No longer posting here
Namasté Bholenath
Thank you for finding the time to reply. I was pleased and interested to read your response. I felt that Yajvan ji captures the sentiments well and would be interested to read more about grooming the silence within.
Your individual experiences of Spanda are new to me, I have not heard or read of something similar.
Thank you.
Thanks for the response. I understand neither Advaita nor Buddhism deeply, but the post about different possible manifestations of enlightenment caught my attention. _/\_
Obviously, but that doesn't mean beneficial actions are necessarily indistinguishable from non-beneficial actions. It means that for an action to be beneficial, it must be suited to the present state or nature of it's recipient(s) in both relative and absolute terms.Originally Posted by Snip
PS. I only know about Karma Yoga from the Bhagavad Gita chapter.
Last edited by nac; 01 November 2009 at 09:52 AM.
Self Seeker
Namaste,
Correct, but I would like to point out the hidden danger due to mixing of dictum applicable in one state with the other.It is our mind which makes the distinctions between helpful actions and non-beneficial actions.
Does the above mean that we should indulge in any action & it would not result in any bad/good effect as long as I remember that quote mentioned above & I keep convincing myself that it is all because of our conditioned thinking ? Many people think so , especially those who are comparatively new to Advaita philosophy.
As long as my attachment is not fully dropped from this body-mind entity, "I" takes the ownership of whatever I do & therefore I accrue merits or sins. For going beyond the effects of Good & Bad Karmas, I have to follow the path of Karma Yoga as narrated in Bhagwad Gita by Lord Krishna or follow the path of Jnan Yoga & attain Self-Realisation.
OM
"Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"
No longer posting here
Namasté Devotee
Thank you for picking up on this. This is something I have been considering as I have come across various opinions on Ego (ahamkara) including:
1) Ego is part of Brahman and remains after enlightenment.
One reason for this it that it is due the operation of manas (rationalistation, doubting, thinking) working with chitta (memory, emotions). When the two interact then ego becomes active e.g. I am doing this. It is only when manas relaxes and buddhi (intellect) takes over that ego is also subdued for the time being.
2) Ego remains for some time until it "wears off". Perhaps due to prarabdh Karma which remains from pre-enlightenment desires (karma) and still needs to be spent or experienced. Or simply until ego is understood fully.
3) Ego exists until full dis-attachment. Which you kindly explain. This approach makes sense to me also in reflection to the commentary of Sri Sankaracharya where we are reminded to not become attached to worldly sense objects.
I would welcome comments.
Self Seeker
Namaste Snip,
Let me try to answer your questions :
Ego or that matter all thoughts or feelings & emotions come from Brahman alone. However, the difference is that then when "ego" (AhamkAr) is there, we don't call it Brahman. We must understand this subtle difference. There is basically no difference between a piece of Charcoal & a piece of Diamond ... both are essentially the same yet we don't call the Charcoal a Diamond. The AhamkAr arises in waking & dreaming states of the SELF & that is what this world is. When this AhamkAr falls then this world doesn't appear as world, then this "I" doesn't identify with the individual body-mind entity.
Does it remain after enlightenment ? What is enlightenment, first of all ? The eradication of all sense of duality is enlightenment, so how can ego survive ? There is no place for a separate "ego" in the fourth state. The person after attaining Self-realisation does live in this world, he does do the worldly tasks as others do .... but the doer is not someone who used to identify with the body-mind entity. The saying is that, "There is "doing" without a doer".
Buddhi is within this world. The Self in fourth state is beyond even Buddhi. It cannot be described by any term or combination of words.One reason for this it that it is due the operation of manas (rationalistation, doubting, thinking) working with chitta (memory, emotions). When the two interact then ego becomes active e.g. I am doing this. It is only when manas relaxes and buddhi (intellect) takes over that ego is also subdued for the time being.
Ramana Maharishi doesn't agree with this, though this theory is also put forward by some people. Ramana Maharishi says that this situation is like this : "A man has four wives. Saying that all the Karma becomes seedless except the prarabdha karma is like saying that after the death of that man, three becomes widow but one remains Sumangali (whose husband is alive) !".Ego remains for some time until it "wears off". Perhaps due to prarabdh Karma which remains from pre-enlightenment desires (karma) and still needs to be spent or experienced. Or simply until ego is understood fully.
Dis-attachment from sense objects is one of the steps towards Self-realisation ... it doesn't guarantee annihilation of ego. You may have conquered carnal desires but attachment to this thought that, "I have conquered my senses" may remain !Ego exists until full dis-attachment. Which you kindly explain. This approach makes sense to me also in reflection to the commentary of Sri Sankaracharya where we are reminded to not become attached to worldly sense objects.
Why should we work towards dis-attachment from worldly sense objects ? Because this attachment strengthens our identification with this body-mind entity. So, if we are working towards Self-realisation, this first step is a must. We cannot fill our pot with water from a pond unless we close the holes in the bottom of that pot ! Before these senses are curbed, it is not possible to focus the mind during meditation. It is not possible to get rid of restlessness produced by thousand of thoughts which are product of our attachment with this world. And these random thoughts are the barrier which keep us within our dreaming states oblivious of our True Nature.
The above may be taken only as my humble opinion/understanding formed from scriptures and sayings of enlightened beings. The exact nature can be explained by only an enlightened being which I am not.
OM
"Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"
तत्
The Taboo of Enlightenment
It appears to me that it is almost a taboo for a person to say they are a jivanmukta (self-realised or enlightened).
Perhaps to label oneself as enlightened would be to infer that individuals do exist (by the fact that we are different) and that an enlightened person should know better than to hint at such a thing.
It of course can be said that there is no such thing as an individual or enlightenment. It is avidya and Maya that veils. It does not mean that those who believe they are an individual will change on being told this, they may still feel a Guru is required.
Do we not risk stagnation as we wait for new fresh Gurus with the courage to tell the world they are enlightened to come along?
However most people refer to their Guru, so there must be people who have stepped up and offered their service.
I offer this slightly controversial post as I find the topic is one which is not so common and I would like to confirm if it is really a taboo to be a Jivanmukta in your opinion?
Second post
Namasté Brahman
There is only enlightened men from a dualistic perspective, i.e. it is wrong to compare Enlightenment with Enlightened people. Is that your point in your post? Please explain.
Jivanmukta is transcendental state
Do’s n don’ts for transcendent?
No, I don’t believe it Snip.
In my opinion
Do’s of the transcendent are ‘Sastras’ for us.
Don’ts of the transcendent are 'Nirvana' them.
Support from the sastras here.
gata-sańgasya muktasya
jńānāvasthita-cetasaḥ
yajńāyācarataḥ karma
samagraḿ pravilīyate (B G 4: 23)
TRANSLATION(please refer to your version as well)
The work of a man who is unattached to the modes of material nature and who is fully situated in transcendental knowledge merges entirely into transcendence.
ॐ
.
Jivanmukta
Namaste,
Sorry for the delay in my replies, I am having a tough time at school.
I was thinking about your question. I had the luck to be able to develop my spiritual self but this only happened, coincidentially, when I had just arrived to India, when I got the knowledge of what was the thing I experienced; 29 months after the experience.
Before the beginning of the grooming of the jivanmukta mentality I was in places and situations in the west that weren't conducive to any spiritual practice.
I was always, from 11 years old, a computer geek, but when I travelled to India as a Dharma student I started to be away from the pc because I didn't have the means to buy one and I felt that what was truly essential was the acquisition of knowledge to defend myself in a world that I saw as a very hostile world. Before I was very disorganized and unproductive with the pc, and I think that it had to do with the lack of any real culture and philosophy of life. It was a feeling like "Of what use learning anything or even doing anything with the PC if I don't know my real self?", I felt as if my life didn't have any meaning nor direction without self-knowledge and a philosphy of life.
Because of it, I weighed the two prospects, continuing a life of materialism without any culture, and not enjoying it at all, or keeping away from it for developing spiritually. The choice of learning things about Dharma has let me with a lot of time for doing it because of not being computing.
I continued with the hatha-yoga practice but trying to learn new techniques and I also did certain amount (generally no less than two hours daily) of knowledge cultivation. I studied the BG two times and the Ramayana and other books like Upanisads and sutras. I studied the Siva Purana, the Siva Sutras and the Spanda-Karikas. I also studied the life of Sakyamuni Buddha, and a small quantity of Vaisnava books. These were the things I studied in the first years.
I experimented with tapas, but when I readed about mantra-chanting on scriptures (eg: Sivapurana) I realized I was doing something in which I haven't done a deep research. First I chanted mantras only to attain samadhi (any type and quantity was good) but then I learnt that I should to do it for a purpose more concise than simple yoga. Otherwise I wouldn't be taking advantage of the mantra's power and benefits. And other thing that has let me thinking about how a complex practice tapas is, is that one is working towards a definite goal already with each mantra one chants. I think you know the way mantra chanting is awarded with very specific fruits, for instance, if you chant a determined thousand of times a mantra you get a body like Shiva's in your next life, that sort of technicalities I didn't know at first... I made some errors like chanting mantras in the street. I did it because I lacked motivation when indoors.
It is very sad how difficult it is to learn from books... still, all the dharmic knowledge I accumulated since I changed, it is from books. It is very small the quantity of knowledge learnt the right way (with sound) of the knowledge that I have. I make this note when talking about tapas because mantra and study of scriptures are both considered swadhyaya. I interpret that one method is for fruit, yoga and samadhi while the other is for yoga and jnana and application of that jnana. I liked to think that I could achieve samadhi reading. I strived to feel any type of samadhi reading, but only felt what I would calle the fag end of savikalpa.
I must confess that my personal story may sound very dissapointing for persons striving for liberation because I didn't matted in locks my hair and went to wander to the roads of India naked, with my locks as loincloth and a pot for receiving charity as only property, after the experience. I don't want to call it the stereotype of an illumined sage but that image I've just wrote is what I feel is commonly expected from one who witnessed the mind of God. To become a sannyasi. I am sorry for the bluntness of the image but I personally feel that spiritually and mentally I am treated in a way that is too-much inviting to that alternative, but I liked always to see the other extreme of the fact. If one, being a jivan, was capable of functioning in the world, how much more apt the liberated person finds oneself for the challenge.
I think I could groom the silence of God's mind more if I wanted, it just hasn't been so. Being westerner my psyche is deeply rooted in materialism. I am simply not satisfied with the simplicity and the way of life of a person who fancies to think that she or he lives in the Satyayug... this personality is the product of what meant to me knowing Dharma with orthodox Hinduism (gaudiya vaisnavism) and then involving all its teachings (and in my case also brainwashings and mental abuse) of the krishnas with tantra's welcoming oneself back to a (renewed) profound freedom to feel attachment to whatever one may want to be attached to, spiritual or not, but this time from a Godly perspective.
To tell you the truth, I haven't striven hard for feeling God's mind again. It may be that after knowing nirvikalpa I found savikalpa tasteless. That is other of things I note of myself, that once I attained nirvikalpa, reaching savikalpa becomes a knack. But one must try harder for nirvikalpa and I think two things made me think that it was pointless to pursue it: one, that I didn't want to be trying to reach nirvikalpa in a city (not even Pune, one of the places where I tried) and two, obviating the sad fact of having to experience it in a city... trying to achieve it for what purpose? Just to feel with more authority to claim it? No thanks, I saw it as a loss of time when I could be learning something in a swadhyaya of reading or chanting and also relishing, although as I said the not much essential for me, supported samadhi.
Returning to the subject of how to develop in society being a jivanmukta. I said that a jivanmukta is endowed with an advantage to everything in life. But when I started learning what I have become, I stoped letting the world condition myelf and I stopped letting others do their thinking for myself. To recognize my own wishes and be able to follow my own desire I had to learn more when I thought I already knew how to not be conditioned or programed by the world. Before I didn't have the power of viveka well developed pertaining thoughts, so I was easily manipulated. But that is over for half a decade now.
Somewhere I have read that as much one advances in knowledge of samadhi and its anciliary effects, more difficult is for oneself to progress and behave correctly in the material society. I admit of experiencing this, but take on account my situation. Of knowing (what I think as) heaven, Aryavarta, falling back to the barbarian world where I never felt at home. When I was living in India it consisted in my worst fear. It was scary because in India I was feeling for the first time in my life and I felt at home and I actually felt that I was accepted and given the opportunity to live with an full-blown, integrated mind. This is because in India I say that I didn't yet learn the most essential ways of practicing viveka. In india I was, sometimes, very deeply conditioned and manipulated also, but since I was living with an integrated mind I didn't realize it; day-to-day life was very, very sweet.
Yet, when I returned to mleccadesh I started to live isolated mentally because the mind that I had in India died; having to live at the heart of BsAs flesh industry was very unsuitable for it. I know how I felt in India and the way I was feeling after the return was a very different one. Needless to say that in not a single moment I felt my mind integrated to BsAs society, and how pretentious is the barbarian mind that it even lacks the discretion of trying to condition me subtly. In its demands and aims at condition and manipulate me it's blunt and obvious, so for the last five years I am living as a recluse and not being productive in mlecca society at all, just pursuing my own dreams. I am 32 years old and I am three exams shy of my highschool degree.
What before were ideals, like Aryavarta, Dharma and mukti now became a cause. Lately I am disliking the idea of, after 11 years of the experience, having few sources of knowledge about the experience to have a stock of knowledge not only to meditate by myself but to talk with others and discuss. This of having been liberated meant a new stance in the world, a (new) pivotal facet of my personality from which to see the world. Maybe the examples I am going to give are very obvious, but here they go.
Before I couldn't discern when I was being conditioned but now, with the viveka developed I recognize at once when I am being manipulated, programmed or conditioned and I have the courage to reject or argument against all of it.
Any time that I feel uncapable of doing anything, lacking anything, afraid or preoccupied by anything, remembering that I gave up these feeling when I started to know what I became, I reject the thoughts at once because I know that is a contrivance of whoever is trying to manipulate myself mentally.
I had to forget how to become scared. I started to feel the negative sensations as something quite unreal. And as I became convinced of this, on returning, each time I felt fear or depression or sadness I started to scrutinize these feelings and most of the times I felt that.
In India I started being reclusive, I think that it is inherent to my jivanmukta state to be obsessed with God and to hate dealing with people. Seeing beyond misery and degeneration in India I felt that I haven't seen any beautifuller place before. Constant novelty was very fun and it felt totally superior to any novelty before for everything being intrinsically godly. But not even the deeply emotive eeriness of India could stop me from being reclusive.
It was very gratifying to find later that this of starting to love reclusion instead of the world is quite a very auspicious sign, it means one has stopped being a tamasic pashu (herd oriented).
Then, as I returned I started to experience a return to old ways of degradation and an almost complete disconnection from Dharma and a sense of anything dharmic done being useless for the principle of one being unable to reap benefits from any tapas or kriya in a place that is barely 200 meters from an illegal swine slaughterhouse, or fifty meters of other aberrations of the sub-human race, like cow meat packing plants, that around here are the norm. Here there is I think zero possibilities of developing a personal relation with samadhi. Here the situation is very serious: a crowd of sub-human laborers the great majority of them living the life of pigs.
Nevertheless I haven't stopped having a minimum of essential dharmic practices in my daily schedule. That the environment is doomed doesn't mean that I am. That's the ungodlys' problem. Progress is very slow due to the resentment of mlecca society that tries to hinder one constantly, but I must admit that for a jivanmukta, I have realized it, the principle of fruitless tapas is not relevant.
I see good fruits to my yogic practices. But respecting the grooming of knowledge on God's mind I can't give you any more hints than the ones I already expressed in this post, I haven't found the occasion, and more importantly the place, to try it without feeling questionable. Please understand that for me it is as if I was Arjuna in Kuruksetra war and instead of surrendering to what God wants (me to fight) I would try to sit on the chariot in lotus position and start concentrating to realize samadhi.
My reverences,
Ma nastoke.
Murkha Jana मूर्ख जन
Bholenath, I truly hope you are still around, you have such a beautiful story.
As a recluse I do understand what you are saying, from my heart this soul does feel your story as my own.
But I try desperately to embrace this society around me. Despite my inclination to hide away and just be with God...myself...the children...my husband...all kindred kind and do not harm me.
It is then I am reminded that everytime one of those beings out there impacts with me, I impact with them. The barbarian is God...and my impact helps him along his way. Seek them and infect them with knowledge.
Unfit is the perfect word to describe how I feel about my interaction with others. We have a saying in Kentucky that one becomes "Touched". Once touched you can never undo it. I am infact touched this way.
Only then did I realize the other portion of this phrase is never added until you become so. Touched by God.
This is such a blessing to this world.
I am not even fit to post here in this wonderful forum, but I do so...painfully exposing my own ignorance and innocence and awaiting the impact of ones who will help steady my direction.
I am not even fit to move in the corrupt gross physical world outside my beautiful hill.
But I seek it anyway...because I know that the infection comes from both sides. They can try to change you, but can they?
...and you can change them...oh yes...it happens.
It is fortunate in my philosophy that dealing with people is doing the dirty work...it is dealing with the most impure aspects of the souls development. God does love this work. I feel it's my service here.
It's painful, silly, smelly, ugly, beautiful, disgusting...and awesome.
Awesome.
Once as I child I was impacted by two beings. One was Buddhist, one was devotee of Krsna.
I was told by a well meaning Mother that they were Satan worshippers.
But these friends were holy, kind and I knew in my heart that their life was not evil.
My box became cracked...the box I was born in was very fragile....it was cracked from birth.
Every time a more enlightened being impacted with my box...it cracked a bit more.
Until one day I became touched myself.
Now, out from the box into the light of God...I must return this duty and impact with others.
Often, I am hurt from the encounter...but always I know that the task must be done.
I will do this, until the day I impact and there is nothing left of me, then I will be truly enlightened.
Prya Tamah Sivaya commands this.
Om Namah Sivaya<3
*Hugs* to the kindred kind<3
Last edited by NayaSurya; 01 May 2010 at 10:24 AM.
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