely to touch the feet of the jivanmukta.

So perhaps we are witness to the beginnings of something?

Aum Namasivaya